Finding Alien Life And Changing Religious Philosophies

[zazz54]

Well moontanman, that's a bold statement; that "the Bible is so far from the truth it staggers..." and you know this, how? Because you say so? Back up your assertion, and please spare me the diatribe about alleged contradictions. I really would like to hear your take on it, I look so forward to it.

[CraigD]

… Unless there was a StarGate

Did they [other beings] come in craft that are ftl?

Hypography being a science site, albeit one with a theology forum, it’s critical we’re careful to avoid common failures of understanding science. One of these failures leads to an overly credulous expectation that faster-than-light travel (including wormholes, stargates, and similar tunneling schemes) is physically possible.

 

In modern physics, there’s no assumption that FTL travel (either of objects like spacecraft, or of just an information-carrying signal, or either via "wormholes" shorter on the “inside” than the “outside”) is impossible. If, however, FTL travel/communication is possible, it’s a direct consequence of Special Relativity that it can be used to send objects or messages into the past, which, absent some sort of “censorship” to prevent it, leads to causality violations - for example, a person might send a message into their own past warning of an injurious accident they experienced, allowing them to avoid it.

 

An explanation of this is pretty complicated – the best I’ve read is Richard Baker’s 2003 page Sharp Blue: Relativity, FTL and causality.

[zazz54]

I agree Craig. I don't see anyone that have come up with any plausible theory for traveling ftl. When I wrote the statement about whether 'other beings' came here in craft that could travel ftl, I was being facetious. I quite realize the effects of such a possibility.

 

So with our understanding of physics and 'relativity,' the question(s) might be; are angels real and how did they travel here? Did they even have to travel to here from anywhere else in the universe? Now if science has concluded (and I don't think it has) that GOD, His angels, and supernatural events never happened, how does science explain?

 

As far as that goes, is Einstein's relativity theory, which now postulates on some very substantial experimental data, against the grain, so-to-speak? I mean if some of these supernatural events have taken place, such as, angels coming from somewhere "up there," does this defy the theory? 

Edited October 26, 2014 by zazz54

[Moontanman]

Well moontanman, that's a bold statement; that "the Bible is so far from the truth it staggers..." and you know this, how? Because you say so? Back up your assertion, and please spare me the diatribe about alleged contradictions. I really would like to hear your take on it, I look so forward to it.

 

 

Well I have read it, several times both completely at one time and many times as I have looked up scripture. The bible is a tale of horror about a psychopathic being that kills humans as though they are annoying insects and demands his followers commit atrocities like rape and pillage, genocide, he condones child sexual slavery and slavery in general. The list goes on and on, I would suggest you sit down and read it for what it says instead of trying to twist it's words to mean what you want it to mean..  

 

The bible gets lots of stuff simply wrong, the earth is not a flat disc under a crystal dome, stars cannot come down from the sky and fight someone, there was no world wide flood, genesis is not an accurate description of how the world is formed, all plants and animals were not spoken into existence in their present form, bats are not birds, rabbits do not chew cud, displaying striped patterns to a pregnant goat will not result in striped  offspring, I am not going to kill my neighbor is he works on the Sabbath, I don't think stoning people to death is moral, a rape victim should not have to marry her rapist, the list is long and sad, in fact the bible gets noting right except the names of a few cities and maybe some rulers.  

Edited October 26, 2014 by Moontanman

[zazz54]

Moontanman; there is not much one can say to somebody that believes as you do, for you will find negative connotations no matter what truth you read. I would wonder why you hate as much as you seem to. Short of saying that you are a liar, I'd say that you are desperately mistaken. For instance: that GOD, and I assume you meant GOD, when you wrote, "...demands that his followers commit atrocities like rape and pillage..." There is nowhere in the Bible that GOD demands this. The "genocide," is harder to explain. Suffice it to say that those he demanded be exterminated were basically child murderers, murderers of others and practiced things that even today might pale in comparison - though, ISS is coming close.

 

For me, it is easy to see the correlation between those that read the Bible, and as they take out of context the words therein, find it dissatisfactory or compellingly arrogant, or absolutely unbelievable - they have a life that refuses to think there is anything outside themselves that is, say, supernatural, or spiritual. They do this because of some other external influence - whether that be their own environment growing up, or as they got older, began to delude  themselves with false premises in education, or just plain evil company.

 

I have had discussion with many scientists, and they are not quick to come to the conclusions you seem to have. As Carl Sagen himself said before he died, "How can I call myself an atheist; that would presuppose that I knew for a fact GOD doesn't exist, and since I cannot, I won't." At this moment, I can't cite the reference where he said that, but I'll look.

 

For if one reads the Bible with the assumption that GOD loves human beings, as well as His creation in the universe, the reading will become more enlightening.   

Edited October 26, 2014 by zazz54

[zazz54]

BTW, I looked at your youtube channel after I wrote the above comments. I could see immediately where your bent, bends. Interesting that I wrote something about atheism, since you have the David Silverman video about such things.

 

It was Joel Achenbach of the Washington Post that quoted Carl Sagen in 1996, who said: "I am not an atheist. An atheist is someone who has compelling evidence that there is no Judeo-Christian-Islamic GOD. I am not that wise, but neither do I consider there to be anything approaching adequate evidence for such a GOD. Why are you in such a hurry to make up your mind? Why not simply wait until there is compelling evidence?"

Edited October 26, 2014 by zazz54

[Deepwater6]

Z54ZZ your reaction to Moontanman's depiction of the Bible leads me to think you have brought a religious agenda to the forum. I hope that's not the case.

 

The thread has drifted off topic. originally it was discussed that if microbial or intelligent life were found would it shatter current religious underpinnings? Would religious conservatives be forced to see their Gods with a completely new mindset or not at all? We have drifted into a discussion about what the Bible is supposed to mean to us.

 

Although I don't mind that particular subject, please open it up in it's own thread.

[zazz54]

Deep6, I can say unequivocally that I brought no particular agenda. I would think however, that even if I had, it shouldn't be a real problem for you guys; you seem to be smart individuals.

 

Nevertheless, I'm more of an interested party, both listening and participating when possible, as it concerns scientific discussion, and observations. My background is as a newspaper editor and investigative journalist. I'm semi-retired now, and dabble into things that I have always had interest in and studied when I could, and though I didn't have a lot of time during my career years, I managed to get a little more than basic knowledge about many subjects. I really wouldn't be semi-retired at all at this time in my life, if it hadn't been for a lung disease that is slowly killing me. I don't write any of that for any kind of sympathy - don't need any.

 

But to put more of a point on this discussion; you wrote, "I am of the opinion though, that religions will not accept proof of life outside our planet even if scientist can confirm it..."

 

I came back with questions directed to you, such as, what religions are you talking about? and others.  There were answers by others, not really direct, but it didn't really matter, at least to me, for the conclusion is the same; what more could you say about the subject; 'there are some so-called religious individuals that will not believe no matter what.' What else did you want to discuss? Was my next question and then suggested topics. And I thought to myself, I should just start another topic, but I thought I'm the new guy on the block and I didn't want to presume that I had that option and that the subject might still have other worthy input, so I continued to respond to what others wrote. 

 

Now privately, I would be happy to share where I come from - as far as what my "credentials" are. And you would find almost immediately that when someone attempted to control my conversation, or tell me that I couldn't say this or that, it got put on the front page in large bold headlines.

 

I do indeed understand forum "protocols," and I wouldn't presume to undermine them or any rules that may have been uttered, but censorship because of what one may or may not believe, don't fly with me. Now I understood what this topic was about from get-go, and could see it might not get too far; if anything, you got some input that you might not have. But, if you don't care to have me aboard your happy little ship, I guess there might be other forums that aren't afraid to get into the water and go through a few squawls together. Just say the word friend.

 

I'm not here to preach; I might be able to teach a thing a two, just as I expect that you all should be able to teach me a few things, but I don't separate my science from my GOD, so if that's a problem, well....   

[Deepwater6]

Z, You seem like a very educated person and this isn't about the new guy. I'm glad your here, the more points of view we have the more we can all learn. I have seen wolves in sheep's clothing on this site before and they are not always easy to identify at first. If you tell me that's not the case I believe you. I try to trust everyone until they give me a reason not to. There is often disagreement here, but it's kept fairly civil so welcome to Hypography

[zazz54]

Thank you. I'll do my best not to disappoint you or the others. I may however, disagree with you on occasion.

[sanctus]

Buffy and Moon, I think your statement about interbreed with aliens being completely impossible is too strong. The likelihood of it I agree is very low, why would a more evolved species want to do that and find humans attractive. But if aliens, managed to get to earth, it is quite a safe assumption that their level of science is much higher than ours. So no good argument against them being able to genetically engineer a version of themselves able to interbreed...

[zazz54]

For the sake of argument, let's assume the 'aliens' came here, and indeed, interbred purposely. Why, is the question, is it not?

[Floppy]

Buffy and Moon, I think your statement about interbreed with aliens being completely impossible is too strong. The likelihood of it I agree is very low, why would a more evolved species want to do that and find humans attractive. But if aliens, managed to get to earth, it is quite a safe assumption that their level of science is much higher than ours. So no good argument against them being able to genetically engineer a version of themselves able to interbreed...

I doubt aliens speak English though so we shall never know their level science unless we find an invasive procedure to investigate their brain :P

[Deepwater6]

I wrote something yesterday and swore I hit the post button, but couldn't find it on the thread. When I go back to the view new content tab sometimes this thread is missing. Thought it was my old age, but maybe we are having a site problem.

[Deepwater6]

I quite by accident tend to watch the Ancient Aliens series because it broadcasts on the H2 channel so often. Most of the show seems way out there if not down right BS to sell commercials. It is however, a long running show and by some of the titles it seems they are running out of topics. Lately I've seen titles for upcoming shows that are completely pie in the sky. Bigfoot and ancient aliens??

 

Some of the shows reps claim ancient aliens came to earth searching for minerals. They insist when they got here they found this primitive race (us) and used it to mine these minerals. After they arrived they realized extracting the minerals was a lot of work and needed a large labor force.  So it was a real blessing that our race was here. It would have been a real bummer if they achieved interstellar travel, got all the way to earth, and only brought a couple of shovels. I would think if they overcame the challenges of getting here they would have a technology to get the minerals out themselves, but that's just me. This would probably give the mission a better success rate instead of hoping there is a primitive race on site when they arrive. But who knows they could have been a gambling race by nature.

 

Aside from those issues how eager would we be in forming into labor groups for the benefit of a God who's ship just entered our atmosphere? If it happened to our ancestors they may have been in awe, but I don't think they would drop everything to do the aliens work unless the aliens were putting food on the family table. Hunger can overtake awe fairly quickly.

[zazz54]

The story is from Sumerian cuneiform tablets. Zachariah Sitchen is the scholar who translated them. The story goes that the ETs came, genetically engineered a race of apes into mind-numbing video game players, then exacted tribute by way of gold. Seems they needed their gold to produce energy or something like it, elsewhere. The human race became slaves until one of the "god's" decided his colleagues were asking too much of the poor human creatures and revolted. There was some kind of battle - kinda like in the movie, Titans, or whatever that title was.

 

It led to stories by the Greeks and others about god's and ancient man. Now there is a guy on the history channel, with hair that looks like he was pulled from his mother's womb by the hair, and it stuck throughout his life. He's about as credible as a cockroach with the ability of speech.

 

Personally, I don't watch the history channel; seems the impetus for airing the diatribe is as someone has said, to sell Pepsi. And neither do I watch any of the series called "ancient aliens." They have taken what might be a subject worthy of study and made it into a side show with the hair guy and David Childress, a would-be scholar who may believe that the ancients played with virtual reality videos.

Edited October 27, 2014 by zazz54

[Moontanman]

Moontanman; there is not much one can say to somebody that believes as you do, for you will find negative connotations no matter what truth you read. I would wonder why you hate as much as you seem to. Short of saying that you are a liar, I'd say that you are desperately mistaken. For instance: that GOD, and I assume you meant GOD, when you wrote, "...demands that his followers commit atrocities like rape and pillage..." There is nowhere in the Bible that GOD demands this. The "genocide," is harder to explain. Suffice it to say that those he demanded be exterminated were basically child murderers, murderers of others and practiced things that even today might pale in comparison - though, ISS is coming close.

 

For me, it is easy to see the correlation between those that read the Bible, and as they take out of context the words therein, find it dissatisfactory or compellingly arrogant, or absolutely unbelievable - they have a life that refuses to think there is anything outside themselves that is, say, supernatural, or spiritual. They do this because of some other external influence - whether that be their own environment growing up, or as they got older, began to delude  themselves with false premises in education, or just plain evil company.

 

I have had discussion with many scientists, and they are not quick to come to the conclusions you seem to have. As Carl Sagen himself said before he died, "How can I call myself an atheist; that would presuppose that I knew for a fact GOD doesn't exist, and since I cannot, I won't." At this moment, I can't cite the reference where he said that, but I'll look.

 

For if one reads the Bible with the assumption that GOD loves human beings, as well as His creation in the universe, the reading will become more enlightening.   

 

 

Yes I am an atheist, I never pretend to be anything else and yes i have read the bible several times, now I will provide the scriptures to back up what i asserted and I expect you apologize for insulting me by claiming atheism makes me dishonest, I would also like to point out you do not know what atheism is, atheism is just that I do not believe the claims of theists, I make no assertion as to whether or not god exists. I also expect a withdrawal of this statement:

 

For me, it is easy to see the correlation between those that read the Bible, and as they take out of context the words therein, find it dissatisfactory or compellingly arrogant, or absolutely unbelievable - they have a life that refuses to think there is anything outside themselves that is, say, supernatural, or spiritual. They do this because of some other external influence - whether that be their own environment growing up, or as they got older, began to delude  themselves with false premises in education, or just plain evil company.

 

 

 

You have absolutely no basis in fact for this statement and including me who you do know anything about is an insult as well. 

 

As for this:

 

For if one reads the Bible with the assumption that GOD loves human beings, as well as His creation in the universe, the reading will become more enlightening.   

 

 

 

If you presuppose something before you look into it then you are not doing anything but showing a conformation bias.

 

This statement needs a citation please.

 

I have had discussion with many scientists, and they are not quick to come to the conclusions you seem to have. As Carl Sagen himself said before he died, "How can I call myself an atheist; that would presuppose that I knew for a fact GOD doesn't exist, and since I cannot, I won't." At this moment, I can't cite the reference where he said that, but I'll look.

 

 

 

I doubt it very much that a man as smart as Sagan didn't know the difference between atheist and anti-theist.. 

 

Now for your reading enjoyment:

 

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded.  "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

 

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.  Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.  Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes.  For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off.  The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows.  They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.  (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

 

This is what the Lord of  hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt.  Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban.  Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.'   (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

 

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men.  All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle.  They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.  Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder.  They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived.  After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

 

    Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.  But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded.  "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

 

 

 

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

 

     As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

 

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

 

    If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

 

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker?  Answer: God.

 

 

There is lots more but the God of Abraham does indeed demand and condone murder, rape, and genocide.

 

Now i suggest you stop proselytizing and read your holy book instead of allowing others to tell you what it says...  

 

As for Carl Sagan:

 

http://brijux.com/2011/08/25/ann-druyan-carl-sagan-wife-talks-about-his-death-and-afterlife/

Edited October 28, 2014 by Moontanman