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If I were King.....


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This system has the advantage of almost self striating... Those with abilities tend to gravitate to the areas in which they excell. This applies to those with abilities that are not specifically academic as well.
Fish- this sounds a little like the way we manage univertiy curriculum here. You have general ed requirements, and then specifics for a degree. Is there a significant quantity of general ed in the high school curriculum? (math, english, history)? It would seem that would have to be over half of the curriculum at the high school level.
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I was in the Natural science line. I took, english, french, history, clac, physics, chemistry and biology. It seemed that the basic academic skills (such as grammar) were already expected to have learned by high school. Also Since we had the same set of students in every class, most lessons were integrated to a degree.

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I was in the Natural science line. I took, english, french, history, clac, physics, chemistry and biology. It seemed that the basic academic skills (such as grammar) were already expected to have learned by high school....
Emphasis added. It seems to me that this is our core problem, and that we do a poor job of imparting basics. Most kids graduate high school now with only a cursory knowledge of grammar, weak math skills and nearly no knowledge of geography or history. It seem to me that the core problem is to make an 8th grade graduate functionally literate in the core subject so that the student could begin to focus. What grade(s) do/did you teach in Texas?
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7th and 8th... but hopefully no more.. I am trying to get a job as a zookeeper at the FT Worth zoo.
Best of luck on the zoo position. When do you hear the good news?

 

Do you think a voucher system would drive public funded schools toward better performance? Particularly elementary?

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Do you think a voucher system would drive public funded schools toward better performance? Particularly elementary?

 

I think in the long run it could work, but it will wreck all kinds of havoc when it would first be instated, and I feel it would take a few years to actually achieve the desired results, but in the interim the students that were left from the "urban flight" would be in a very poor situation.

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IMO I am a big advocate of the European gymnasium system of education...

 

For those that are unfamiliar with the system; here is a quick synopsys. (At least the medodology applied in Sweden that I experienced). Grade school is very similar. In the basic equivalence of 8th grade there is an exam. Based on scores, there is a basic split. There is a division from students that pursue academic venues and those that go down vocational lines.

 

In "high school" you are divided into "lines". Essentailly programs with specific interests. The lines available vary somewhat from school to school, but there are usually a few broad areas. Humanity lines that vary from history, art, languages specialization (A Finnish frind of mine even was in a Dancing line). Scientific lines (Broken into technical [hard sciences, more math and physics] and Natural science lines [more biology, chemistry forused]).

 

Each line had classes that you went to almost all your classes with the same set of students.

 

FT, I think this system sounds extraordinarily better than our current standards. The only concern I have is that we are used to treating children here essentially like they are... children. As in, we tend not to let them make drastic life decisions at that age. If they screw around on this test and end up in a line they despise, is there any way to switch over later if they prove they can do the work? Is this test more or less like a proficiency test; does it also involve a personality/psychological test to evaluate the individual's life preferences and what they may want to do with their lives, or is it just sort of whatever parts they excel in naturally (or have learned by that point) is where they land for the rest of their lives? I would really love to see some responsibility put on children - I think the less we give them, the worse they do in school and subsequently in life - and I would be all for giving students tests like that. Something they would be immediately responsible for. I believe that this would give them something to work for, something to be proud of, I suppose, and I think they would certainly realize the importance of it if they knew they had to do well on it or suffer for many years to come (by being placed in an area they did not enjoy or perhaps there were a certain line they would prefer to be in that required more study before the test, etc).

 

I agree that our schools need help - and after someone recently shared this article (from 2002) with me, I feel so exponentially more strongly. Apparently 11% of our own American students can't locate the United States on a map...but they did know where the island in Survivor is. If that doesn't scare a few people, then I think there is nothing left to be scared about. :hihi:

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/11/1120_021120_GeoRoperSurvey.html

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I would like to see a more radical overhaul of education. I'd like to

take a big step back and rethink it from the beginning. I believe that

the goal of education is, or should be, to prepare young people to

function as adults. To pursue that purpose I would ask what kind of

learning would best prepare them for their future roles? What do they

need to know most?

 

Traditionally schools begin with basic literacy. Reading writing

and arithmetic. No argument there. I guess you've got to begin

with the basics. But granting that what is the next priority?

 

I believe that the most important decision every person makes

in their life is choosing a career, or choosing to not choose a career.

But one way or another just about everyone has to deal with it

except maybe my son the prince, who will be king one day after

I'm gone.

 

Women may choose in large numbers to marry and become

homemakers. That is also a career. And I'm sure many women

choose it because they feel it's expected of them. And might not

choose it if they were better informed of the alternatives.

 

What I'm getting at here is the need for people growing up to

be better and more fully informed about the realities of the

workaday world.

 

There is such an enormous number of possibilities to choose

from and I feel that for the most part young people have only

the vaguest idea of what specific careers entail. Television and

movies no doubt have a lot of influence. But the impressions

they convey are in the context of a drama and so, obviously,

they are dramatized. They don't give a true to life impression.

 

There are just so many and varied possibilities, so many types

of employment that each person should be informed about and

consider that I have come to believe that this should be the focal

point of education and should be part of the curriculum from the

first year of school.

 

And going on from there to add additional subjects of study, again

the question should be considered from the standpoint of what

is most essential to the life of a successful adult.

 

What comes to mind secondly is the problem of marriage, of a

successful marriage. That study could wait until high school

and may not need to be carried on for more that one year but

I do believe people would benefit from a knowledge of what

factors in a marriage most often precipitate divorce. What are

the most typical mistakes people make when choosing a mate

and what kinds of marriages are most successful?

 

In a similar way I think it would not be too soon to teach some

fundamental facts about raising children, about parenting. In any

case, if it isn't taught in high school, it's not likely to be taught

anyplace else. And just a little education and understanding

could prevent an awful lot of damage to young children.

 

What else? How about problems of adolescence

to help kids get to know themselves better?

 

I could go on but I'll add just one more for now - Thinking Skills.

Teach thinking skills because up until know thinking, at

least in my experience, is largely discouraged except

for some of the more progressive schools.

Instead of thinking, students are encouraged to remember

and repeat. That does tend to train them to be docile,

easily managed adults and maybe there is some benefit

in that but still . . well, enough, what do you think?

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g'day folks,

 

Fish : what, in your view, are the strengths and weaknesses of education in Texas as against your preferred ideal?

 

Bio: wonder what you feel is relevant in the following?

 

Parameters for public education, in no particular order except, perhaps, the first.

a. determine who is responsible for establishing the principles and running the system

b. ensuring a functional next generation

c. enhancing an individual's development, (Irish Eyes' dream)

d.trying to ensure a suitable minimum general knowledge and cultural understanding in the interests of social cohesion. The cynics might say in the interests of the elite etc.etc.

 

Some issues that need addressing:

1. Whatever the system, teacher morale.

2. Set pragmatic goals that stand a chance of being achieved.

3. Ensure variety of both goals and methods of delivery as our history shows the "one size fits all" definition of rationality is oxymoronic.

 

That'll do for starters, perhaps some of the above may help frame some of the discussion,then again perhaps it won't. More than a little interested in some of our continental friends' take on this issue and what about the situation in Japan Jerry? Downunder, we keep hearing about educational related suicides at the end of secondary schooling. cheers gub.

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what about the situation in Japan Jerry? Downunder, we keep hearing about educational related suicides at the end of secondary schooling. cheers gub.

So you've been hearing about that have you?

I guess it still happens but to tell the truth I

haven't been paying much attention to it. I

work in the much less stressful field of adult

education and seldom pay much attention to

events in Japan. Seems like you know more

about it than I do.

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This was a good post, JB, but I think the core probloem is still here:

...Traditionally schools begin with basic literacy. Reading writing and arithmetic. No argument there. I guess you've got to begin with the basics....
No one can be considering any higher level desicion about career, vocation, or avocation without some basics. Our core school system problem is still that kids acan't read, and that is at high school graduation.

 

I agree with Niv that personal responsibility is the fundamental requirment. I think that personal responsibility is usually instilled by parents. The socialogical problem is to provide a solution for kids that do not have motivated parents. This chain of irresponsibility creates a long term underclass.

 

Thoughts on motivating parents?

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Bio: wonder what you feel is relevant in the following?

 

Parameters for public education, in no particular order except, perhaps, the first.

a. determine who is responsible for establishing the principles and running the system

b. ensuring a functional next generation

c. enhancing an individual's development, (Irish Eyes' dream)

d.trying to ensure a suitable minimum general knowledge and cultural understanding in the interests of social cohesion. The cynics might say in the interests of the elite etc.etc.

 

Some issues that need addressing:

1. Whatever the system, teacher morale.

2. Set pragmatic goals that stand a chance of being achieved.

3. Ensure variety of both goals and methods of delivery as our history shows the "one size fits all" definition of rationality is oxymoronic.

I think these are all good elements, Gub, I think if parents were allowed to choose the school for their children (breaking the unmotivated monopoly that is the majority of US schools) it would help significantly.

 

The open issues are:

 

1) how to handle kids with special needs (like disabilities) without requiring all school systems to provide redundant expensive speciality services (I would suggest giving these kids larger "vouchers" to fund their access into specialty schools)

2) how to get the best outcome for kids that do not have parents that make good desicions for their kids (I have no solution to this one)

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g'day Bio,

 

2) how to get the best outcome for kids that do not have parents that make good desicions for their kids (I have no solution to this one)

 

Neither does anyone else, especially me, but for the western democracies where compulsory education is a sacred cow on a par with motherhood, no motherhood's increasingly just an option these days, perhaps it's an issue that can no longer be left in the political too hard basket. cheers gub.

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Thoughts on motivating parents?

That seems beyond the scope of the educational system and

might be more appropriate in some other branch of government.

I think teachers must stay focused on the students and the

curriculum. That's a teacher's job.

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