C1ay Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 What is wrong if totaly insisting that there was a God and Heaven, and (in my case) believing that the Devil exists and that having faith and trust in Jesus as personal Lord and Savoir is the only way to Heaven, and finding out that when life ends, it's over..no more..or youcome back as somthing else? Nothing. What is wrong with insisting that there is no god or high power..and not making any move in the direction, and finding out that you where wrong, and there is a God and a Heaven and Hell? a lot more than nothing...So is "safe than sorry" a bad conclusion? an agnostic that cannot make up his/her decision wastes out of time as life goes on to the untimed end.Believe what you want but don't try and tell everybody else that you're right and they're wrong as you try to shove your beliefs down their throat. You claim that it's a fact that God exists yet you can't prove it so your claim is frivolous. If you're only interested in faith and people that agree with you then maybe you should visit someplace like ChristianForums.com. Here we use science and people are not going to just agree with you just because you say it is so. If you make claims here you will be challenged to support them. Such is science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindagarrette Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 What is wrong with insisting that there is no god or high power..and not making any move in the direction, and finding out that you where wrong, and there is a God and a Heaven and Hell? a lot more than nothing...So is "safe than sorry" a bad conclusion? an agnostic that cannot make up his/her decision wastes out of time as life goes on to the untimed end. It's my impression that most people claim to believe in God because they are afraid of the consequences if they don't. It's possible that if there weren't the fear of Hell to contend with, virtually no one would be a believer. In my opinion, that's the worst reason of all to place trust in. It's like having a father who is so insecure he has to beat his little children senseless if they make him angry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eMTee Posted May 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Well Clay...you may not find "evidence" in "science" (in which I totaly disagree) But you find evidence in expearience for this stuf..but sence you are limited to "science", and with every explanation given you find another thing to question it...you will not ever even consider the possabuility of it being true It's not science that makes your decision that there is no god, but your lack of consideration. I feal as if maybe if you where facing it in the face, you would not see it, because you will not want to see it. I might be able to give you all the proof in the world...but I know it is not I who decides what you believe, but yourself. How was I shoving my beliefs down your throat by saying what I sayed in that last post? If I mearly mentioned it...would I have done the same thing?...probably acording to you an others. compared to me last post...talking about christianity being shoved down your throat...I could say that evolution and atheism is being shoved down the throats or thousand of kids every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eMTee Posted May 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 It's my impression that most people claim to believe in God because they are afraid of the consequences if they don't. It's possible that if there weren't the fear of Hell to contend with, virtually no one would be a believer. In my opinion, that's the worst reason of all to place trust in. It's like having a father who is so insecure he has to beat his little children senseless if they make him angry. you clearly take the content out of context, especualy here...In my opinion, that's the worst reason of all to place trust in. It's like having a father who is so insecure he has to beat his little children senseless if they make him angry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Well Clay...you may not find "evidence" in "science" (in which I totaly disagree) But you find evidence in expearience for this stuf..but sence you are limited to "science", and with every explanation given you find another thing to question it...you will not ever even consider the possabuility of it being true It's not science that makes your decision that there is no god, but your lack of consideration. I feal as if maybe if you where facing it in the face, you would not see it, because you will not want to see it. I might be able to give you all the proof in the world...but I know it is not I who decides what you believe, but yourself. I've considered it for longer than you've been alive having lived twice your life already. Thus far I've seen no proof of any God, only claims of Gods to explain away things than man didn't understand at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eMTee Posted May 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 I am sorry you feal that way....But I guess stories from people about their lives and how they where changed..and the "Miraculous" things that happened to them, just don't cut it...even if it's true. what you may say is that all christians are liers when they mention it..and all have become week minded, gullible to symple explination. I don't know how else to proclaim it's reality, if you are the way you are. But I will not consider my trying a waste of time. it is souly based on your decision...is scientific evidency is the only thing you will accept? science is matreial evidence...But God goes beyond that. The God of the Bible is a loving careing God that will quickly give you grace if you believe and ask. I do not give you this because I'm working my way to heaven threw it...I have a desire to share the gospel...sorry that I am shoving my beliefs down anyone's throat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 One small point here. Creation is about the origin of life and competes with theories like abiogenesis. Evolution is not about the origin of life, it's about the development after the origin. Debating creationism vs evolution is comparing apples and oranges.Actually, while Genesis creationism deals with the creation of life, it does so in a way that makes evolution impossible. And the rest of that particular creation mythology makes pretty much anything from astronomy to geology impossible. Their religion is worthless when it comes to explain and describe the universe and our world. It goes against many other accepted and well supported theories from other fields of science as well. Evolution is not the only one that has to go. Geology, archaeology, paleontology, astronomy, cosmology, and even physics, meteorology and linguistics are all affected if creationists get to have their way. Flat Earth, the sky is a fundament... When it comes to methodologies, it is indeed like apples and oranges. Religion is not science, but sometimes its claims can be tested with science, with lousy results at worst, and irrelevant at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 It's my impression that most people claim to believe in God because they are afraid of the consequences if they don't. It's possible that if there weren't the fear of Hell to contend with, virtually no one would be a believer. In my opinion, that's the worst reason of all to place trust in. It's like having a father who is so insecure he has to beat his little children senseless if they make him angry.And if they are blackmailed to believe, then surely it's not a real belief - just empty rituals to get a higher probability to get to heaven. I'm also not sure why anyone would worship this god of the Bible. Accept me or go to hell, he says, but does nothing to convince us he's real and therefor possible to accept in the first place. Evil or stupid, evil or stupid...? Sure, people say it's all about faith. But, that would mean I'm expected to believe in and worship a god that I have no evidence that he exist. That's what faith is. And the more evidence you have, the less faith you need. The less evidence you have... well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eMTee Posted May 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 And if they are blackmailed to believe, then surely it's not a real belief - just empty rituals to get a higher probability to get to heaven. That statment is so true..I agree with it 100% Evolution is not the only one that has to go. Geology, archaeology, paleontology, astronomy, cosmology, and even physics, meteorology and linguistics are all affected if creationists get to have their way... Acualy, you are wrong, the only THEORY that would have to go is evolution, and the long age carbon dating method, I have no problem with the sciences, the Bible has no problem with the sciences and the learning of.Evolution is not science, it is a theory of origin of life history, so called based on the study of "science". there is a lot of information that rings true in the evolutionist's evidence found, as long as you don't get into evolution, and how a fish turns into a whale. (creationists and evolutionists have the same evidence, but only look at it two diffrent ways.) Science speaks...there is no evidence of anything turning into somthing else, besides the ones who already do, such as the maggot into a fly. ...Flat Earth, the sky is a fundament... The Bible does not suport a flat Earth, it says that the Earth is a balanced sphere floating in space. It says that the sky is a firmament...not a fundament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biochemist Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 It's my impression that most people claim to believe in God because they are afraid of the consequences if they don't....It has never been my main motivator, but that is a topic for a different thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biochemist Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Believe what you want but don't try and tell everybody else that you're right and they're wrong as you try to shove your beliefs down their throat. You claim that it's a fact that God exists yet you can't prove it so your claim is frivolous. ...C1ay- I read MT's post and thought it was a valid philosophical position. I don't happen to agree with that premise, but the "hedging your bets" model for conversion has been dicussed in many contexts. I did not see MT as prosletyzing, just advocating a point of view. I do think this discussion belongs in a different thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eMTee Posted May 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 I'm also not sure why anyone would worship this god of the Bible. Accept me or go to hell, Actually, you are somewhat correct..but in your analogy, you are saying that the God of the Bible is this slave owner holding a whip in his hand saying “Do it or else!” The Bible, when coming to Heaven, Hell and salvation, Likens God to a just and holy God, who only expects perfection…but he is also loving, because he sent his son Jesus Christ (geology supports the crucifixion story by going along with what the Bible says). God wants true followers, so he set down only one way..and that is faith and trust in his son. Says a father to his son..don't touch the outlet, but the son does, and is shocked. …he says, but does nothing to convince us he's real and therefor possible to accept in the first place. Evil or stupid, evil or stupid...? Well, you do not accept what I have to say as proof. When you say “evil or stupid?” what are you saying..is that what the Bible says? Or is it that you ask “is evil, evil, or just plain stupidity?” I think it is both. Sure, people say it's all about faith. But, that would mean I'm expected to believe in and worship a god that I have no evidence that he exist. God does not leave you blind in this, he makes himself known by the miracles he does, in which you SAY there is no proof of, you need material evidence of these?…there is, such are the things and happenings that one runs into…when I told you about the car story, this is a true story told by a man who is not telling a lie..and still say that that is not proof enough, what is then? The study of science and the more you learn about it should proclaim that this world was no created by random evolution events..but threw intelligent design. Some (if not most) of the greatest scientists or all time, did not go for evolution. Did Einstien's belief in creation and God get in the way of science? He is knows as the greatest science mind in history..to creationists and evolutionists alike. And the more evidence you have, the less faith you need. The less evidence you have... well. The Bible does not leave you blinded in the dark when it comes to knowing that the Bible is reliable in its historical claims, The events happened.. such as the Hebrews crossing the Red Sea, and the Egyptians plunging into it, How was it so that this happen? Well…the Hebrews might have crossed the land bridge when the water level was low, (seeing that it goes up to your waist at low tide) they had young kids and old adults, wagons and animals..they where a large crowd..and why is only chariots found on the bottom along with some of the bones of the possible drivers?…and why are most (if not all of the wheels) randomly laying separated from the chariots? (which goes along with the Bible saying that God caused the wheels to come off their axils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 The Bible, when coming to Heaven, Hell and salvation, Likens God to a just and holy God, who only expects perfection…but he is also loving, because he sent his son Jesus Christ (geology supports the crucifixion story by going along with what the Bible says). God wants true followers, so he set down only one way..and that is faith and trust in his son. So, only saved christians are allowed and all the believers (and disbelievers) of all of the other religions are going to hell? Yep, sounds loving to me :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queso Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 haha, i love it. I LOVE IT! religion is so funny!!! that made my morning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumab Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 I do think this discussion belongs in a different thread. Definitly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Acualy, you are wrong, the only THEORY that would have to go is evolution, and the long age carbon dating method, I have no problem with the sciences, the Bible has no problem with the sciences and the learning of.Actually I'm right. Doesn't the Bible teach us the universe and the Earth are 6000 years old? Well, that doesn't go well with what we know regarding the age of both. Current cosmology estimate the age of the universe to 14 billion years, and Earth (and the rest of the solar system) to 4.6 billion years. The evidence from all these sciences support these views. We also know that all life was not created within one single week. There are verses in the Bible that suggest the Earth is flat, and that it does not move. So yes, observations and theories from many scientific fields are simply not compatible with the Bible - whether we want it or not. Didn't god punish Adam and Eve and therefor the entire humankind (unbelievably unjust!) because they found out more knowledge regarding right and wrong? Evolution is not science, it is a theory of origin of life history, so called based on the study of "science".The theory of evolution is a scientific theory regarding life, not the origin of life. Why is it not a science? Is it because evolution has been observed to happen in the past and in the present? In nature and in laboratories? there is a lot of information that rings true in the evolutionist's evidence found, as long as you don't get into evolution, and how a fish turns into a whale. (creationists and evolutionists have the same evidence, but only look at it two diffrent ways.)Creationism is not science in the least. It has, in the western world anyway, its foundation in an ancient myth. It describes things that simply did not happen. If you can find any evidence in nature that supports the Genesis and invalidates the observations that support evolution, then present them. Science speaks...there is no evidence of anything turning into somthing else, besides the ones who already do, such as the maggot into a fly.Has been observed. The Bible does not suport a flat Earth, it says that the Earth is a balanced sphere floating in space. It says that the sky is a firmament...not a fundament.Didn't it say that it was a circle at one point? And yes some verses suggest a flat unmovable Earth. How the sky is a firmament is beyond me. Oh, and it really doesn't matter what the Bible says... what matters is what nature says. That is how science is being done, not by consulting ancient tribal myths written by people who certainly knew much less than we do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eMTee Posted May 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 So, only saved christians are allowed and all the believers (and disbelievers) of all of the other religions are going to hell? Yep, sounds loving to me If a "christian" does not take Jesus to be their personal savior, but depends on their belief in a god or good works to get into heaven...then they are not christian...no matter if they call themselves one or not. Salvation is by faith and not of works, lest anyone should bost. For all have sinned and fallen shors of the kingdom of heaven... this is the Bible says, and I place my faith on it for multiple reasons...I can explain to you what the Bible means in this subject for as long as i try...but I see that you want see christianity being like every other religion out there. your view of it is distorted, but such is expected. this "religion" is a unique "religion", no other one is like it. The Bible is proven historicaly accurate in several of its detailed stories, and there has not been found geological evidence proving it to be fake in its historical claims, it has been uniquely preserved down threw the ages and translations, it is also the oldest book known to modern day. It has also been proven true in it's claims having to do with science. no other religous book can claim such. I have faith in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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