Jump to content
Science Forums

The Truth Concerning The Untruth


Hans Bjelke

Recommended Posts

The Truth Concerning the Untruth

 

Every human who has looked out at the night sky and who understands what a star is has also admitted to themselves that the universe is immense, possibly without end, and that in all the cosmos there could never exist a magic mythical being that created everything. The idea in and of itself is preposterous. To believe in a theory or concept that could never be proven is beyond unethical, but is at its core, a diabolical contrivance and a perversion of the thought processes, medieval and primitive, and ignorantly dismissive of all modern, developed, and logic based thinking.

To deny the truth is in itself a lie. We who have ever claimed faith in god at all know in our deepest thoughts that we only do so primarily to please our families and piers, fearful and sometimes self righteous, we dare not admit our true feelings to those we trust and love or those we believe we need for sustenance and validation. We know to do so would expose us to ridicule, pious judgment, and condemnation.

As we observe the cosmos through a telescope and our sense of wonder and amazement awakens, we cannot deny the innermost instinct of knowing we humans are not alone in this the Stelliferous Age, armed with the secure knowledge that the existence of intelligent life is mathematically and axiomatically assured, we are sure to feel self consciously foolish for ever doubting science at all, and sheepish for not giving credit where credit is due.

To those we owe true reverence and gratitude; the scholars of science and engineering, the aviators, the global explorers, the adventurers, the social revolutionaries, and astronauts who paved our way to the knowledge, democracy, and technology of our world today. If you think you need a martyr to justify and make worthy a yoke to bear for yourself and all the world, choose instead to learn from these exceptionally aware folk, who have sacrificed with all their passion and energy, to bring light, prosperity, and scientific enlightenment to our planet. Acknowledge and invest in these intelligent and dedicated stewards, who have at times burned with inspiration as hot and as bright as the stars that illuminate our world.

-Hans Bjelke 01-30-2012

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We who have ever claimed faith in god at all know in our deepest thoughts that we only do so primarily to please our families and piers...
No, some people actually do believe in a creator and they are not afraid of ridicule.

 

Could you tell us how it could have been astronauts that helped pave the way to democracy? This is just one of the things in your post that strioes me odd. I don't find it any better than the reasoning of religious people and it even comes across as preaching, which is beyond the purpose of Theology Forum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, some people actually do believe in a creator and they are not afraid of ridicule.

 

Could you tell us how it could have been astronauts that helped pave the way to democracy? This is just one of the things in your post that strioes me odd. I don't find it any better than the reasoning of religious people and it even comes across as preaching, which is beyond the purpose of Theology Forum.

 

 

...there being at least a few United States flags on the moon might quantify as astronauts spreading democracy. To know me is to find me to be the chief stink stirrer in my crowd. Fortunately, I no longer beleive in things spiritual, or that souls exist, or in any religion. It (religion) was tortured out of me at an early age. But from the stand point of those so inclined, any theology that does not stand up to criticism would be without merit anyway. What say you?

-Hans

Link to comment
Share on other sites

... I no longer beleive in things spiritual, or that souls exist, or in any religion. any theology that does not stand up to criticism would be without merit anyway. What say you?

-Hans

 

That I wait for better definitions!

 

Whether, say , "soul" exists or not depends on how we define it.

 

Just for fun: Let it be the "subconscious" of our subconscious.

 

Ps your nick sounds Swedish, are you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...there being at least a few United States flags on the moon might quantify as astronauts spreading democracy.
What you said was:
...the scholars of science and engineering, the aviators, the global explorers, the adventurers, the social revolutionaries, and astronauts who paved our way to the knowledge, democracy, and technology of our world today.
So, you were not talking about democracy on the moon or any other world and you included astronauts as pavers toward that which, in this world, has a history somewhat older than the Cold War (and don't forget the rival astronauts of the totalitarian regime). This is just one detail of those that struck me odd in your post, I mentioned this one because it seemed the most amusing of them.

 

To know me is to find me to be the chief stink stirrer in my crowd. Fortunately,
Trolling is a great way to get banned from here.

 

But from the stand point of those so inclined, any theology that does not stand up to criticism would be without merit anyway. What say you?
I could agree if you meant criticism more worthy than your inaccurate ranting without nexus.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What you said was:So, you were not talking about democracy on the moon or any other world and you included astronauts as pavers toward that which, in this world, has a history somewhat older than the Cold War (and don't forget the rival astronauts of the totalitarian regime). This is just one detail of those that struck me odd in your post, I mentioned this one because it seemed the most amusing of them.

 

Trolling is a great way to get banned from here.

 

I could agree if you meant criticism more worthy than your inaccurate ranting without nexus.

 

I think u guys fail to understand each other,

but that might of course be a misunderstanding on MY part.

 

Take the case of the Flag on the Moon...

 

"So, you were not talking about democracy on the moon or any other world and you included astronauts as pavers toward that which, in this world, has a history somewhat older than the Cold War (and don't forget the rival astronauts of the totalitarian regime). This is just one detail of those that struck me odd in your post, I mentioned this one because it seemed the most amusing of them."

 

? What IS it, that "has a history somewhat older than the cold war"?

 

Is it safe to assume "Tyranny" is meant?

 

So what you mean,then, is that the American Flag on the Moon

was placed there in order to celebrate Tyranny?

 

Or do you mean that Hans Bjelke thinks so?

 

Ive never seen "Hans Bjelke" before, I suspect he is a Newcomer and a joker,

(if swedish, his name is roughly translatable as "His Piece of Wood").

 

You Sir, are No Newcomer nor a Known Joker, you are expected to express yourself in a clear an understandable manner... Perhaps you did, but IF I cannot make head nor tail of your text... Then how can the possibly repeatedly harassed newcomer Hans Bjelke?

 

Doesnt something in your own text and reasoning strike you as odd and amusing?

 

What did you mean with "trolling"?

Is it entering confusing and/or abusing text?

Is sarcasm trolling?

 

Perhaps the term "inaccurate ranting" is a discreet approval of Hans Bjelkes text?

 

Maybe, but i will not apply it xx yours, since i find it insulting, and somewhat American.

 

SO! WELCOME TO HYPOGRAPY, WE ALL, APRICIATED YOUR STAY HANS!

 

Now be a nice little "Troll"

And enjoy your return

to the beautiful "wood"

of Northern Sweden :)

 

PS Sarcasm Warning!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Truth Concerning the Untruth

 

Every human who has looked out at the night sky and who understands what a star is has also admitted to themselves that the universe is immense, possibly without end, and that in all the cosmos there could never exist a magic mythical being that created everything. The idea in and of itself is preposterous. To believe in a theory or concept that could never be proven is beyond unethical, but is at its core, a diabolical contrivance and a perversion of the thought processes, medieval and primitive, and ignorantly dismissive of all modern, developed, and logic based thinking.

To deny the truth is in itself a lie. We who have ever claimed faith in god at all know in our deepest thoughts that we only do so primarily to please our families and piers, fearful and sometimes self righteous, we dare not admit our true feelings to those we trust and love or those we believe we need for sustenance and validation. We know to do so would expose us to ridicule, pious judgment, and condemnation.

As we observe the cosmos through a telescope and our sense of wonder and amazement awakens, we cannot deny the innermost instinct of knowing we humans are not alone in this the Stelliferous Age, armed with the secure knowledge that the existence of intelligent life is mathematically and axiomatically assured, we are sure to feel self consciously foolish for ever doubting science at all, and sheepish for not giving credit where credit is due.

To those we owe true reverence and gratitude; the scholars of science and engineering, the aviators, the global explorers, the adventurers, the social revolutionaries, and astronauts who paved our way to the knowledge, democracy, and technology of our world today. If you think you need a martyr to justify and make worthy a yoke to bear for yourself and all the world, choose instead to learn from these exceptionally aware folk, who have sacrificed with all their passion and energy, to bring light, prosperity, and scientific enlightenment to our planet. Acknowledge and invest in these intelligent and dedicated stewards, who have at times burned with inspiration as hot and as bright as the stars that illuminate our world.

-Hans Bjelke 01-30-2012

 

Hans, You may very well be right about all that. I don't know. One thing that I can tell you is that I received a lot more ridicule when I was thumping people with my bible than when I wasn't. It seems to me that these days, Christians, and people of other faiths get a lot more ridicule than the secular.

 

I fully agree that even trying to contemplate the vastness of the universe, or the miracle of life leaves one very humbled. With or without a faith in some sort of creator.

I am an admittedly simple man with very little formal education. The people here on this site are intimidating to me in their grasp of things like mathematics and philosophy. But there's one thing that I'm pretty sure of in spite of my limited grasp of things great and wonderful. That's that with my little human brain, I will never be able to do anything but get little glimpses of understanding into the wonders of the Universe. I will never be able to know enough to claim categorically that there is no God. In some ways I envy you in your surety. In other ways I don't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hans, I find your OP interesting, but largely opinion and pseudo-philosophy. Perhaps that is down to the brevity of your exposition: more flesh on the bones might transform the piece. Here are some specifics I found troublesome.

 

Every human who has looked out at the night sky and who understands what a star is has also admitted to themselves that the universe is immense, possibly without end, and that in all the cosmos there could never exist a magic mythical being that created everything. The idea in and of itself is preposterous. 01-30-2012

This is demonstrably false. There are many theists who have an intimate knowledge of cosmology and stellar astrophysics who find no difficulty in believing in a God. So, your opening statement has the dual weakness of being firstly an opinion, and secondly wrong.

 

To believe in a theory or concept that could never be proven is beyond unethical, but is at its core, a diabolical contrivance and a perversion of the thought processes, medieval and primitive, and ignorantly dismissive of all modern, developed, and logic based thinking.

You will need, I suspect, a lengthy chain of logic to demonstrate that believing in the unprovable is 'beyond ethical'. Does this mean, for example, that string theorists are currently evil?

 

Belief in cooperation and mutual support and care for the sick and elderly and weak were all concepts whose benefits, at one time, could not be proven. Does this mean those who adhered to such beliefs were evil?

 

I also find it amusing that while condemning belief in God you seem quite happy to blame unsubstantiated belief on the devil. (..a diabolical contrivance...)

 

To deny the truth is in itself a lie. We who have ever claimed faith in god at all know in our deepest thoughts that we only do so primarily to please our families and piers, fearful and sometimes self righteous, we dare not admit our true feelings to those we trust and love or those we believe we need for sustenance and validation. 01-30-2012

Again this is demonstrably false. Dare I suggest you are speaking very personally here? This describes why, at one time, you claimed to have faith in God. Whether or not that is the case I cconcede that some people think this way, but it is most certainly not all.

 

As we observe the cosmos through a telescope and our sense of wonder and amazement awakens, we cannot deny the innermost instinct of knowing we humans are not alone in this the Stelliferous Age, armed with the secure knowledge that the existence of intelligent life is mathematically and axiomatically assured, we are sure to feel self consciously foolish for ever doubting science at all, and sheepish for not giving credit where credit is due.

This is an error of fact. You are trying to extrapolate the existence of other intelligent life from a sample size of one. This is not bad science, this is superstition. While it seems probable that life is to be found elsewhere in the universe we cannot state this with the certainty that you have done. Such certainty is can only be derived from faith - I thought you were against that, so it is odd to see you using it here as the cornerstone of your argument.

 

To those we owe true reverence and gratitude; the scholars of science and engineering, the aviators, the global explorers, the adventurers, the social revolutionaries, and astronauts who paved our way to the knowledge, democracy, and technology of our world today. If you think you need a martyr to justify and make worthy a yoke to bear for yourself and all the world, choose instead to learn from these exceptionally aware folk, who have sacrificed with all their passion and energy, to bring light, prosperity, and scientific enlightenment to our planet. Acknowledge and invest in these intelligent and dedicated stewards, who have at times burned with inspiration as hot and as bright as the stars that illuminate our world.

Well, it is very poetic, but it seems contrived to appeal to the emotions, rather than to reason. Once again that is surprising from one who ostensibly is arguing for reason over emotion. It is too easy to pick holes in your argument, as presented. The global explorers: the ones looking for lands to conquer and people to subjugate. These are people to be admired? The social revolutionaries: people like Stalin, an inveterate socialist. The scholars of science: such as the doctors in the US who left untreated blacks suffering from syphillis in order to study the progress of the disease.

 

Clearly not all, nor evern most, explorers, revolutionaries and scholars fall into these negative categories, but the fact that some do renders your impassioned speech simply that: an impassioned speech,, not a beacon of reason and science.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

I fully agree that even trying to contemplate the vastness of the universe, or the miracle of life leaves one very humbled. With or without a faith is some sort of creator.

 

 

 

If I may Preach:

 

The Proper Definition of "God"

 

approximately is:

 

Reality and/or whats behind it.

 

Watching the face of god

 

paralyses us in awe

 

and admiration.

 

Hi Mom!

 

Why are we here? :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

why not both, i believe in wonder and awe

 

while i search for truth, i ponder the infinate

 

i could say i am ken

or i could say, well i could be 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

 

which equals ken

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What IS it, that "has a history somewhat older than the cold war"?
Since you often claim to be versed in logic, it is astounding every time you show such inadequate logical skills. It was a logically trivial exercise to glean that it referred to democracy.

 

If you're unfamiliar with the term troll then just look it up, and then leave such matters to staff members. If you seriously think my post is inappropriate, report it and it will be discussed by other admins as well as mods. Now try to remain on track with the topic of the thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it is astounding every time you show such inadequate logical skills. It was a logically trivial exercise to glean that it referred to democracy.

 

 

I was sarcastic... I felt sympathy for Hans!

 

And I think you misread him.

 

So the strongest negation of democracy was "somehow" selected.

 

But i didnt think you were consciously harassing.

 

I think you were ...careless. Can happen to us all.

 

By the way, would you care to back up that claim of yours?

 

Where do I show the "Inadequate logical skills",you find astounding?

 

And why did you not point them out before?

 

Such places are in dire need of clarification and/or revision!

 

And I will be happy to do some "house cleaning" :)

 

Hey!

 

Didnt we meet before? Didnt you enter "The Final Solution of the Liar"?

 

Didnt you claim there was nothing "new" to find in it?

 

Didnt you forget to back up that claim?

 

Did I trace you down to ask for your backing it up?

 

One basic claim I made was:

No derivation of the Liar paradox is correct.

There is a logical error in it!

 

I dont remember you telling me who said that before I did!

 

-Show me a supposedly correct derivation,

and I will show you where and how it errs!

I may have said...

Maybe you "forgot" to return and explain?

 

Now you have the opportunity to show your skill.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

has also admitted to themselves that the universe is immense, possibly without end, and that in all the cosmos there could never exist a magic mythical being that created everything.

 

Would it be fair to say Hans (and I hope you don't mind me bringing it up) that everything you learned about a mythical being was tainted by your father's hypocrisy?

 

To believe in a theory or concept that could never be proven is beyond unethical, but is at its core, a diabolical contrivance

 

This makes far more sense as wars, suffering, disease clearly shows a diabolical contrivance not a "benevolent" creator.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would it be fair to say Hans (and I hope you don't mind me bringing it up) that everything you learned about a mythical being was tainted by your father's hypocrisy?

 

 

 

This makes far more sense as wars, suffering, disease clearly shows a diabolical contrivance not a "benevolent" creator.

 

 

In reply to Explaining:

A. There are astrophysicists and cosmologists who find difficulty with any theology or belief in god.

B. Belief in evil as an unethical act or concept is not a confirmation that one believes in the devil.

C. Believing that misguided religiosity can be a form of diabolical contrivance does not also confirm that one believes in the devil.

D. Extreme fear of revealing a lack of faith in god or a disbelief in god to ones family, piers, or support group might lead one to fool oneself into believing or claiming otherwise.

E. I am not motivated by faith in the belief in intelligent extraterrestrial life, rather I am motivated by a lack of arrogance, which assures me that such life would exist if not by irrefutable mathematical probability, but also such life must exist if only to counter the often but not always monumental ignorance and sometimes but not always abhorrently brutal behavior attributable to our species.

F. In regards to social revolutionaries and other leaders; who would you chose to lead in a world where no leader with any philosophy is with out the defective human frailties, misguided crusaderist motivations, and the egotistically warped quirks of all those who have led in every movement in history (for example; the illicit love affairs of Newt Gingrich, JFK, and Martin Luther King Jr. to name but a few).

G. I will not argue further the opinions put forth in my post. My motivation is not convince anyone to change their minds, I only ask that we examine and question our world view. My views are formed from the net result of my experience, ability, and education. I would not expect any person to have the exact same views.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In reply to Explaining:

A. There are astrophysicists and cosmologists who find difficulty with any theology or belief in god.

B. Belief in evil as an unethical act or concept is not a confirmation that one believes in the devil.

C. Believing that misguided religiosity can be a form of diabolical contrivance does not also confirm that one believes in the devil.

D. Extreme fear of revealing a lack of faith in god or a disbelief in god to ones family, piers, or support group might lead one to fool oneself into believing or claiming otherwise.

E. I am not motivated by faith in the belief in intelligent extraterrestrial life, rather I am motivated by a lack of arrogance, which assures me that such life would exist if not by irrefutable mathematical probability, but also such life must exist if only to counter the often but not always monumental ignorance and sometimes but not always abhorrently brutal behavior attributable to our species.

F. In regards to social revolutionaries and other leaders; who would you chose to lead in a world where no leader with any philosophy is with out the defective human frailties, misguided crusaderist motivations, and the egotistically warped quirks of all those who have led in every movement in history (for example; the illicit love affairs of Newt Gingrich, JFK, and Martin Luther King Jr. to name but a few).

G. I will not argue further the opinions put forth in my post. My motivation is not convince anyone to change their minds, I only ask that we examine and question our world view. My views are formed from the net result of my experience, ability, and education. I would not expect any person to have the exact same views.

 

Hi Hans!

 

When did you decide to choose your own way in life?

 

You seem young.

 

Still worried about the effects on your dear ones?

 

Wounds will heal.

 

Our only contact with Reality is the Mental Map,

 

in our heads.

 

Its rather like a medieval map of the Earth (= the World?)

 

Filled with Dragons,

 

And Monsters!

 

Theres a lot of cleaning up to do, so go ahead!

 

And tell us all about it. :headbang: :wub:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...