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The standard Paradigm, for those who believe in Evolution is that somehow man's ancestors gradually grew bigger Brains--thus allowing them to cogitate better--and deeper.....

 

While this supposedly led to better survival.

 

Human Beings don't have the ultimate conceivable Biological Brain yet, at least I don't think so.

 

Read some of the Brilliant popular books on Mathematics by folks like Gardner.

 

Numbers like Pi, or e, or the Golden Ratio turn up again, and again and again--in apparently unconnected venues.

 

No one knows why. We can't even say if Abstract Mathematics are "Real" or simply very complicated games that we invent--and that are sometimes serendipitously useful in understanding the World at large.

 

There is a lot of controversy over what IQ is exactly, what is the best way to measure it, and what factors create it.

 

Nonetheless, lets assume--for the sake of argument--that IQ is a 100% valid measure of Data Processing Power, as well as the ability to spot hitherto unnoticed connections among "Things" with no obvious connection.

 

In other words, the higher your IQ, the more frequently you will experience "Eureka!" moments, and the more likely your "Eureka" moments are to turn out to be major Paradigm Busters.

 

Average IQ is 100. IQ of 140 or more is Genius. Some Scientists insist that once you have classified someone as a Genius, that's all the farther that you can go.....

 

That there are no meaningful comparisons that you can make, of one Genius to another.

 

Nonetheless, some testers have declared that Marilyn Vos Savant has the highest IQ recorded at 225--Which would mean that she is almost twice as smart as me.

 

So what if we could come up with a Brain--or mind--with four times the IQ of Marilyn--900 points.....

 

God knows how a mind like that would function.....

 

But many things are difficult to figure out, but that once they are understood--much less gifted folks can follow the explaination.

 

(Let's call our hypothetical Genius "M4".)

 

We give M4 a few textbooks on Number Theory and a copy of Riemann's Conjecture, and he's solved it in a half hour. In the process, he's spun off a half-dozen other unproven Conjectures that will be just as interesting and fruitful.....

 

Only he intends to solve all them tomorrow.....

 

But right now he's going to Mathematically prove the minimum Computing Power that you'd need to create true artificial intelligence--And give a rigid formula that tells you how close you can come to true AI with a given system, and a Cookie-Cutter Algorithm that lets any half way good programmer write the best case system, working with the system that he has...

 

All right--Here is the meat of the Whole thing:

 

Ethical objections beside the point, how would you get such a Superman?

 

A Chimps Brain weighs about 450 Grams. A Human Brain weighs about 1350 to 1450 Grams.

 

What if we understood Genetics almost perfectly, and we added a Chimp Brain to a Human Brain?

 

1450 Grams+450 Grams+1900 Grams of Brain tissue?

 

Tilt! ***

 

A Bigger Brain would necessarily be a Slower Brain--all else being equal.

 

Apparently, streams of data criss-cross the brain several times in the course of Data Processing--speed will be inversely proportioned to size.

 

We all have a reaction time, and most of the time we are totally unaware of it.

 

Monty Hall's old trick with the falling 100 Dollar Bill demonstrates the reaction time quite well. Fast draw artists--both the live-ammo set, and blank shooters are very aware of it. When we first learn to drive, it is easier to learn proper follow distances, if we have an understanding of reaction time--though once we master it, its all can be done unconciously

 

Ken Kesey once said that we're all at least 1/32nd of a second behind Reality, and that we're watching, and creating our own Movie.

 

We don't often feel like we're stuck in a replay, hopelessly behind the curve.....

 

Unless we're Schizophrenic, on LSD-25, or some sort of Idiot-Fringe Philosopher.

 

But if we were 1/16th of a second, or 1/10th of a second behind Reality--it would be very noticable.

 

Never mind that our 1900 Gram Brain Superman might be too awkward to pitch and catch a baseball, dribble a basketball or walk briskly up some stairs.....

 

But he might very well feel numb and largely isolated from the outside World.

 

Never mind that he'd need noticably more sugar/Oxygen than normal Human's, with his Big Brain to feed.

 

But there is another facet that I want to examine.

 

I believe that the more Intelligent a person is, the more capable he is of stimulating himself with Phantasies and Dreams in his inner mind.

 

How many Intellegent "Nerds" have you met, who were obsessed with Star Trek or Lord of The Rings or Dungeons and Dragons?

 

Fact is that many Intelligent people are daydreaming almost every waking moment, and largely ignore the outside World.

 

 

"1900" would be even more inclined to Daydream his life away--I think.

 

Well, you know how the Medulla resembles a Primitive Brain Stem, The Cerebellum is almost a complete "Reptile Brain", and then there is the Cerebrum--Mammals really shine in Cerebrum Development--Humans most of all.

 

What if we could shrink the Human Brain a bit--and have the "Medulla, Cerebellum" in a discrete subset tasked with liaising the Body with the outside World? I'm guessing, but I think a Chimps Brain would be perfectly adequate to "Run" a Human Body--but we needn't be too stingy.

 

The rest of the Brain is added tissue--added strategically to give the best results--that exists soley to thing deep abstract thoughts--to cogitate.

 

The whole brain decides to go play Baseball--but the "Chimp Brain" handles all the pitching, catching, etc.

 

While its not required, you might find that such a Brain might have three distinct levels of consciousness.

 

#1 Would be Sleep--just like we experience.

 

#2 Would be ordinary consciousness--This would include the Augmented Chimp Brain as well as whatever parts of the Super-Cerebrium were needed to maintain a Personality--and hopefully even in this state, we'd have a noticeably higher IQ than Humans.

 

And Finally,

 

#3 Would be a state that we only enter into where we're relatively safe, optimally behind closed doors

 

Where we're unlikely to be interrupted by Foul Balls, Saber-Toothed Tigers, Hailstorms and biting Insects.

 

And the World shouldn't be tuned out--but the Lion's share of the the attention is turned inward, and massive amounts of Data gets Crunched, Threats are Assessed and Long Term Goals are set.

 

The rest of the time--what, does all the extra Brain-Power wasted? Hopefully not.

 

1900 won't have a "One-Track Mind"--but a Two Track mind--Janus-Faced--one focused on the External World, the other constantly Conceptualizing.....

 

Its just when large parts of the Brain are devoted to "Out There", the processing speed of the inner thoughts slow way down--but they're still making slow progress.

 

********************

 

Now, as I say, I'm assuming that I know exactly which Genes that I have to tweak, to get the Brain that I want.....

 

But there is some uncertainty exactly how such a Brain would function.

 

What would I want to try first?

 

This is the Phun Part.

 

I realize that some popularizers drastically exaggerated the degree to which our Brain Hemispheres are specialized--but nonetheless, even with an intact Corpus Callosum, there is a bit of Dualism.

 

I would want to definitely bulk up the Broca Region, and any other language centers--and also, make sure that they also developed to their full extent in both Hemispheres.

 

Whatever areas are crucial to spotting and recognizing patterns would also be bulked up.....

 

But as well as bulking up the Hippocampus and the Anterior Commissure, I would really really bulk up the Corpus Callosum, but I'd also increase it's size until it became another lobe of the Brain in it's own Right--a long thin lobe lying between the two Hemispheres--

 

About the size, shape and mass of a Hotdog--maybe even a Jumbo Frankfurter.....

 

And it would be largely devoted to the Functions that some Meditators call "The Observer".....

 

i.e. When you sit quietly, concentrating on one's Breath and Heartbeat, and diligently trying to eliminate any thoughts that arise, if they don't relate to observing breathing.....

 

If you ask yourself--What is it that both watches me Breathe, and also watches me, watching me Breathe--What is that?

 

That is "The Observer".....

 

anyway, the Observer seems to be our actual "Selves". It would be very interesting to see what the Observer could accomplish, with another 2 to 4 ounces Hotdog shaped Brain Cells.

 

Anyway, that's some of my speculations.....

 

Interested in hearing y'alls thoughts.

 

Saxon Violence

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Neuroscience For Kids   on the general idea of brainsize/intelligence, this is only a part of our intelligence. besides our brain size/body size difference from chimps for example , the human brain ha

Here are several disparate thougths on the foregoing:   First, slightly off topic the OP says "The standard Paradigm, for those who believe in Evolution is that somehow man's ancestors gradually grew

sperm whale 1 to .13684   human 1 to .01700   bee 1 to .011     so you say we are slightly smarter than the bee   i still say that its based on learning and the ability to record and with that abilit

No one knows why. We can't even say if Abstract Mathematics are "Real" or simply very complicated games that we invent--and that are sometimes serendipitously useful in understanding the World at large.

It is thought that mathematics is an invention by some - that these ideas didn't exist until they

were brought into existence. Yet another camp (philosophy) is that mathematical theorems are

actually discovered -- that they always existed. Take your pick.

 

There is a lot of controversy over what IQ is exactly, what is the best way to measure it, and what factors create it.

Nonetheless, lets assume--for the sake of argument--that IQ is a 100% valid measure of Data Processing Power, as well as the ability to spot hitherto unnoticed connections among "Things" with no obvious connection.

In other words, the higher your IQ, the more frequently you will experience "Eureka!" moments, and the more likely your "Eureka" moments are to turn out to be major Paradigm Busters.

Average IQ is 100. IQ of 140 or more is Genius. Some Scientists insist that once you have classified someone as a Genius, that's all the farther that you can go.....

That there are no meaningful comparisons that you can make, of one Genius to another.

Nonetheless, some testers have declared that Marilyn Vos Savant has the highest IQ recorded at 225--Which would mean that she is almost twice as smart as me.

So what if we could come up with a Brain--or mind--with four times the IQ of Marilyn--900 points.....

God knows how a mind like that would function.....

But many things are difficult to figure out, but that once they are understood--much less gifted folks can follow the explaination.

(Let's call our hypothetical Genius "M4".)

We give M4 a few textbooks on Number Theory and a copy of Riemann's Conjecture, and he's solved it in a half hour. In the process, he's spun off a half-dozen other unproven Conjectures that will be just as interesting and fruitful.....

I abridged this so as not to repeat everything. Most of what you describe didn't take

into account is efficiency. That this whole process is linear in scope. It is likely not.

The current thinking in brain research is that the cerebellum is like a parallel

processor. It is associated with your motor skills and your fast thinking.

 

On another note is the analysis of Einstein's brain. The only thing found different

in his brain than a normal brain was the number of connection per neuron. He had

a lot more than usual. The thought goes that this allowed him to think deeper on a

problem.

 

So to get to 900 IQ might not be needing 10x the brain mass as 10x the connections

and then some (it might 10,000x for all we know -- aka Einstein).

 

The third point I would like to make is it also thought that we do not

currently use all of our brain today.

 

Fourth maybe something like our IQ testing process is only so accurate at actually

measuring our actual "intelligence".

 

So you put all that together and when we make contact with another civilization,

it will definitely be a humbling experience. One that I'm not sure everyone is

ready for.

 

maddog

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Here are several disparate thougths on the foregoing:

 

First, slightly off topic the OP says "The standard Paradigm, for those who believe in Evolution is that somehow man's ancestors gradually grew bigger Brains--thus allowing them to cogitate better--and deeper....." I really dislike this as an opening sentence since it plays into the anthropocentric hands of the creationists. From an objective standpoint humans are not an especially interesting subject within evolution. Opening this way sets the wrong ambience for the discussion.

 

Second, as maddog has pointed out it is not so much the size of the brain, but its structure that is of major importance.

 

Third, can you provide any support for this contention "Some Scientists insist that once you have classified someone as a Genius, that's all the farther that you can go....."

 

Fourth, this statement is total nonsense: "The third point I would like to make is it also thought that we do not currently use all of our brain today."

We use all of our brain, just not simultaneously. This serious error devalues the rest of your post by calling into question the validity of your other points.

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Fourth, this statement is total nonsense: "The third point I would like to make is it also thought that we do not currently use all of our brain today."

We use all of our brain, just not simultaneously. This serious error devalues the rest of your post by calling into question the validity of your other points.

Maybe I wasn't speaking accurate enough. My bad.

 

I was stating what has been what is known as

 

"You only use about 10% of your brain". I have heard percentage dropping as time passes with

newer research. I suppose I could have more correctly stated that was speaking of the "power"\

of the brain, not it's literal apportionment.

 

maddog

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Maybe I wasn't speaking accurate enough. My bad.

 

I was stating what has been what is known as

 

"You only use about 10% of your brain". I have heard percentage dropping as time passes with

newer research. I suppose I could have more correctly stated that was speaking of the "power"\

of the brain, not it's literal apportionment.

 

maddog

 

Neuroscience For Kids

...Where Did the 10% Myth Begin?

 

The 10% statement may have been started with a misquote of Albert Einstein or the misinterpretation of the work of Pierre Flourens in the 1800s. It may have been William James who wrote in 1908: "We are making use of only a small part of our possible mental and physical resources" (from The Energies of Men, p. 12). Perhaps it was the work of Karl Lashley in the 1920s and 1930s that started it. Lashley removed large areas of the cerebral cortex in rats and found that these animals could still relearn specific tasks. We now know that destruction of even small areas of the human brain can have devastating effects on behavior. That is one reason why neurosurgeons must carefully map the brain before removing brain tissue during operations for epilepsy or brain tumors: they want to make sure that essential areas of the brain are not damaged. ...

 

on the general idea of brainsize/intelligence, this is only a part of our intelligence. besides our brain size/body size difference from chimps for example , the human brain has a decidely different structure size/deveopment associated with thinking.

 

Human and NonHuman Primate Brains: Are They

Allometrically Scaled Versions of the Same Design?

Allometric analyses of brain structure sizes across the primate order demonstrate

that human, ape, and other anthropoid brains are not simply allometrically

scaled versions of the same generalized design. Both human and ape brains

exhibit specializations with respect to other anthropoid brains. Ape specializations

include elaboration of the cerebellum (all apes) and frontal lobes (great apes only),

and probably connectivity between them. Human brain specializations include an

overall larger proportion of neocortex, with disproportionate enlargement of prefrontal

and temporal association cortices; an apparent increase in cerebellar

connections with cerebral cortical association areas involved in cognition; and a

probable augmentation of intracortical connectivity in prefrontal cortex. ...

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If I implied that we weren't using all our Brains, it was unintentional. :blink:

 

The best thought that I heard was, "Its not that we only use 1/3 of our Brain, its just that we only have any idea what 1/3 of the brain does at this state of the art. Be assured that the rest of the brain isn't there for filling.

 

It is doing something.

 

Lilly argued that since Dolphins have larger brains than man, they must be more intelligent than man--and only Hubris keeps us from admitting this.

 

Then modern Brain researchers found that it takes a good deal more brain power to navigate with echolocation, than it does to navigate visually.

 

So poor old Dr Lilly's Nice Beautiful Theorem gets Gang-Raped by an Ugly Bunch of Facts.....

 

A prime example of how the processing power is distributed.

 

An extra lump of neurons the size of a Navy bean, right in the Area of the Brain that does Mathematics, might pay huge dividends.

 

Saxon Violence

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If I implied that we weren't using all our Brains, it was unintentional. :blink:

 

The best thought that I heard was, "Its not that we only use 1/3 of our Brain, its just that we only have any idea what 1/3 of the brain does at this state of the art. Be assured that the rest of the brain isn't there for filling.

 

It is doing something.

 

Lilly argued that since Dolphins have larger brains than man, they must be more intelligent than man--and only Hubris keeps us from admitting this.

...

 

Saxon Violence

 

i'd say it's hubris asserting dolphins are more intelligent on any account, much less the brain/body mass ratio. all their communicative & collaborative abilities notwithstanding, dolphins exhibit no tool-making, no writing, no mathematics, or other such things as we humans measure our intelligence by.

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i'd say it's hubris asserting dolphins are more intelligent on any account, much less the brain/body mass ratio. all their communicative & collaborative abilities notwithstanding, dolphins exhibit no tool-making, no writing, no mathematics, or other such things as we humans measure our intelligence by.

 

 

Think again turtle my friend...

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/06/0607_050607_dolphin_tools.html

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nevertheless, they aren't building machines. i would simply classify the sponge-tool you reference under my "collaborative effort" heading along with their making bubble curtains -a tool- to corral fish. they aren't as intelligent as we humans or they would be telling us so in no uncertain terms. find me a pod of dolphin in uniform attacking a tuna trawler by throwing sticks & stones and then we can talk. :slingshot:

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i think we as humans have the benefit of having a decently large brain while using a communal conciousness, thus enabling us written language,

 

this gives us the advantage, that and fire,

 

while ocean dwelling life may have larger brain, their exposure to fire is limited, while ours its common, from the communal conciousness

 

 

where a species that has a smaller brain on another planet may be the top of the chain because of a communal conciousness because their written language worked, and throught many years of learning, they achieved something greater

 

just my view

 

i also think if we could communicate whith whales and teach them our knowledge, they may come up with dynamic solutions to our issues

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The brain of the sperm whale weighs 7800g

http://en.wikipedia..../Colossal_squid

 

elephant4,783

 

giant squid what is it's brain weight

 

dolfin approx brain weight=1400g

 

http://faculty.washi...dler/facts.html

 

it is not simply the brain weight that is the point regarding intelligence; it is the ratio of the brain weight to the total weight of the creature.

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sperm whale 1 to .13684

human 1 to .01700

bee 1 to .011

 

so you say we are slightly smarter than the bee

 

i still say that its based on learning and the ability to record and with that ability, teach

 

:doh: no; i don't say that. your ability to make unwarranted conclusions is exceeded only by your ability to post "facts" without references while ignoring such posts already made. better to remain silent & have people think you foolish & unstructured than to open your browser and remove all doubt.

 

brain-to-body ratio @ wiki

(boldenation mine.)

Brain-to-body mass ratio, also known as the brain to body weight ratio, is the ratio of brain weight to body weight, which is hypothesised to be a rough estimate of the intelligence of an animal. A more complex measurement, encephalization quotient, takes into account allometric effects of widely divergent body sizes across several taxa. ...

 

 

cat 1:100

small birds 1:12

dog 1:125

frog 1:172

shark 1:2496

hippopotamus 1:2789

human 1:40

mouse 1:40

lion 1:550

elephant 1:560

horse 1:600

...

Brain-body size relationship

 

Brain size usually increases with body size in animals (is positively correlated), i.e. large animals usually have larger brains than smaller animals.[1] The relationship is not linear however. Small mammals like mice have a direct brain/body size similar to humans, while elephants have comparatively small brain/body size, despite elephants being obviously intelligent animals.[1][3]

 

Intelligence in animals is hard to establish, but the larger the brain the more brain weight might be available for more complex cognitive tasks. However, large animals need more brain to control their body, so that relative rather than absolute brain size makes for a ranking of animals that coincide better with observed complexity of behaviour. The relationship between brain-to-body mass ratio and complexity of behaviour is not perfect as other factors also influence intelligence, like the evolution of the recent cerebral cortex and different degrees of brain folding,[4] which increase the surface of the cortex, which is positively correlated in humans to intelligence. The noted exception to this, of course, are those suffering from swelling of the brain which, while resulting in greater surface area, does not alter intelligence. [5]

 

Comparisons between groups

 

Dolphins have the highest brain-to-body weight ratio of all cetaceans.[6] Either octopuses[7] or jumping spiders[8] have the highest for an invertebrate. Humans have a higher brain-to-body weight ratio than any of these animals.[9][10] ...

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i apologize, i simply meant that all life has thought, depending on learning habits of a species, thoughts advance differently

 

birds make adobe nests, bees make honey hives with wax, ants make vents for air flow in their hive

 

humans havest the possibilities of fire

thats all i was saying

 

the apology is all well-and-good, but of little consequence if you continue on with your ways. as you know we have been over this before. your good-faith effort is required here; not just ours.

 

on what i boldened of your statement, this is what i mean by saying you ignore bona fide information given in previous posts. scientific research has shown it is brain strucure -including, but not exclusive to, brain/body ratio- that determines intelligence, not "learning habits" whatever that means.

 

above and beyond intelligence, the thread title invokes "conciousness". let's define that.

1. The state or condition of being conscious.

2. A sense of one's personal or collective identity, including the attitudes, beliefs, and sensitivities held by or considered characteristic of an individual or group

...

source

 

so by definition 1. we could reasonably argue that a bee has some level of conciousness insofar as it appears aware of its environment by virtue of its observed reactions to environment. but by definition 2. there is no evidence/observation -or proposed observation iaao (i am aware of)- by which a bee or any animal other than humans has such a concious sense. ergo not only are humans more intelligent than the other animals, they have a higher conciousness. more hunekers per double-helix the strange loop asserted.

 

find me a pod of dolphins conference calling to protest trawl fishing not only on their own behalf but on the behalf of the tuna as well. then we'll talk. :phone:

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