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The Urantia Revelation


Majeston
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Mageston,

 

 

 

Mageston, If you are worried about offending me please don't, I'd prefer if you spoke plainly. If you consider me a potential UB convert then you are definitely on the wrong track because I'm not on a spiritual quest.

 

Ok, we'll talk plain. There is no such thing as a UB convert, there is either truth, partial truth or no truth. You are free to follow whatever path you like

 

As I said earlier, if there's something to the UB it will be able to stand on its own without you and Furchizedek needing to defend its supposed authenticity at every turn. However, so far the UB is not standing up to criticism in a number of areas.

 

Well, nobody needs to defend the UB, it certainly does stand on it's own, in my case I am simply trying to assist by pointing out different passages and help with either research I have done or that others I know of have done.

 

The link that I posted is only a very tiny portion of my overall studies, using the interpreting method I introduced. I simply didn't want to overwhelm people with a magnitude of information that the human brain was never meant to process all at once.

 

 

As long as we're talking plainly, trust me, what you posted about wisdom did not overwhelm anyone, but, if you take my advice above you can improve your study greatly and perhaps even overwhelm yourself in the process.

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Mageston, I'm just taking your last post in parts so there's no confusion.

 

 

 

Not sure where the Fellowship Site is in order to use the topic function!

 

I just used 'search the Urantia site'.

 

DDuck I already posted all the information about the "Topical Index" search at the Fellowship website in this post http://scienceforums.com/topic/23183-the-urantia-revelation/page__view__findpost__p__305957

It is a wonderful tool to use if you wish to do a study for example on "Wisdom". I already also explained in the same post that the search engine at the Truthbook site gives better results than the Fellowship site does if for example you are looking for specific "words". I cannot think of any good reason why you might want to use the "search the Urantia site" function as that will return results from the book as well as any document on the site.

 

 

 

For sure there is mention of wisdom but the UB never seems to explain 'what that is' except to say it's enlightenment. If I can never know exactly what it is, then how can I know when I've learned it?

 

ok let's see my friend....... for example if I use the "topical index" function and look under "W' and scroll to "Wisdom" and click on "Wisdom" then I am taken to a page with many different "hits" on wisdom in the UB.

 

So, a quick look reveals the following section but if that doesn't ring your bell there are many others passages explaining "wisdom"

 

Time And Eternity

 

The Urantia Book; Paper 118, Section 1

 

P1295:1, 118:1.1 It is helpful to man's cosmic orientation to attain all possible comprehension of Deity's relation to the cosmos. While absolute Deity is eternal in nature, the Gods are related to time as an experience in eternity. In the evolutionary universes eternity is temporal everlastingness -- the everlasting now.

 

 

P1295:2, 118:1.2 The personality of the mortal creature may eternalize by self-identification with the indwelling spirit through the technique of choosing to do the will of the Father. Such a consecration of will is tantamount to the realization of eternity-reality of purpose. This means that the purpose of the creature has become fixed with regard to the succession of moments; stated otherwise, that the succession of moments will witness no change in creature purpose. A million or a billion moments makes no difference. Number has ceased to have meaning with regard to the creature's purpose. Thus does creature choice plus God's choice eventuate in the eternal realities of the never-ending union of the spirit of God and the nature of man in the everlasting service of the children of God and of their Paradise Father.

 

P1295:3, 118:1.3 There is a direct relationship between maturity and the unit of time consciousness in any given intellect. The time unit may be a day, a year, or a longer period, but inevitably it is the criterion by which the conscious self evaluates the circumstances of life, and by which the conceiving intellect measures and evaluates the facts of temporal existence.

 

P1295:4, 118:1.4 Experience, wisdom, and judgment are the concomitants of the lengthening of the time unit in mortal experience. As the human mind reckons backward into the past, it is evaluating past experience for the purpose of bringing it to bear on a present situation. As mind reaches out into the future, it is attempting to evaluate the future significance of possible action. And having thus reckoned with both experience and wisdom, the human will exercises judgment-decision in the present, and the plan of action thus born of the past and the future becomes existent.

 

P1295:5, 118:1.5 In the maturity of the developing self, the past and future are brought together to illuminate the true meaning of the present. As the self matures, it reaches further and further back into the past for experience, while its wisdom forecasts seek to penetrate deeper and deeper into the unknown future. And as the conceiving self extends this reach ever further into both past and future, so does judgment become less and less dependent on the momentary present. In this way does decision-action begin to escape from the fetters of the moving present, while it begins to take on the aspects of past-future significance.

 

 

P1295:6, 118:1.6 Patience is exercised by those mortals whose time units are short; true maturity transcends patience by a forbearance born of real understanding.

 

 

P1295:7, 118:1.7 To become mature is to live more intensely in the present, at the same time escaping from the limitations of the present. The plans of maturity, founded on past experience, are coming into being in the present in such manner as to enhance the values of the future.

 

P1295:8, 118:1.8 The time unit of immaturity concentrates meaning-value into the present moment in such a way as to divorce the present of its true relationship to the not-present -- the past-future. The time unit of maturity is proportioned so to reveal the co-ordinate relationship of past-present-future that the self begins to gain insight into the wholeness of events, begins to view the landscape of time from the panoramic perspective of broadened horizons, begins perhaps to suspect the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum, the fragments of which are called time.

 

P1296:1, 118:1.9 On the levels of the infinite and the absolute the moment of the present contains all of the past as well as all of the future. I AM signifies also I WAS and I WILL BE. And this represents our best concept of eternity and the eternal.

 

P1296:2, 118:1.10 On the absolute and eternal level, potential reality is just as meaningful as actual reality. Only on the finite level and to time-bound creatures does there appear to be such a vast difference. To God, as absolute, an ascending mortal who has made the eternal decision is already a Paradise finaliter. But the Universal Father, through the indwelling Thought Adjuster, is not thus limited in awareness but can also know of, and participate in, every temporal struggle with the problems of the creature ascent from animallike to Godlike levels of existence.

 

Solomon said that wisdom was the principle thing to gain so any teachings regarding it cannot be vague.

 

(1101.4) 100:6.9 The characteristic difference between evolved and revealed religion is a new quality of divine wisdom which is added to purely experiential human wisdom. But it is experience in and with the human religions that develops the capacity for subsequent reception of increased bestowals of divine wisdom and cosmic insight.

 

If religion is the medium through which all bestowals of wisdom come then is one religion closer to the truth than others?

 

DD "wisdom" does NOT come from religion and yes, one so-called religion is closer to the truth than others

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DDuck,

 

here's another "nice" hit on "wisdom that you might like in your study of "wisdom"

 

 

The Spirit Of Truth

 

The Urantia Book; Paper 180, Section 5

 

The new helper which Jesus promised to send into the hearts of believers, to pour out upon all flesh, is the Spirit of Truth. This divine endowment is not the letter or law of truth, neither is it to function as the form or expression of truth. The new teacher is the conviction of truth, the consciousness and assurance of true meanings on real spirit levels. And this new teacher is the spirit of living and growing truth, expanding, unfolding, and adaptative truth.

 

Divine truth is a spirit-discerned and living reality. Truth exists only on high spiritual levels of the realization of divinity and the consciousness of communion with God. You can know the truth, and you can live the truth; you can experience the growth of truth in the soul and enjoy the liberty of its enlightenment in the mind, but you cannot imprison truth in formulas, codes, creeds, or intellectual patterns of human conduct. When you undertake the human formulation of divine truth, it speedily dies. The post-mortem salvage of imprisoned truth, even at best, can eventuate only in the realization of a peculiar form of intellectualized glorified wisdom. Static truth is dead truth, and only dead truth can be held as a theory. Living truth is dynamic and can enjoy only an experiential existence in the human mind.

 

Intelligence grows out of a material existence which is illuminated by the presence of the cosmic mind. Wisdom comprises the consciousness of knowledge elevated to new levels of meaning and activated by the presence of the universe endowment of the adjutant of wisdom. Truth is a spiritual reality value experienced only by spirit-endowed beings who function upon supermaterial levels of universe consciousness, and who, after the realization of truth, permit its spirit of activation to live and reign within their souls.

 

The true child of universe insight looks for the living Spirit of Truth in every wise saying. The God-knowing individual is constantly elevating wisdom to the living-truth levels of divine attainment; the spiritually unprogressive soul is all the while dragging the living truth down to the dead levels of wisdom and to the domain of mere exalted knowledge.

 

The golden rule, when divested of the superhuman insight of the Spirit of Truth, becomes nothing more than a rule of high ethical conduct. The golden rule, when literally interpreted, may become the instrument of great offense to one's fellows. Without a spiritual discernment of the golden rule of wisdom you might reason that, since you are desirous that all men speak the full and frank truth of their minds to you, you should therefore fully and frankly speak the full thought of your mind to your fellow beings. Such an unspiritual interpretation of the golden rule might result in untold unhappiness and no end of sorrow.

>>>>>>>>>>>........

 

the rest of the passage can be found here..

 

http://urantiabook.org/newbook/ub/ppr180_5.html#P180_5_3

 

 

 

 

 

or.....perhaps you might enjoy this section about "Wisdom"

 

 

P1302:2, 118:8.5

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.......

The whole principle of biologic evolution makes it impossible for primitive man to appear on the inhabited worlds with any large endowment of self-restraint. Therefore does the same creative design which purposed evolution likewise provide those external restraints of time and space, hunger and fear, which effectively circumscribe the subspiritual choice range of such uncultured creatures. As man's mind successfully overstrides increasingly difficult barriers, this same creative design has also provided for the slow accumulation of the racial heritage of painfully garnered experiential wisdom -- in other words, for the maintenance of a balance between the diminishing external restraints and the augmenting internal restraints.

 

The slowness of evolution, of human cultural progress, testifies to the effectiveness of that brake -- material inertia -- which so efficiently operates to retard dangerous velocities of progress. Thus does time itself cushion and distribute the otherwise lethal results of premature escape from the next-encompassing barriers to human action. For when culture advances overfast, when material achievement outruns the evolution of worship-wisdom, then does civilization contain within itself the seeds of retrogression; and unless buttressed by the swift augmentation of experiential wisdom, such human societies will recede from high but premature levels of attainment, and the "dark ages" of the interregnum of wisdom will bear witness to the inexorable restoration of the imbalance between self-liberty and self-control.

 

The iniquity of Caligastia was the by-passing of the time governor of progressive human liberation -- the gratuitous destruction of restraining barriers, barriers which the mortal minds of those times had not experientially overridden.

 

That mind which can effect a partial abridgment of time and space, by this very act proves itself possessed of the seeds of wisdom which can effectively serve in lieu of the transcended barrier of restraint.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.............

 

http://urantiabook.org/newbook/ub/ppr118_8.html#P118_8_5

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DD if it is your intention to make some spiritual progress in your life you are probably going to have to let go of some of your acquired fallacies regarding the "bible"

 

The UB quotes the Bible, does that mean the UB is wrong too?

 

As far as the "divine interpreting methodology that God put in place there is only one that I know of and that is the little fragment that God himself placed within your mind. That is the only "divine interpreting methodology" that you have or will ever have for all eternity.

 

Do all religions have this little fragment?

 

I see you are haviing trouble making progress, so I'll post this little diddy for you personally. Perhaps it has something in it for you.

 

Now we come down to the nitty gritty of it. What you mean to say is that I'm having trouble making progress according to your expectations?

 

 

155:6 THE SECOND DISCOURSE ON RELIGION

 

And so, while they paused in the shade of the hillside, Jesus continued to teach them regarding the religion of the spirit, in substance saying:

 

You have come out from among those of your fellows who choose to remain satisfied with a religion of mind, who crave security and prefer conformity. You have elected to exchange your feelings of authoritative certainty for the assurances of the spirit of adventurous and progressive faith. You have dared to protest against the grueling bondage of institutional religion and to reject the authority of the traditions of record which are now regarded as the word of God. Our Father did indeed speak through Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, Amos, and Hosea, but he did not cease to minister words of truth to the world when these prophets of old made an end of their utterances. My Father is no respecter of races or generations in that the word of truth is vouchsafed one age and withheld from another. Commit not the folly of calling that divine which is wholly human, and fail not to discern the words of truth which come not through the traditional oracles of supposed inspiration.

 

 

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1:8, repeated verbatim in 9)

 

You shouldn't quote Jesus, because he would never speak against the scriptures; as they were authored by God.

 

 

 

Your religion shall change from the mere intellectual belief in traditional authority to the actual experience of that living faith which is able to grasp the reality of God and all that relates to the divine spirit of the Father. The religion of the mind ties you hopelessly to the past; the religion of the spirit consists in progressive revelation and ever beckons you on toward higher and holier achievements in spiritual ideals and eternal realities.

 

I guess that's why I like, and gravitate, to science so much; it is a religion of the intellect and doesn't bow down to traditional authorities.

 

 

Majeston, it might be a good practice to keep your posts a little shorter and one point at a time. If there's a lot of words, people just naturally revert to skimming.

 

As for the UB discourse you put in this post, it's typical practice for indoctrinated persons to use passages that rebuke. It's kind of like sending in the big guy with the muscles to frighten an opponent into submission. Shame on you.

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The UB quotes the Bible, does that mean the UB is wrong too?

 

I believe the line from Cool Hand Luke best describes the situation here......"What we have here is a failure to communicate"

 

Do all religions have this little fragment?

 

It is not about religions.....it is about people!

 

Now we come down to the nitty gritty of it. What you mean to say is that I'm having trouble making progress according to your expectations?

 

 

back to failure to communicate

 

 

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1:8, repeated verbatim in 9)

 

You shouldn't quote Jesus, because he would never speak against the scriptures; as they were authored by God.

 

_ and you actually want to talk about indoctrination?????? 2funny my friend.........let's speak plainly my friend, I included those responses just for you in particular in response to what you wrote,.....everything in total I believe is no more than 1 page in the revelation.....if you are overwhelmed right now or if reading one page is too much for you to handle, then just say so, no need to be nasty about it. If you prefer, in the future, I will try to keep my responses or quotes to 50 words or less. Does that suit you better? I maybe believed mistakenly that you were doing a personal study and research on "wisdom".....I tried to stay on the topic you chose.

 

 

 

 

 

I guess that's why I like, and gravitate, to science so much; it is a religion of the intellect and doesn't bow down to traditional authorities.

 

 

Majeston, it might be a good practice to keep your posts a little shorter and one point at a time. If there's a lot of words, people just naturally revert to skimming.

 

As for the UB discourse you put in this post, it's typical practice for indoctrinated persons to use passages that rebuke. It's kind of like sending in the big guy with the muscles to frighten an opponent into submission. Shame on you.

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I believe the line from Cool Hand Luke best describes the situation here......"What we have here is a failure to communicate"

 

LOL Love that movie!

 

It is not about religions.....it is about people!

 

But the UB says that spiritual revelations can only come in the context of religion. I quoted the part in my last post, remember!

 

 

_ and you actually want to talk about indoctrination?????? 2funny my friend.........let's speak plainly my friend, I included those responses just for you in particular in response to what you wrote,.....everything in total I believe is no more than 1 page in the revelation.....if you are overwhelmed right now or if reading one page is too much for you to handle, then just say so, no need to be nasty about it. If you prefer, in the future, I will try to keep my responses or quotes to 50 words or less. Does that suit you better? I maybe believed mistakenly that you were doing a personal study and research on "wisdom".....I tried to stay on the topic you chose.

 

This is what I meant by the nitty gritty. Now I believe I'm dealing with the real Majeston!

 

I wasn't being nasty I just want to make sure that I answer all of your questions and that's difficult to do if there are so many points in one post.

 

I am interested in the wisdom topic and I searched it on the Urantia site (and I thank you for your further post on wisdom) but everything I see still 'does not clarify what wisdom is according to the UB'. If I have to explain something to another person, I need to be able to put it concisely, meaning simply (using as few words as possible).

 

 

You know the expression, 'dazzle them with words'? 50 words or less would be great :)

 

Now for another question I have. The UB quotes the Bible quite a bit so wouldn't that in effect put the Bible and UB on the same footing?

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Majeston,

 

Here's that UB quote I previously asked you about and you subsequently replied, "its not about religions...it's about people"

 

 

(1101.4) 100:6.9 The characteristic difference between evolved and revealed religion is a new quality of divine wisdom which is added to purely experiential human wisdom. But it is experience in and with the human religions that develops the capacity for subsequent reception of increased bestowals of divine wisdom and cosmic insight.

 

If religion is the medium through which all bestowals of wisdom come then is one religion closer to the truth than others?

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Majeston,

 

Here's that UB quote I previously asked you about and you subsequently replied, "its not about religions...it's about people"

 

 

(1101.4) 100:6.9 The characteristic difference between evolved and revealed religion is a new quality of divine wisdom which is added to purely experiential human wisdom. But it is experience in and with the human religions that develops the capacity for subsequent reception of increased bestowals of divine wisdom and cosmic insight.

 

If religion is the medium through which all bestowals of wisdom come then is one religion closer to the truth than others?

 

 

DDuck,

 

First of all, I did answer your question, I said yes, one religion is closer to "truth" than another. Not to "the truth" , but to truth. There is a difference and I don't believe that you can really use the term "the truth" since all truth on this level of existence is partial and relative. I don't mean to be vague or obfuscating, it's just that it's a very open ended subject and you probably have seen it stated somewhere that there is no absolute truth short of God. We just do the best we can, I guess. Truth has different meanings, but in the purest sense it only deals with the "spiritual" values, not the mere difference between right and wrong as for example does 2+2=4. The best example I know of is possible the Pentecost example. Jesus "poured out" his spirit, the "spirit of truth" upon all mankind at Pentecost. Now, what does that mean? Well, if you remember a few posts back, I quoted what it meant. Reread yesterdays post at 8:32 p.m. It is the "conviction" of truth. You know that you know. This is exactly why the apostles were able to go to their deaths even willingly and happily. They did not fear death because they knew what lay beyond, with no doubt and with certainty, with "conviction". No matter what the Romans or Hebrews did to them they would never again deny Jesus, because they knew and they knew that that knew.

 

Now, your question is a bit tricky DDuck, because you preface it with a fallacy because you did not read or understand what the quote actually said because you started with an erroneous conclusion which the passage does not state. You started with "If religion is the medium through which all bestowals come....."it does not say that all bestowals of wisdom come through religion. It says that human religion "develops the capacity". Wisdom is the 7th adjutant mind spirit. It follows "worship" which is the 6th. Animals have the first five as we do, the difference is worship and then wisdom. True wisdom comes only from God, and I believe that it finds lodgement upon the foundation built through worship. It is a sort of feedback loop between you and God. You must wonder why sometimes that when you hear the most beautiful melodies or see the most beautiful paintings or hear the loveliest voices they are all without a doubt spiritual in nature. When man reaches for perfection, he approaches God.

When I said it's not about religion, it's about people, what I meant was that religion helps lead you to God, and through this direct interpersonal communication with your creator you learn wisdom. Real wisdom, not simply threatening to cut a baby in half and having the true mother scream NO!!! give the baby to that woman instead. Now, I suppose it is time to relate all my glorious adventures with the divine and to dazzle you with all my own personal enlightenment. Well, for one the Ub is just a book. Probably the most important book on the planet, but still just a book. The sun, the planets, the oceans, they will all sometime be as dust, the only thing that can live for eternity is us. You, me and the others. The universes are "teeming with life", That is what is of real importance. You will also sometime read,

P1094:6, 100:1.4 .......The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole.

 

The soil essential for religious growth presupposes a progressive life of self-realization, the co-ordination of natural propensities, the exercise of curiosity and the enjoyment of reasonable adventure, the experiencing of feelings of satisfaction, the functioning of the fear stimulus of attention and awareness, the wonder-lure, and a normal consciousness of smallness, humility. Growth is also predicated on the discovery of selfhood accompanied by self-criticism -- conscience, for conscience is really the criticism of oneself by one's own value-habits, personal ideals.

 

Religious experience is markedly influenced by physical health, inherited temperament, and social environment. But these temporal conditions do not inhibit inner spiritual progress by a soul dedicated to the doing of the will of the Father in heaven. There are present in all normal mortals certain innate drives toward growth and self-realization which function if they are not specifically inhibited. The certain technique of fostering this constitutive endowment of the potential of spiritual growth is to maintain an attitude of wholehearted devotion to supreme values.

 

Religion cannot be bestowed, received, loaned, learned, or lost. It is a personal experience which grows proportionally to the growing quest for final values. Cosmic growth thus attends on the accumulation of meanings and the ever-expanding elevation of values. But nobility itself is always an unconscious growth.

 

So, in somewhat of a summary, it is a question of balance. At the same time you are striving for eternity, you still have to put your pants on one leg at a time. One personal experience you might find interesting, if you enjoyed Cool Hand Luke, is that I spent quite a few years inand around Westport, CT. and ran into Paul quite a few times. The first time was when I was in Weston at the little country store and one pump gas station and was bending down filling a can of gas for my lawn mower and out of the corner of my eye I saw a car drive up and a guy got out and reached down to take the hose from my hand as I was finishing and so I handed it to him and at the same time looked up into his deep azure blue eyes and recognized Paul. It was quite a shocking experience. These were the days when he drove 240Z's for Bob Sharpe Datsun in Wilton/Norwalk.

 

 

Another interesting point related the the previous topic about frogs, suns, planets, and "people" is how paper 15 begins.......

 

PAPER 15: THE SEVEN SUPERUNIVERSES

 

15:0.1 As far as the Universal Father is concerned—as a Father—the universes are virtually nonexistent; he deals with personalities; he is the Father of personalities.

 

 

 

Anyways DDuck, I see you are moving away from "wisdom" and into "religion. So, remembering the example of the tadpole and the frog, you should really do the basic groundwork and read the revelation in order instead of jumping all around. It's really written in the way it is for a "divine" reason. They actually do know what they are doing. For example regarding religion, they take you from the very beginnings to the highest levels from about paper 85 through 119 and then the Life of Jesus begins it's story. In particular you should read paper 131 The Worlds Religions, and then paper 155 the first and second discourse on Religion.

 

You should take notes along the way with your questions because they will usually all get answered or I can help you if you get stuck on something. The UB doesn't actually quote the bible it quotes a truth in order to reveal a higher overall truth. Usually some part of what you think is an exact quote is changed or corrected. That is the method used throughout including Swann or Hartshorne or anyone else.

 

Regarding W.F.G.Swann's Architecture Of The Universe 1934 Fred Beckner noted the following.......

 

"The Architecture of the Universe was identified by Matthew Block as a possible source for some of the scientific material in the Urantia Book (UB). This is based on correspondences between Swann's book and material in papers 15, 41, and 42 of the UB.

 

Although Swann's book may have been a human source for some of the scientific material in the Urantia Book, there is no evidence of verbatim copying of material from Swann, and in two instances, errors in Swann's material were corrected or avoided by the authors of the UB papers.

 

>>>>>>>>

 

Mass of electron vs tenth of ounce. The UB contains a statement concerning a proportionality between the mass of the electron and one-tenth ounce, and the size of the electron and the size of the earth: If the mass of matter should be magnified until that of an electron equaled one tenth of an ounce, then were size to be proportionately magnified, the volume of such an electron would become as large as that of the earth.

 

(UB477:2)

 

The mass of the electron is 9.10938 x 10-28 gram. An ounce is 28.35 grams. The magnification required to increase the electron mass to one-tenth ounce is then given by 2.835/9.10938 x 10-28 = 3.112 x 1027

 

The Institute of Physics web site at (http://www.iop.org/Physics/Electron/Exhibition/section1/properties.html) states that the size of the electron has never been measured. It is only known that its radius is less than 10-18 m. The radius of the earth, however, is quite well known to be 6.378 x 106 m. In order for the size of the electron to be proportionately magnified to equal the size of the earth, the electron radius must be 6.378 x 106/3.112 x 1027 = 2.049 x 10-21 m which is 2.049 zeptometers. Thus the Urantia Book implies that the electron radius is about five hundred times smaller than the currently known upper limit of its radius. The corresponding diameter of the electron is thus 4.098 x 10-19 cm.

 

The corresponding passage in AU is:

 

The mass of the electron is so small that if you should magnify all masses so that the electron attains a mass of one tenth of an ounce, that one tenth of an ounce would, on the same scale of magnification, become as heavy as the earth. (AU44:2)

 

The mass of the earth is 5.9736 x 1027 gm. If one magnifies one-tenth ounce (2.835 gm) by the factor of 3.112 x 1027 one has a mass of 8.83 x 1027 gm. This estimate is about 47% greater than the actual mass of the earth. In order to make this statement absolutely accurate, the reference mass must be 0.082 oz rather than 0.1 oz. One-tenth ounce is probably close enough for the purpose of this illustration.

 

What is most interesting about this correspondence is that the UB author, a Mighty Messenger, changed the second ratio from one concerning mass, which is easily verifiable, to one concerning the size of the electron. In doing this, the Mighty Messenger provides a way for Urantians to calculate the size of the electron, scientific information which is unknown to this day. This is an apparent violation of the mandate not to provide scientific information unknown on Urantia.

 

Martin Gardner, in his book Urantia: The Great Cult Mystery, says the following about this correspondence:

 

12/30/01

3

“Note that the Mighty Messenger made a mighty mistake in copying from Swann. He says the magnified electron would have a volume equal to that of the earth when he should have said mass.” (U:TGCM348:3)

 

Gardner makes the mistake of assuming that the Mighty Messenger intended to copy Swann exactly. If he had read the UB passage carefully he would have found that the Mighty Messenger knew exactly what he was saying. He did not make the mistake of confusing mass and volume. We know this because he explicitly refers to size as the quantity he is proportionately magnifying. He is saying that the magnification factor derived from mass, if applied to size, would make the electron have the same size as the earth. As we have shown above, the value of electron size this implies is not inconsistent with current scientific estimates of the upper limit on the size of the electron. Gardner then goes on the acknowledge that the Mighty Messenger did not copy Swann’s mistake concerning the relative size of the proton. This appears to be a case of Gardner’s belief that he can read the mind of the Mighty Messenger, for he has no factual basis on which to base his statement that a “mighty mistake” was made. In my opinion this is another example of Gardner’s intellectual dishonesty."

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Majeston,

 

You said:

As long as we're talking plainly, trust me, what you posted about wisdom did not overwhelm anyone

 

What I meant by overwhelming people was by posting a ridiculous amount of information, which people end up skimming over and missing half or more of it anyway.

 

Speaking of which, what happened to 50 words or less??

but, if you take my advice above you can improve your study greatly and perhaps even overwhelm yourself in the process.

 

Actually the UB overwhelms by its sheer size. I found a great deal of it really interesting and very creative and I can honestly say that I gave it a good look.

 

I said yes, one religion is closer to "truth" than another.

 

Sorry I missed it, could you tell me the name of that religion please?

 

Now, your question is a bit tricky DDuck, because you preface it with a fallacy because you did not read or understand what the quote actually said because you started with an erroneous conclusion which the passage does not state. You started with "If religion is the medium through which all bestowals come....."it does not say that all bestowals of wisdom come through religion. It says that human religion "develops the capacity".

 

 

'Religion is the medium' or 'religion develops the capacity' - it's the same thought! The UB most definitely states that religion is stepping stone to wisdom. And that's why I'm so eager to find out the name of the religion that is 'closer to "truth" than another'.

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Majeston,

 

You said:

 

 

What I meant by overwhelming people was by posting a ridiculous amount of information, which people end up skimming over and missing half or more of it anyway.

 

Speaking of which, what happened to 50 words or less??

 

first of all, i wish to apologize for giving you a negative rep on your last post...what happened was that I was sitting here on my new IPad and I moved my finger across the bottom of your post and it added a negative 1 to your post. I'll have to be more careful. Additionally the IPad seems to not show all the data in the reply section of the post so now I am back on a laptop.

anyways, you seem to be generalizing here and I guess the MacDonalds generation wants everything in soundbites, some people though, believe it or not might actually read a whole post.

 

 

Actually the UB overwhelms by its sheer size. I found a great deal of it really interesting and very creative and I can honestly say that I gave it a good look.

 

I don't know what that's supposed to mean, I guess you've moved on to bigger and better things. You know, when I was in high school, Moby Dick or War and Peace or Frankly Scarlet I don't give a damn, was overwhelming by their sheer size so many people bought Cliff Notes or a synopsis or maybe the comic book version. Regarding the UB, I really don't know anyone of any real intelligence who has only read the thing once.

 

 

 

Sorry I missed it, could you tell me the name of that religion please?

 

 

 

 

'Religion is the medium' or 'religion develops the capacity' - it's the same thought! The UB most definitely states that religion is stepping stone to wisdom. And that's why I'm so eager to find out the name of the religion that is 'closer to "truth" than another'.

 

Sorry friend, it is not the thought. You will have to point out this quote in the UB for me. You should understand the meaning and implications of what "scaffolding" is in the UB and you should also learn the difference between religion and true religion. I gave you enough links in my last post regarding that for you to understand it. You seem to be trying to put stuff into a box or attach labels or one sentence definitions to something that is much more complex. There is evolutionary religion and there is also revealed religion. There is dogma, and ritual and the trappings around particular belief systems, but that is not true religion. I gave you some links to understand this better but you seem to want to boil religion down to a name like Christianity or Buddhism or Hinduism etc. I think Wikipedia lists something like 37000 different sects of Christianity. So, DDuck my friend what are you really trying to DDeuce? LOL you are trying to avoid doing the hard work of actually knowing what you are talking about

 

On another note, I think I just read yesterday that science is once again mystified, puzzled and confounded because they just found what they think is a new particle in the Tevatron that they never expected and now they might have to completely reformulate everything they previously believed or "knew and proved" 2funny, it happens almost weekly. Just for your information, there is no Higgs/Boson particle to be found. The whole LHC is an almost criminal waste of trillions of dollars of hard taxpayer earned money. It's somewhat ironic that this new particle was found just when funding was about to be cut isn't it? Perhaps instead of spending trillions of dollars they could have purchased a copy of the Urantia revelation for about 12 bucks or read it free online.

:blink:

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You will have to point out this quote in the UB for me.

 

:huh: It was you who quoted those references from the UB to me!! Get it together Majeston.

 

You should understand the meaning and implications of what "scaffolding" is in the UB and you should also learn the difference between religion and true religion.

 

Much too ambiguous - a distinct trait of extremist religious thinking.

 

You seem to be trying to put stuff into a box or attach labels[/i] or one sentence definitions to something that is much more complex.

 

I'm trying to get to the bottom line, which you seem incapable of delivering.

 

I ask you again, what religion were you speaking about that is 'closer to the truth' than others? You said there was one!

 

So, DDuck my friend what are you really trying to DDeuce? LOL you are trying to avoid doing the hard work of actually knowing what you are talking about

 

Answer the questions with a direct and honest answer. :angry:

 

On another note, I think I just read yesterday that science is once again mystified, puzzled and confounded because they just found what they think is a new particle in the Tevatron that they never expected and now they might have to completely reformulate everything they previously believed or "knew and proved" 2funny,

 

Happens all the time, it's the nature of science. It's called 'back to the drawing board' and in the end we'll either be sure about what we presently know or know more than we now do.

 

You know what they say about people who gloat...

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:huh: It was you who quoted those references from the UB to me!! Get it together Majeston.

 

Sorry my friend, you changed the quote into your interpretation of what you think it meant or said and you were incorrect

 

 

 

 

Much too ambiguous - a distinct trait of extremist religious thinking.

 

Really??????? Ambiguous????? Extremist????? Sometimes I think you just talk or throw words about without really thinking or knowing what you are talking about. Let's look at one example......

 

"

P990:4, 90:3.9 5.

Natural causation. Mankind has been very slow to learn the material secrets of the interrelationship of cause and effect in the physical domains of energy, matter, and life. The ancient Greeks, having preserved the traditions of Adamson's teachings, were among the first to recognize that all disease is the result of natural causes. Slowly and certainly the unfolding of a scientific era is destroying man's age-old theories of sickness and death. Fever was one of the first human ailments to be removed from the category of supernatural disorders, and progressively the era of science has broken the fetters of ignorance which so long imprisoned the human mind. An understanding of old age and contagion is gradually obliterating man's fear of ghosts, spirits, and gods as the personal perpetrators of human misery and mortal suffering.

 

 

Evolution unerringly achieves its end: It imbues man with that superstitious fear of the unknown and dread of the unseen which is the scaffolding for the God concept. And having witnessed the birth of an advanced comprehension of Deity, through the co-ordinate action of revelation, this same technique of evolution then unerringly sets in motion those forces of thought which will inexorably obliterate the scaffolding, which has served its purpose.

 

I'm trying to get to the bottom line, which you seem incapable of delivering.

 

I ask you again, what religion were you speaking about that is 'closer to the truth' than others? You said there was one!

 

 

 

Answer the questions with a direct and honest answer. :angry:

 

DDuck, you don't seem to understand what real "religion" is and therefor you want to put labels on belief systems which are transitory and evolutionary. You also don't seem to have the capacity to read and understand more that 50 words at a time. Perhaps you are simply unwilling to. Let's try it again for your "labels" sake or soundbite desire. I dunno, what's the word count here????? 300? 200....100 ??? Roll this around in your mind and let it sink in, and then maybe you can answer your own question without the angry face. Actually, the following would also do well in your other thread where you are bashing all religion.

 

Religion has always been largely a matter of rites, rituals, observances, ceremonies, and dogmas. It has usually become tainted with that persistently mischief-making error, the chosen-people delusion. The cardinal religious ideas of incantation, inspiration, revelation, propitiation, repentance, atonement, intercession, sacrifice, prayer, confession, worship, survival after death, sacrament, ritual, ransom, salvation, redemption, covenant, uncleanness, purification, prophecy, original sin -- they all go back to the early times of primordial ghost fear.

 

 

Primitive religion is nothing more nor less than the struggle for material existence extended to embrace existence beyond the grave. The observances of such a creed represented the extension of the self-maintenance struggle into the domain of an imagined ghost-spirit world. But when tempted to criticize evolutionary religion, be careful. Remember, that is what happened; it is a historical fact. And further recall that the power of any idea lies, not in its certainty or truth, but rather in the vividness of its human appeal.

 

 

Evolutionary religion makes no provision for change or revision; unlike science, it does not provide for its own progressive correction. Evolved religion commands respect because its followers believe it is The Truth; "the faith once delivered to the saints" must, in theory, be both final and infallible. The cult resists development because real progress is certain to modify or destroy the cult itself; therefore must revision always be forced upon it.

 

Only two influences can modify and uplift the dogmas of natural religion: the pressure of the slowly advancing mores and the periodic illumination of epochal revelation. And it is not strange that progress was slow; in ancient days, to be progressive or inventive meant to be killed as a sorcerer. The cult advances slowly in generation epochs and agelong cycles. But it does move forward. Evolutionary belief in ghosts laid the foundation for a philosophy of revealed religion which will eventually destroy the superstition of its origin.

 

Religion has handicapped social development in many ways, but without religion there would have been no enduring morality nor ethics, no worth-while civilization. Religion enmothered much nonreligious culture: Sculpture originated in idol making, architecture in temple building, poetry in incantations, music in worship chants, drama in the acting for spirit guidance, and dancing in the seasonal worship festivals.

 

But while calling attention to the fact that religion was essential to the development and preservation of civilization, it should be recorded that natural religion has also done much to cripple and handicap the very civilization which it otherwise fostered and maintained. Religion has hampered industrial activities and economic development; it has been wasteful of labor and has squandered capital; it has not always been helpful to the family; it has not adequately fostered peace and good will; it has sometimes neglected education and retarded science; it has unduly impoverished life for the pretended enrichment of death. Evolutionary religion, human religion, has indeed been guilty of all these and many more mistakes, errors, and blunders; nevertheless, it did maintain cultural ethics, civilized morality, and social coherence, and made it possible for later revealed religion to compensate for these many evolutionary shortcomings.

 

 

Evolutionary religion has been man's most expensive but incomparably effective institution. Human religion can be justified only in the light of evolutionary civilization. If man were not the ascendant product of animal evolution, then would such a course of religious development stand without justification.

 

 

Religion facilitated the accumulation of capital; it fostered work of certain kinds; the leisure of the priests promoted art and knowledge; the race, in the end, gained much as a result of all these early errors in ethical technique. The shamans, honest and dishonest, were terribly expensive, but they were worth all they cost. The learned professions and science itself emerged from the parasitical priesthoods. Religion fostered civilization and provided societal continuity; it has been the moral police force of all time. Religion provided that human discipline and self-control which made wisdom possible. Religion is the efficient scourge of evolution which ruthlessly drives indolent and suffering humanity from its natural state of intellectual inertia forward and upward to the higher levels of reason and wisdom.

 

And this sacred heritage of animal ascent, evolutionary religion, must ever continue to be refined and ennobled by the continuous censorship of revealed religion and by the fiery furnace of genuine science.

 

Next: The Gift of Revelation

http://urantiabook.org/newbook/ub/ppr092_3.html#P092_3_5

 

 

 

 

 

 

Happens all the time, it's the nature of science. It's called 'back to the drawing board' and in the end we'll either be sure about what we presently know or know more than we now do.

 

You know what they say about people who gloat...

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Majeston,

 

I did change the quote but not to the degree that it changed the meaning!

 

And I don't care about natural causation, I just wanted an answer to my earlier question.

 

I derive no pleasure from seeing you suspended but you are displaying the same attributes of the people you criticized on the Christian forum that you said you were a member of.

 

Doesn't that make any bells go off in your head? Maybe, just maybe, there's something about 'religion' itself (no matter what religion) that produces 'the same' behavior patterns (even though different philosophies and teachings)?

 

Certain 'common' denominators - religion, set off certain 'common' behaviors. If you are at all intelligent (which I believe you are) this should alert you that something is off.

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I'm almost afraid to bring this up but is anyone else (who is familiar with the Torah, Bible and Apocrypha) curious about certain things the UB brought up that agree with, and explain, some things in those books?

 

I know some of you will be thinking 'oh no, not again' but I would like to look at those points from a more logical perspective rather than an emotional one.

 

Just to clarify, the UB was not written by the same person who inspired the Bible and some Apocrypha, there are too many errors and inconsistencies both with science and the Biblical/Torah account.

 

However, there were other things that need further investigation. The UB states that 'Jesus is Michael' and the Bible agrees. In the Book of Revelation (22:16), Jesus called Himself, 'the bright and morning star', which is just another name for a high angel)'. And why the mention of Michael in the Book of Daniel and elsewhere (10:13, 21, 12:1, and Jude 1:9) if he were not a central figure? Also mention of the fact that Michael is a prince, another name for a high angel.

 

The N.T. states that 'the word (Messiah)' was made 'flesh (flesh and blood)' and dwelt among us (John 1:4) and the word was 'in the beginning and made everything' (John 1:3). Which means that this morning star was responsible for creation, which certainly suits the UB designation of 'Creator Son'.

 

And the topic of Melchizedek: I have often wondered who the heck he was. The brief mention in the Torah/O.T. says of him says he was 'priest (almost as in the priest) of the Most High' and 'king of Salem'(Gen. 14:18), and that for gifts, he brought 'bread and wine' (these have strong spiritual meanings).

 

Also: "The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek." (Psalm 110:4)

 

Priest-king, Melchizedek in Gen. 14:8. The Christian explanation was always that Melchizedek was God, although he was mentioned in a different sense than God! It makes much more sense that Melchizedek was from some sort of order of heavenly priests.

 

The UB explanation for these things makes a lot of sense.

 

I see the UB as a bad science text but in other ways I wonder at some of its spiritual claims.

 

After seeing its negative effects on its adherents and believing as I do in spirits, think the UB was authored by apostate angels and thus the reason for some of it's amazing spiritually-related insights.

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  • 3 years later...

various scientific confirmations of the URANTIA Revelation:

 

Um, no, that video predates most of the discussion here, which pretty much beats the dead horse that the Urantia Book is best used as composting material.

 

 

It's too bad that they'll get attention for this sort of drivel when we have a robust scientific research program that the media doesn't seem to want to write much about, :phones:

Buffy

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Buffy's right.

The Urantia was a pretty good hoax; but it was written in the late teens or early twenties of the1900's and published in Chicago ..

But They didn't understand Plate Tectonics at that time.

So now its all absolute bullshit scientifically.  

 

I didn't bother to read the first 5 pages of this thread, because this has been debunked here before by Turtle and others..

 

I tried reading it... and even with an open mind I could tell it was garbage...

 

Move along.. It was a 1920's bullshit Hoax.

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