Bringing up kids without religion...

[InfiniteNow]

There's no absolute right answer. Of course people are reading my post and disagreeing already. For you, just remember it is not a decision to which there is a wrong answer, only different results.

You're right. I DO disagree, and there IS an absolute right answer. You don't teach your kids (or willingly let others teach them) information which you know full well to be nonsense. 'Nuff said.

[Boerseun]

Wow - good replies, guys. Thanks!

 

Well, InfiniteNow, whilst I do appreciate your input, you're missing the point ever so slightly.

 

This is not about me "being a pussy" in need of "growing a spine".

 

This is not about me at all.

 

Maybe the solution lies in me teaching the kid from a very young age to successfully "fake" it. So that he's not exposed to the Christian version of the intolerance you seem to show here.

 

And then at home we can laugh at all the silly Christians out there, and during the week treat them with the same respect tolerance we expect from them.

[InfiniteNow]

You and I know each other pretty well. Were it anybody else asking, I'd have displayed a lot more sensitivity and tact. However, knowing you, and agreeing with you on so many things I wanted to appeal to your sense of pride and manhood.

 

 

Well, InfiniteNow, whilst I do appreciate your input, you're missing the point ever so slightly.

 

This is not about me "being a pussy" in need of "growing a spine".

 

This is not about me at all.

And I have to disagree. This is ENTIRELY about you, since you're the one who has to make this decision which will impact the entire life of your unborn child. Would you really even be considering this if it were anything other than a Christian school? What if it were Muslim? What if they were scientologists? Would my point still be "off-point?"

 

I think not.

 

 

You'll do what you think is right. I have no doubt about that. However, you did ask for opinions. I gave you mine, and I'm now also pointing out how you are working with double standards.

 

For all of the idiots we've crushed here together in the Theology forum, I'm surprised, frankly, to even hear of you considering sending your kids to such a place. Like I said, I bet you wouldn't even be thinking about this if it were anything other than a Christian school, which is somewhat telling.

 

Feel free to dismiss me. I may not always display the most deference or tolerance for bronze aged nonsense, but I'm always authentic and sincere with my posts, especially with people I consider to be friends. B)

[Boerseun]

Well, that's the thing, see.

 

It's not that I'm even considering sending my kid to such a place, it's simply that there is no alternative.

 

This isn't the US.

 

Over here, we've got Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Association embedded in our constitution, very much US-like. But whereas Americans might be aware of the contents of their constitution, over here it's barely worth the paper its printed on.

 

The "Christian School" I referred to, is a Public School. Religious studies is part and parcel of what you get when you go to school in the R of SA.

 

With the passing of Apartheid, millions of practically illiterate black kids have been incorporated into the former white schools. Where Public Schools used to have 25-30 kids per classroom, the average is now close to 50. Kids are assigned a grade based on their age. If you're fifteen, you must be in ninth grade - regardless of whether you can read or write. And this completely and utterly destroys any quality of education for any kid serious about his studies.

 

Because of the above, all over South Africa white families have banded together to start up private schools, so as to ensure at least an acceptable level of education. And don't jump up saying it's a racist thing, those schools are roughly 50% white 50% black - because the growing middle-class black population also want a good education for their kids. Entrance standards are very high, and kids are accepted purely on merit.

 

But the irony lies in the fact that in almost every single case the prime mover in starting a private school was the local church, with the nett result that privately funded Christian schools are about the only way to ensure your kid will have a decent education.

 

The only alternative is Public Schooling, which is a complete and utter cock-up in any possible way you'd care to mention - which also includes the unfortunate presence of Religious Studies being part and parcel of the curriculum.

 

There is, however, one more alternative -

 

- and this is Home Schooling. Me working from home, and Charlene joining the business after the little one made his/her appearance, might make things easier - but then socializing might become an issue...

[Glenn Lyvers]

I home school one of my sons. Its a wonderful experience for us both. Don't discount it as too hard, because the values are real and you cannot put a price on everything. I can't say enough about how pathetic the US schools are in churning out drone-like students who are not challenged or enlightened.

 

I think religion is a beneficial thing, so I don't see it the same way you do, BUT I can say that you are wrong about only having those two choices. You could start your own school, and serve those who are like-minded. Its better to try and make a change than to complain about the way things are.

 

(my humble opinion)

 

Peace,

Glenn

[InfiniteNow]

So, out of curiosity, where do you stand presently on the decision to submit your offspring to the mercedes driving church leaders?

[Boerseun]

How did I know you were gonna bring this up? :(

 

Unfortunately, the situation is still very much the same.

 

The only way (remember, this is South Africa) for my kid to get a decent education, will be either in some sort of religious private school, or home schooling.

 

Home schooling would be fine, but I don't think its good for the kid from a social-skills point of view.

 

Ah, well. At least I've got another six years to wait for a private secular school to open up nearby... (fat chance!)

[Buffy]

Home schooling would be fine, but I don't think its good for the kid from a social-skills point of view.

You can say that again!

 

Ah, well. At least I've got another six years to wait for a private secular school to open up nearby... (fat chance!)

Now hold on a sec: don't wait for someone else to do it, do it yourself!

 

I have a friend who's a Conservative Catholic--the Mel Gibson folk, real evil....yah, yah I know I should "shun" her for her beliefs... :( --and she got together with a couple of other families to start their own school in Pasadena, which has grown very quickly.

 

It certainly takes effort, but every bit of it can be worth it.

 

Just think of it as your contribution to moving us toward a religion-free future! :smart:

 

The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution, :)

Buffy

[Boerseun]

Now hold on a sec: don't wait for someone else to do it, do it yourself!

Not that easy, unfortunately.

 

In this part of the world, finding anybody who could be moved to do anything if it's not expressly "blessed by the Lord" (or one of his henchmen) is a hard thing to do.

 

I don't live in the biggest of towns, we've got about 30,000 people between the twin towns of Brits and Hartbeespoort. And I've been living here for about 19 years now. I know a lot of those 30,000 people. Yet, I know not of a single atheist here. And that includes my family.

 

Ironically, South Africans being as religious as they are, in general hold no grudge against Science, and the Scientific viewpoint on the origins of Life. Evolution, to them, is by and large not a problem. They've got a kind of a dualistic (some would say schizophrenic) outlook on the whole issue. God created the world, and God created life. But the stories in the bible are mere allegories; like any good craftsman God used tools. And Evolution is merely the tool with which he created us. So, the kid would learn good science (as far as the mechanics of evolution is concerned), good maths, good geography etc. at a South African religious private school. They also hold that the Earth's age being 6,000 years is bunk - the evidence clearly show different.

 

The kid will learn well, but the premise would be wrong. So, should I let my kid go to a Christian private school, and tell him/her in private that although the mechanics of evolution is exactly as the school says, it is a blind and rather blunt instrument - not a tool wielded by a conscious designer?

 

The "Creationist" species as experienced in the US is not a fair description of the religious species we find over here. Although there is a very high number of Christians in my town, they by-and-large respect the findings of science. But they have NO time and NO respect for atheists, strangely enough. You can be an astronomer saying that everything came from a Big Bang. No problem. You can be a biologist claiming that every living thing evolved from the first self-replicating molecule in the primordial soup - no poblem. As long as you acknowledge their proposition that God lit the fuse on the Big Bang, and God used evolution as a tool to create humans. They have no problem with either theory - just with the fact that if you believe it to be the truth, you have to give the final credit to God.

 

It's a very strange scenario, though.

 

Although in the last few years, especially in Johannesburg, quite a few charismatic bullshitters have started questioning evolution and Science in general. I suppose it's because they use American charismatic figures for inspiration, and see them doing it. Also, it creates an emotional point of contact with the lesser-schooled. So the scene in my town might be drastically different by the time my kid is of school age. Because like the Jo'burg charismatics look towards the US for inspiration, the small-town charismatics look towards Jo'burg, and follow the trends seemingly making the most money.

 

Luckily, I've still got a few years to sort it out...

 

Scary thought - if my kid was born the day I joined Hypo, s/he would be 5 years old now!!! :(

[enorbet2]

Greetings Boerseun, ..Everyone..

 

I often wonder if the "there oughta be a law" concept assuming an outcome from some sort of enforced, whether through coercion or reason from an authority figure, is the effective, let alone right, way to go. Since many of us here are non-believers yet were raised by theistic parents and social pressures, it should be fairly obvious that the results of indoctrination are not a given. On one level I hate to quote a Pop song for any kind of credence (and this is bound to be a thoroughly awful pun) but since it is a form of social commentary let me quote from CCR's "Bootleg" which states

 

"Take you a glass of water

Make it against the law

See how good the water tastes

When you can't have any at all"

 

I could probably have said that more succinctly but it wouldn't have been as light as I'd like to keep this. The point is that as in Prohibition it seems to me we make the issue one of extreme importance by devoting so much money, attention, media space, focus etc. where people feel they must choose one side or the other, polarize, and the sooner the better. This seems counter-productive to any side of that argument and I wanted to use that as an analogy just to avoid the onus of religion for a moment.

 

Considering human history with all of the various pogroms, persecutions, and Inquisitions (only recently disbanded iirc) as well as current society peer pressures, there seems a natural tendency for those of us that choose non-belief to assume a role of hostile victim. I submit that this is counter-productive as well and for similar reasons - making too big a deal about a non-essential choice. It can't go away if it is artificially propped up by extreme focus and controversy. It should be fairly obvious by global events that the "kill 'em all, let their God sort 'em out" philosophy is not only ineffective but counter-productive as well.

 

Since Boerseun's major point is that his child must grow within a highly structured, well-defined and considerably polarizing environment, wouldn't the safest tack be one of "taking the wind out of the sails"? Isn't it safer and more character building to teach your child that although there will be many people trying to exert pressure to choose, this is not their right and in fact it is a much more fundamental right to think for oneself, to expect respect, and have the right to not share one's concepts of spirituality, keeping them private?

 

Additionally, the parent can progressively teach the child that this is not really a pressing issue other than socially, and socially doesn't trump free determination. Of what real value is there trying to decide something that can't be decided? Given that any Creator, as far as mere humans can tell, must be outside the created, the Universe, there is not now nor will there likely ever be any way to prove either way and so what if you could? How would that really affect your life or in this case your child's?

 

Specifically, how about teaching one's child to answer pressure in direct proportion from "That's private. You shouldn't ask me that." to "Am I really different or not your friend because of a label?". It just seems to me this dilemma is equivalent to what the parents of any minority must face, and first and foremost, before school instilling self-confidence and free thinking is a must. While we are all in principle a minority of one, such a question might be best answered by parents of a truly oppressed minority. There is considerable difference between being ostracized and lynched.

 

OTOH if this isn't about actual beliefs but rather appearances ie: going to church, how badly do you suffer for not going, or do you?

 

If all your child has to deal with is "knife eyes" and giggles behind the back or a punch or two, they will be lucky indeed and good character will be their best defense. It appears they are on fairly safe ground there since your posting this and in the bully thread implies you have the primary qualifications of a good parent - to make them feel loved and respected as a unique person. Fortunately you get them pretty much to yourself for those critical first five years. Odds are, your family will do just fine.