Bringing up kids without religion...

[Boerseun]

Soooo...

 

Not really a religion topic, more psychology, I guess - but I thought I might as well park this thread here.

 

In my neck of the woods, religion is a Big Thing. I think amongst Westerners, the Afrikaner people are probably one of the most religious. I have no rock-hard evidence to base this on, but you can't find anybody at home on a Sunday morning where I live.

 

I was brought up in church, I was baptised, I did the whole Sunday School routine, we even had Bible Class in school - which was a Government School, by the way! I tried to be religious my whole childhood through, but when I reached my teens I realized it was bunk. Much to my parents' dismay (they are staunch members of the Dutch Reformed Church to this day), I dropped out of the whole thing. I could see no sense nor reason for the existence of it. Yet, I still participated in Bible Class and went to church, mostly because "everybody else was doing it".

 

Now here's my problem:

 

Me being an atheist won't change the religious composition of my neighbourhood. As a matter of fact, when I grew up, the sentiment amongst church-goers was to respect the Muslims, the Hindus, everybody with a religion. They might be "wrong", but hey - at least they try. But an atheist was shunned and condemned from all sides. You'll have a ridiculous situation where a Christian and his Muslim neighbour will live civilly next to each other and exchange friendly nods over the fence as they mow their lawns on a Saturday morning - but they will both viciously team up against the atheist across the road.

 

I've known a few atheists in my childhood. However interesting, good, or bad these individuals were in their own capacity, they were some of the loneliest people I've known.

 

And now that I've got a kid on the way, things become a bit more complicated.

 

Here's the story:

 

Charlene and I have been living together for almost four years now. We've been to church five times. Four weddings and a funeral, incidentally. We are both atheists, and feel no pressing need to get married. Sure - a civil union is about to take place, but this is merely to formalise the union in terms of law, and to give the kid legal surety in terms of his relationship with me. As far as I'm concerned, we've been married long ago. The law actually caters for that - Charlene is already, without signing any papers, my "Common Law Wife". But we will go and sign whatever papers the government deems necessary, and after that, we'll have a big party with our family and friends to celebrate our commitment to each other. But none of this "by the Grace of God I now pronounce you Man and Wife" bullshit.

 

But now rearing the little heifer becomes an issue. Because, like I said above, 99% of this kids' peers will be religious. And there's nothing on this good and green Earth as evil and nasty as a little kid. Especially when they've identified another kid that, for some reason or another, "is not like us".

 

So what to do?

 

Should I pretend to raise my kid religious, but at home tell my kid that its all bullshit and fairytales, but go and sit in church on Sunday to make him/her fit in with their peers?

 

You have to keep in mind how religious these Afrikaners are to appreciate the dilemma I'm sitting with, here.

 

Should I approach religion with my kid in the same way as I'd approach Santa Claus? Tell him that it exist for a few years until he's old enough to understand why his existence is impossible?

 

I don't know. All I know is that the little atheists growing up with me when I was a kid happily believing in God, had a hard time.

 

Any ideas?

[Buffy]

Yah, consider that it's not about "believing in God" but it's a social thing that's about being an Afrikaner.

 

I grew up basically Pagan. As I tell people who ask, I believe in Santa Claus and the Pesach Bunny. My ex is Jewish, and when we got married--by a Rabbi to keep his mom happy--we promised to bring our kids up Jewish.

 

I didn't mind: I grew up in an area of LA where half of my elementary school class was Jewish, so counting the Catholics, the Protestants--which my family I guess informally is, although none of us has been to a church in half a century--we were a minority!

 

We brought her up Jewish as promised, and she had her Bat Mitzvah last year and loved doing it. She's actually pretty defensive about her religion insofar as being a Jew still means you know what it means to be persecuted by unthinking idiots who blythely blather on about America being a "Christian Nation", the "War on Christmas", etc. etc. etc. But does she get all dreamy and wacky about "believing in God?" Nope. Doesn't even really register.

 

I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that Judaism is so darned unspecific and mystical about the whole God thing, that it's really no obstacle to absolutely devour every Evolution book she can get her hands on.

 

Now I don't know about the Dutch Reformed Church, but I have the feeling that the kid is going to follow your lead more than that of the talking head up on the pulpit. Just keep it to Easter and Xmas eve and I think she'll take the hint!

 

Just think about this: do you want her to hate her friends at school because of their religious beliefs? Probably better to let her know that it's "just part of being an Afrikaner" and it's "no big deal."

 

Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society, :phones:

Buffy

[pamela]

I understand your fear of your child being ostracized and picked on. Trust me, kids do not a reason to pick on someone;they will make up one if necessary. Raise your child to be a free thinker. Let him know what you believe/disbelieve and why. Above all be honest. There is never a good reason to promote falsehood with a child, even at the cost of santa or the easter bunny. All you will get if you choose to do so, is them questioning your honesty when they find out differently. Your child needs to trust you. Present the differences in people and how that makes this world an exciting place. Each one of us is unique with different ideologies, beliefs and thoughts.Promote his uniqueness and praise him. You are the center of his world for several years. Your opinion and Charlene's is what will be most important. Reinforce that other's opinions do not make who he is, but how he views himself.:naughty:

 

Pam ( a.k.a. Spam, Spacecase, damn Yankee, carpetbagger, heretic, "oh, you're one of them", etc.......too many have i been called to list )

 

food for thought

" if you don't like what i am wearing, don't look at me. I didn't dress for you, i dressed for me

If you don't like what i have to say, don't listen to me. I don't think and speak for you, i do it for me ";)

[sman]

This was very moving for me. I've gone through the exact same thing. My son is nine now and we have (my wife and I) been careful to keep all religion AND atheism from being preached to him. Kindof "teach your children how to think, not what to think".

 

Not long ago at dinner we were discussing - I forget, ghosts I think, pseudoscience & paranormal are as prevailant as religion in rural Maine - and Ben interjected with "I think when you die you *makes a face* rot and turn to dirt!"

"Well - you're entitled to that" I think was my reply - just something to hide the fact that I was glowing with pride. Ben is an atheist. Again, he's nine. He is a very happy child. He is more mature, well rounded and, I must say, smarter than his peers. He's also very close to his mother & father.

 

Atheism IS very lonely, I can certainly reaffirm this. And I do worry about that for Ben, but not as much as I worry about him contracting this very powerful and deabilitating mind-virus, religion. The best I can do about the lonely is make sure he knows he has at least two atheist to talk to, his parents.

 

This is not advice, just a success story that I thought you might like to hear. Good luck, Boerseun. I wish you and your family the very best. Thank you for this thread.

[InfiniteNow]

With due respect to the turmoil you are feeling, my friend, you've presented a false dichotomy.

 

When humans are young, their brains are still forming... still organizing... they are still learning "how to think." Intentionally putting your kid into the religion "mind virus" will forever change their brain, no matter how much you may tell them later, "Oh, that was all just a bunch of rubbish. Forget all that." That's not how it works.

 

You're laying the foundation of a structure. You're digging out the footing, and pouring the concrete. Don't let a bunch of material into that foundation which isn't going to make it stronger. You're actually considering letting the foundation of your childs mind get rotten with iron age fairy tales written by tribal peoples who didn't even understand germ theory or why the stars shine.

 

I'll just come right out and say it... Quit being such a pussy, stand up for your ideals, and figure out another solution. Don't send your kid to the indoctrination camps to be reprogrammed. Just don't do it. It's really that simple.

 

Now, with that said, I appreciate the difficult social nature of the people around you. Being different... being ostracized... feeling like you don't fit in... Those are all real challenges, and often unhelpful for a young human. But here's the thing... In your cost benefit analysis, would you prefer your kid to feel like they fit in, even if they are part of a group of dogmatic zombies? Or, would you prefer your child be a free thinker who sees reality with clarity and is not swayed by ridiculous ideas about Thor Zeus Apollo Baal The Flying Spaghetti Monster some being which is an invention of weak human minds?

 

The choice is clear... at least to me. You just don't teach your kid that the earth is flat and only 6,000 years old... you just don't, even if all of your neighbors teach that bunk nonsense to their kids. You don't sacrifice your clarity... give your kid a chance to be part of the enlightenment, do not add them as another foot soldier to the religious institutions which are slowing down our collective progress.

 

 

Back to my false dichotomy... You suggested that your only two options were to take the kid to church or let them feel different. You could also move, or find like minded people (however hard that may be) in your area, or you could grow a spine and stand up for what you know to be correct. :naughty:

[sanctus]

I do not agree with infinite, my first 10 years I lived in an rural area of Switzerland, so it was very catholic. At school one had this religion courses, every tuesday morning the whole school went to church, etc... My parents never go to church (I don't know actually if they are atheists, one thing I got from them is that I do not like when atheism becomes a religion, I'm sure though they are not believers in any of the existing religions, but maybe believe just in something) and when there were this kind of pilgrimages to some big church the parents of a friend took me with them...there was never a problem, all I got from that is from the start that there are two ways of seeing things and so I learned to think for myself.

When I at 10 I moved to italian part of Switzerland, as religious as the place I moved from, in the religion class I never said the prayer "I believe..." because I did not know. Then at high school I learned to play tabletennis, because I did not go to the religion class anymore :-)

 

So in resumee, I think it is just important that your kids sees that there are two ways and that he/she has to make up her own mind...i.e. learning to think alone.

[InfiniteNow]

I highly doubt that all of you would be so okay with sending the kid were we discussing scientology instead of christianity. However, when viewed objectively, they each stand on equal footing when it comes to basing their ideologies in reality and the damage they do to the human mind.

[sanctus]

But if the kids learn to think there is no risk to permanent brainwash. i think that the same reason that makes a kid easily influencable makes also the influence less profound...

[InfiniteNow]

A worthwhile post here:

 

Alexander the Atheist: Religious Indoctrination: A Loaded Gun

 

 

 

Just tell your kids the truth. Don't comply with the religious indoctrination approach just because it's easier socially.

[Moontanman]

I'm not sure I agree with any one here, I was raised by religious parents, one of which was an abusive drunk. I can remember being quite young and seeing the contradiction of religion and reality. while most of my peers swallowed the whole religion thing completely I never did. Of course in the US religion is seldom as staunchly followed as you describe in South Africa. It can be, but I never lived in a neighborhood where even most people when to church much less everyone and I got little or no religious instruction in school that I can recall. I raised both of my children with the knowledge that religion is not the truth and that science at least pursues the truth. so far it seems to have worked out pretty good.

[Buffy]

This started out as a copacetic thread with interesting implications and no clear cut answers.

 

Those extremists with a chip on their shoulder and an ax they want to grind are warned: turning this into yet another war of intolerance where giving an inch to "the enemy" generates spewing invective will be mercilessly infracted.

 

If you want to hate your fellow man, please do it somewhere else.

 

What is objectionable, what is dangerous, about extremists is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. The evil is not what they say about their cause, but what they say about their opponents, :)

Buffy

[Thunderbird]

From an earler thread

 

In our distant past tribal society was a small island of security surrounded by a vastness that was both sublime and threatening. The source of fear was to be out of balance with the forces of the natural world, which at different times could be nurturing beautiful, chaotic and deadly.

 

Today we find ourselves in larger social landscape that has expanded to the point were the nature is seen by most children as a relic of the past. The security boundaries from the threat of nature seems more distant and only affect our subconscious as symbols that represent the landscape of our collective ethos.

 

Our children's identities are no longer shaped by fears of being out of sink with the natural order, and those Gods that emerged from that existence. The wrath is felt from the fears expressed though the parents own fears, as they look out over the social landscape of possibilities that the child will inherit.

 

Mythology

What I have argued in this paper changes my view of mythology. Because a god represents a principle of organization, myths about the gods say that such principles create and regulate the world. But science says the same thing. Natural structure, whether it be an atom, a living organism, a brain, or a galaxy, is created and regulated by self-organization. Self-organization is guided by principles of organization. It follows that a polytheistic myth is an accurate, though metaphorical, description of the process by which the world is created and regulated. Mythology seems to have intuited the process of self-organization which science is only now beginning to explain. The congruence here between myth and science is too great to be coincidental. All of this supports Jung?s emphasis on mythology.

What is an archetype-as-such?

The personality is at least an assembly of instinctual impulses, affects, feelings, sensory perceptions, images, thoughts, hopes and the like, together with the memories of all of these. These components are not simply jumbled together: they are organized into a dynamic system which functions adaptively. But from whence comes the organization? Jung's answer was that organization came from the archetypes. From clinical evidence we know something of what an archetype contributes: the mother archetype, for example, contributes containing which leads to security and trust, or devouring which leads to anxiety and mistrust. But what is an archetype-as-such and how does it organize the personality?

The field of cognitive neuroscience is new and rapidly growing. It integrates knowledge from dynamic systems theory, neuroscience, cognitive psychology and the clinical disciplines. I show in this paper how cognitive neuroscience may help us to understand the archetype-as-such. For an earlier discussion of archetypes and self-organization see McDowell (1999).

 

The three gorillas: an archetype orders a dynamic system. Maxson J. McDowell

.

[InfiniteNow]

Those extremists with a chip on their shoulder and an ax they want to grind are warned: turning this into yet another war of intolerance where giving an inch to "the enemy" generates spewing invective will be mercilessly infracted.

 

If you want to hate your fellow man, please do it somewhere else.

 

Yeah, couldn't agree more. You guys should really be ashamed of yourselves. :)

[freeztar]

That's a tough situation B.

I like most of the suggestions given so far. IMHO, I do think it is important to strike a balance between free thinking and social well-being for a child. Too much religious exposure would be a bad think as well as too little (for reason given by yourself and Pamela, but also because it might set the stage for a teenage religious rebellion, effectively creating the opposite desired result).

 

Consider yourself to be lucky that you have an understanding mate in this regard. My wife is not religious, but she is a theist. She's told me flat out (while quite upset) that our kids were going to be raised with a belief in God and that they were going to go to church. :)

My response was "That's fine, but it will not be me taking them to church or instructing them on such things".If we do have kids, which is still undecided, I will make it my job to teach them critical thinking, objectiveness, skepticism, etc. They can then decide for themselves, cause let's face it, when they are grown up, they will be making their own choices anyway. I know I did. (still don't have the heart to tell my mom I'm an atheist though)

 

So, in summary, I think balance is paramount. Arm them with the best mental tools, expose them to a variety of beliefs and cultures, and hope they use these to make wise decisions in their life.

[Buffy]

The problem that really crops up is when children detect the conflict between the parents, so I'd be careful with that one Freezy.

 

The trap that so many fall into with negative feelings toward religion is really based on the notion that it's somehow a "slippery slope": that *any* level of religious belief is fully equivalent to wacko, fundamentalist, anti-human, cults, as unfortunately so much of the born-again community has become.

 

That sort of absolutist belief can be both the source of ongoing, irreconcilable conflict in your marriage as well as a source of future--and unnecessary--conflict with your kids if you try to make your kids accept it unquestioningly because you say so.

 

Honestly, kids are smart, but they follow their parent's lead: they only rebel if they think they're being talked down to, and you can assure them of that by telling them that religion is evil and that dad refuses to have anything to do with it.

 

I wouldn't be happy if my daughter was a religious wingnut either, but by letting her find out on her own about religion and seeing that what I wanted her to do was decide what's right on her own, she has ended up basically taking the opportunity given to her to learn on her own: she's got some metaphysical and philosophical grounding in a "real" religion, but realizes from her more free-spirit mom--who didn't pass any judgements on that "real" religion--that it has no more answers about the way the world works than any other source of "truth" and with just about everything that comes down the pike, she's the one who has to decide for herself what to do in her life.

 

Blindly following what someone else says--whether its the Rabbi or her parents--doesn't even register in her brain, because she's seen that all are fallible.

 

The key thing of course is that those parents just happen to be enlightened enough to admit when they're wrong, and guess what: it meas she trusts both of us when we do give her "advice." The Rabbi hasn't been *quite* as willing to admit fallibility, but has shown a bit, and after much complaining at first, she actually just decided she liked going to the regular social evenings at the Temple (and there are a couple of cute guys there to boot!)....

 

So, mission accomplished. :)

 

I like to think that even at my ripe old age, I'm still learning, and I even learn from my kid. That can be humiliating unless you stop to think about the fact that you never know everything, and that the infallibility of your positions can paint yourself into a corner you really don't want to be in.

 

Life is rarely black and white, and it's amazing what you can learn from everyone if you'd stop and listen to what they're actually saying rather than assuming they mean the worst. If your wife wants to take the kids to church, maybe you can get involved in picking one that contains people that you like and want to associate with. If you go in assuming that any organized church is going to be filled with Jerry Falwells and Sarah Palins, you're making assumptions that you might later regret: it's likely to become a self-fulfilling prophecy with the very painful "alimony" or worse "child support" ;) , but more importantly, missing out on potential life long friends, who, while they do go to church or temple a couple times a year, really pretty much think the way you do.

 

Think of it this way, it's kind of like gays in the military: are those big bad Navy Seals really going to be incapacitated by a gay guy on the raft? I know that some people are unable to conceive of anyone with any religious belief as not being single-handedly capable of bringing about the end of civilization as we know it, but that just seems to me to be a little biased and ignorant.

 

You have to be bigger than that, because I can assure you, that sort of obstinate ignorance is exactly what kids pick up on at a very early age....

 

We are none of us infallible--not even the youngest of us, :)

Buffy

[freeztar]

The problem that really crops up is when children detect the conflict between the parents, so I'd be careful with that one Freezy.

 

Duly noted.

 

The trap that so many fall into with negative feelings toward religion is really based on the notion that it's somehow a "slippery slope": that *any* level of religious belief is fully equivalent to wacko, fundamentalist, anti-human, cults, as unfortunately so much of the born-again community has become.

I hope you're not referring to me.

 

That sort of absolutist belief can be both the source of ongoing, irreconcilable conflict in your marriage as well as a source of future--and unnecessary--conflict with your kids if you try to make your kids accept it unquestioningly because you say so.

I think you're missing the point. I would never make my kids, nor anyone else's accept my "absolutionist belief" because I say so. Quite the opposite. As I stated in my previous post, it would be their decision.

 

Honestly, kids are smart, but they follow their parent's lead: they only rebel if they think they're being talked down to, and you can assure them of that by telling them that religion is evil and that dad refuses to have anything to do with it.

The opposite is equally true. Kids often rebel against what their parents believe, in my experience.

 

I wouldn't be happy if my daughter was a religious wingnut either, but by letting her find out on her own about religion and seeing that what I wanted her to do was decide what's right on her own, she has ended up basically taking the opportunity given to her to learn on her own: she's got some metaphysical and philosophical grounding in a "real" religion, but realizes from her more free-spirit mom--who didn't pass any judgements on that "real" religion--that it has no more answers about the way the world works than any other source of "truth" and with just about everything that comes down the pike, she's the one who has to decide for herself what to do in her life.

 

I agree. It's all about personal choice (unless of course the choice is wingnut). ;)

 

If your wife wants to take the kids to church, maybe you can get involved in picking one that contains people that you like and want to associate with. If you go in assuming that any organized church is going to be filled with Jerry Falwells and Sarah Palins,

 

Umm...you do remember where I live right? :)

Just kidding. Like I said, I know there are alternative churches out there, but I'm just not interested.

 

you're making assumptions that you might later regret: it's likely to become a self-fulfilling prophecy with the very painful "alimony" or worse "child support" :) , but more importantly, missing out on potential life long friends, who, while they do go to church or temple a couple times a year, really pretty much think the way you do.

 

Two things: 1. Alimony? Seriously? 2. You make the assumption that I'm going to miss out on lifelong friends because I don't go to church? Or that I will never know people that go to church?

 

None of my non-cyber friends are atheists. Some go to church regularly, some never go. None of my current friends were from church. In fact, in all the years that I went to church three times a week, and all the church friends I made, I never once related with anybody from church outside of church or church related events. I'm not opposed to church people, I'm opposed to church (I was raised Lutheran and was taught that the body is the temple, no middle man required).

 

Missed social opportunities? Well, I'm probably missing out on these all the time at regular atheist meetings in town. I'm not interested in these either.

 

Think of it this way, it's kind of like gays in the military: are those big bad Navy Seals really going to be incapacitated by a gay guy on the raft? I know that some people are unable to conceive of anyone with any religious belief as not being single-handedly capable of bringing about the end of civilization as we know it, but that just seems to me to be a little biased and ignorant.

 

You have to be bigger than that, because I can assure you, that sort of obstinate ignorance is exactly what kids pick up on at a very early age....

Of course.

[Glenn Lyvers]

I am a father. I see your dilemma. I did not take my kids to church at all. I believe God exists from reason and intuition, but purposefully instilling this belief system into impressionable children, without absolute proof based in science, has been a difficult struggle for me. I chose not to.

 

I did not want to lead my kids to a "faith based" conclusion, but rather, I intended to wait until they were old enough to understand the arguments from reason and intuition, and then form their own conclusions based on the arguments on both sides of the "spirited" debate. (heh - bad pun)

 

My older son decided to go to church with his friends anyway, and I had nothing to do with that decision. He likes it and goes faithfully. It was not in my "plan" and I was discussing this with a fellow philosopher. It boils down to this, (in my humble opinion) - faith has advantages to health and provides for support in times of trouble from your church, family, friends etc etc. So there are worse things in life than being a church going person of faith.

 

It's a huge issue in our country, that of people who believe and don't and scientists on both sides of the debate tossing out facts and figures which don't silence the other side.

 

As a dad, I will give you this advice. Be honest about your feelings/beliefs with your kids. If you don't believe, tell them why. Consider allowing them be exposed to the church, if for no other reason than to allow them to have the experience, and come to understand all the people who believe. They will have a better perspective of the world that way. They will understand terrorists and charitable people in ways that others, who never walked into a church, may never appreciate. Its an odd thing to say but it is a perspective which is not altogether a bad thing. That's all I'm saying about that.

 

I don't want to push you in either direction really. That's not what these forums are for either.

 

There's no absolute right answer. Of course people are reading my post and disagreeing already. For you, just remember it is not a decision to which there is a wrong answer, only different results. So go with your intuition and maybe it's not best to seek the answer here. Look to your own heart for the answer, I'm sure it will be the right one for you.

 

Good luck!

Glenn