Let's talk gods

[Turtle]

If you look at this genesis story, presented by Turtle, it sounds just like a dream. Many of these stories came from special dreams that were spontaneously created in a natural way. This dream is full of symbols, which is the language of the unconscious mind. It tells about the birth of the modern human mind as it left natural instinct.

 

Let me try to interpret these symbols, like a dream. ...

 

Nicely written exegesis Hydrog! :cheer: If you haven't run across Joseph Campbells The Power of Myth, I think you will find it interesting. :naughty:

 

Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth 1 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=227781013595028167

 

Additional Source: >> Joseph Campbell Foundation

[HydrogenBond]

Thanks for the link. I watched it. It brought me back to my studies of collective symbolism many years ago. What I had learned back then was there are common themes to almost all mythology. The details may be different but the gist is the same. Jung formulated his theory of the collective unconscious from the similarity in symbolism and myth even in cultures that had no contact with one another. The collective unconscious generated the myths and could then be used to affect the collective unconscious in the group. I modernize this calling it personality software that is part of the operating system of the brain.

 

Mythology shows how this software interacts or should interact to upgrade the operating system for that time in history. Myths linger as long as this update version has some use.

 

For example; Little Red Riding Hood. She personifies the archetype of relationship in a man. She is a sweet girl so this means a good hearted young man. She is bringing food to her sick grandma. Her grandma represents a feedforward affect connected to the anticipated state of the young man's heart affecting its future state. In other words, if one is angry as a young person this can stick and make the man an angry old man. Grandma is sick because something is changing his good heart and the brain is time projecting this future state.

 

The big bad wolf is software just below the shadow due to the animal symbolism. He is not a good animal which shows his connection to the shadow. He dresses up like grandma to eat LRRH. If you ever wondered why he didn't eat grandma while he had a chance, it is because the future was not yet defined. It depended on the choices that would soon be made. If he ate LRRH, grandma would be next. The wolf in grandma clothes symbolizes a modified animal urge that is generating emotion. An example is if you are really hungry anything tastes good. If you are not hungry the emotion changes for many of the same things. The instinct can create an irrational amplification of feeling that is not in line with reasonable emotion. The affect is two different object relationships. This is the lure that the young heart is about to face that could disillusion him for the rest of their life.

 

But luckily for LRRH, there is a woodman nearby who hears her cries for help. He is the archetype of meaning which sort of makes sense of its all. It could be common sense that preserves the present and helps to set the future. Grandma gets well and they live happily ever after.

 

To a child it is a fun story. But it was also a line of programming this is inserted into the operating system. To the mind of the past, the affect was sort of a like a Window's Update which would be run on all the brain computers in the culture.

[Moontanman]

For example; Little Red Riding Hood. She personifies the archetype of relationship in a man. She is a sweet girl so this means a good hearted young man. She is bringing food to her sick grandma. Her grandma represents a feedforward affect connected to the anticipated state of the young man's heart affecting its future state. In other words, if one is angry as a young person this can stick and make the man an angry old man. Grandma is sick because something is changing his good heart and the brain is time projecting this future state.

 

The big bad wolf is software just below the shadow due to the animal symbolism. He is not a good animal which shows his connection to the shadow. He dresses up like grandma to eat LRRH. If you ever wondered why he didn't eat grandma while he had a chance, it is because the future was not yet defined. It depended on the choices that would soon be made. If he ate LRRH, grandma would be next. The wolf in grandma clothes symbolizes a modified animal urge that is generating emotion. An example is if you are really hungry anything tastes good. If you are not hungry the emotion changes for many of the same things. The instinct can create an irrational amplification of feeling that is not in line with reasonable emotion. The affect is two different object relationships. This is the lure that the young heart is about to face that could disillusion him for the rest of their life.

 

But luckily for LRRH, there is a woodman nearby who hears her cries for help. He is the archetype of meaning which sort of makes sense of its all. It could be common sense that preserves the present and helps to set the future. Grandma gets well and they live happily ever after.

 

To a child it is a fun story. But it was also a line of programming this is inserted into the operating system. To the mind of the past, the affect was sort of a like a Window's Update which would be run on all the brain computers in the culture.

 

HB, are you sure you read the original story? The wolf does indeed eat grandma, LRRH is a girl not a good man and the woodsman cuts grandma out of the BBW. I'm not to sure about your interpretation but I guess you can read what ever you want into this.

[Turtle]

Thanks for the link. I watched it. It brought me back to my studies of collective symbolism many years ago. What I had learned back then was there are common themes to almost all mythology.

 

Just to clarify, I only linked to one part of many. Don't want you missing out on the only-a-few-years-ago knowledge & learning of Mr. Campbell. :)

 

To a child it [Little Red Riding Hood] is a fun story. But it was also a line of programming this is inserted into the operating system. To the mind of the past, the affect was sort of a like a Window's Update which would be run on all the brain computers in the culture.

 

Riding Hood is hardly a god myth, which is the topic here. The common version is many times re-written variant of a Brothers Grimm story. >> Little Red Riding Hood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[cooloola]

Turtle - not only does Gaia rest on the back of the Great Turtle its turtles all the way down!

 

What a great thread. There's a wonderful book by Clarissa Pinkola Estes (Jungian analyst and cantadora storyteller) its called 'Women who run with the wolves' - stories she has found from various cultures which are of particular benefit to women.

 

and doesn't Ishtar sound like a fun girl!

 

I'm rather fond of Ganesh. Created by Pavarti (consort of Shiva) while she was in the bath and Shiva was away she made a 'boy' out of sandlewood and breathed life into him. She set him at the door to her bath chamber and instructed him not to let anyone pass. Shiva returns from war and gets angry that he is denied entry to his woman's chamber and cuts off Ganesh's head. Parvati is wild that her 'son' has been decapitated and in her anger turns into Kali and threatens to destroy heaven and earth and more. To placate her, Shiva instructs his hordes to go out and find a child with its mother's back turned and to cut off its head and return with the head. Instead they bring back the head of an elephant which is duly placed onto Ganesh and Parvati breathes life back into her 'son'. To further placate Shiva says whoever worships Ganesh before all other gods will be recompensed. Ganesh is always worshipped first in the temples of all gods in India.

Ganesh is the supreme god of wisdom, prosperity and good fortune.

[HydrogenBond]

In Jungian Psychology, the female side of a man is call the anima and the male side of the female is called the animus. The youthful female in a male's dream is part of him or his female side. Shiva, although male in the myth is the masculine side of a woman. Pavarti, although a female in the myth is the female side of a male. This myth shows a youthful couple and not an old couple. If they were personified as real old the opposite would be true. They are youthful looking.

 

One thing that indicates this reversal is Pavarti in the bath with the door blockaded by her fabricated son. The bath is connected to the unconscious mind. One way to look at this, the male or husband is preoccupied in mediation, clearing his mind (bath). His wife returns and through her masculine side, she wants to know what he is thinking. The boy at the door of his mind, is sort of the dazed look on his face. Picture a tough guy finding a soft place in his mind where is mind is calm.

 

Shiva cuts off the head of the boy with a good nagging session. She is being left out in the cold due to his long bath or mental preoccupation since it is not easy to talk about but needs to be experienced. This reality check, snaps him out of his meditation. He goes into a rage ready to flip out. I

 

His wife masculine side or Shiva pacifies him by placing the head of an elephant on the body of her fabricated son. The elephant is intelligent and powerful. She learns from this situation and thereafter reacts to his meditative face in a respectful way.

 

Here is an easier way to see this. Behind great men are women. The woman's masculine side may crave the power, even more than him, but culture can be set up in a barrier, where only her husband can express their (her) craving. He becomes more masculine and ambitious through the subtle manipulation or even commands of this wife's masculine side. She can pump his ego, act soft, weak or whatever pushes the button. This is very important to drive him.

 

The wife (shiva) comes home and she see him sort of acting immature. He has this meditative daze. There goes the new house in the suburbs. She tries to nag him straight for the team and chops off the head of this softened man. He flips out because he is working through his meditation. It suddenly dawns on her his wisdom is the key to their good fortune and prosperity. It could represent the transition into the spiritual mode away from a more materialistic mode.

[HydrogenBond]

The female character fabricating her own son, is not a biological reproduction. This is similar to invention that often occurs in the male imagination. He produces brain children. The elephant head shift it back to instinct so it is grounded.

 

If you look at Hindu philosophy it is often seeking detachment from material reality into deeper realms of the mind. Outwardly this looks like no productivity, since it may not produce tangible things. The mystic meditating is not building a house. Unless he writes a book or builds a cult to make wealth, wisdom has value but not material value.

 

Relative to the wife of that time, her neighbors can see a new house and she can feel external feedback. But her friends can't see the qualities of wisdom. He husband can steal a ring and put it on her finger and she gets instant recognition. But how does she wear the esoteric ring from her husbands wisdom to show her friends? He is a slacker and should be out stealing rings. The myth sort of shows a cultural change where now this wisdom stuff has cultural value.

 

Women don't care either way, they go where the boys are. But on the other hand, they don't like to leave the herd, forever. She may date the rebel but will want to marry someone more stable in the community. The myth says to the women, wisdom is the most important. So now she can support the wise man husband and still hold her head up high. The gods for other activities are now considered of secondary importance. Culture begins to shift priorities. The women place a new face on this behavior. It is the face of the large, strong and intelligent animal. The dazed looking mystic is not a slacker but is working hard like the elephant, able to lift trees.

[Turtle]

The Walum Olum

or

Red Record

Long ago there was a mighty snake and beings evil to men.

 

This mighty snake hated those who were there (and) greatly disquieted those whom he hated.

 

They both did harm, they both injured each other, both were not in peace.

 

Driven from their homes they fought with this murderer.

 

The mighty snake firmly resolved to harm the men.

 

He brought three persons, he brought a monster, he brought a rushing water.

 

Between the hills the water rushed and rushed, dashing through and through, destroying much.

 

Nanabush, the Strong White One, grandfather of beings, grandfather of men, was on the Turtle Island.

 

There he was walking and creating, as he passed by and created the turtle.

 

Beings and men all go forth, they walk in the floods and shallow waters, down stream thither to the Turtle Island.

 

There were many monster fishes, which ate some of them.

 

The Manito daughter, coming, helped with her canoe, helped all, as they came and came.

 

[And also] Nanabush, Nanabush, the grandfather of all, the grandfather of beings, the grandfather of men, the grandfather of the turtle.

 

The men then were together on the turtle, like to turtles.

 

Frightened on the turtle, they prayed on the turtle that what was spoiled should be restored.

The water ran off, the earth dried, the lakes were at rest all was silent, and the mighty snake departed.

 

PART III.

 

After the rushing waters (had subsided) the Lenape of the turtle were close together, in hollow houses, living together there.

 

It freezes where they abode, it snows where they abode it storms where they abode, it is cold where they abode.

 

At this northern place they speak favorably of mild, cool (lands), With many deer and buffaloes.

 

As they journeyed, some being strong, some rich, they separated into house-builders and hunters;

 

The strongest, the most united, the purest, were the hunters.

 

The hunters showed themselves at the north, at the east, at the south, at the west.

 

In that ancient country, in that northern country, in that turtle country, the best of the Lenape were the Turtle men.

 

All the cabin fires of that land were disquieted, and all said to their priest, " Let us go.

 

To the Snake land to the east they went forth, going away, earnestly grieving.

 

Split asunder, weak, trembling, their land burned, they went, torn and broken, to the Snake Island.

THE WALAM OLUM: ITS ORIGIN AND AUTHENTICITY

The pictographs accompany the text here: >>A portion of The Walam Olum:

 

Full text of 1938 translation: >> Cedar Mesa Project, Walum Olum

 

Additional historical material: >> Thw Wallum Olum

The name "Wallum Olum" means "Painted Record." It is a record consisting of symbolic glyphs or pictographs which were usually inscribed on wood or birch bark. Each of these glyphs was used as a memory aid in reciting the poetic verse which went with it. The symbolism of these glyphs is rooted in Indian sign language. Some of the glyphs also bear a similarity to symbols used by the Chinese in their system of writing, possibly indicating a common origin. This similarity between Delaware and Chinese symbols is noteworthy because Chinese accounts of the great Flood at the time of Noah are among the most striking found in Asia. One Chinese tradition preserves the name of the man who, with his family, survived the flood, as "Nu-Wah" a name very similar to "Noah." The Wallum Olum preserves that name as "Nana" or "Nanabush." Other Chinese folklore tells of the migration of the Chinese people to their present land from the area of the tower of Babel.

 

The earliest records of Chinese religious beliefs speak of "Shang Ti," a name meaning "Lord of Heaven," as the one and only God of the Chinese people. Although the rise of Confucianism, Taoism and later Buddhism resulted in Shang Ti being largely forgotten as the only God of the Chinese people, an annual sacrifice to Shang Ti continued to be offered up at the temple of Heaven in Peking until the Chinese revolution of 1911. This "Temple of Heaven" contained no idol, but a tablet on its north wall was inscribed with the words "Heavenly Sovereign Shang Ti." While religious beliefs vary greatly between American Indian groups, the Delaware Indians, like the ancient Chinese, were monotheistic, believing in one supreme being who, Himself, uncreated is the creator of all other spirits as well as man. These beliefs were held by the Delaware long before their exposure to Europeans or to Christian beliefs.