Darwin and Evolution

[HydrogenBond]

As far as the evolutionary tree, what came later in time, is more evolved than the state of an earlier time. Humans are more advanced than dinosaurs since they are near the end of the time scale, Based on that tree, we compare when it occurred so we have a scale of evolution. This is where selective advantage has a problem. The shark appeared long ago and is still going strong. It has selective advantage with retro-genes. Besides being good at killing and eating, what other advanced tricks can it do?

 

As far as the environment setting the potential, we can do an experiment. We can take two genetically similar things, i.e., clones, put one in the desert and one in a nice lush forest. We can help the experiment along until both are stabilized in their environments. Which environmental potential is more conducive to the fastest evolution from there? The genetic mutations should start very similar, but they will soon shift in favor of the lush.

 

One of the initial arguments was about evolution and complexity. The most complex aspect of the highest life form on earth, is the human brain. That aspect is what defines the latest stages of evolution and it has continued to increase in complexity. This can be inferred by the output the brain, with this output getting more complex as the brain evolves. The ape is assumed to be close to humans not because of fur but because of the brain. The arguments against complexity get superficial. It sort of compares the fancy looking 1968 Mustang to the boxy looking car of 2008. The body styling of the Mustang may look more complex, but look under the hood.

 

If you look at the transition from single to multicellular, it is logical that the original prototypes may have been nothing but a bunch of cells from the same batch, with simple environmental potentials setting a gradient. The ones at the top maybe saw the sun and the ones on the bottom dark. Both could adapted with the DNA changing only its active configuration. This is an easy experiment to run. Anyone who has grown plants knows if one does not optimize the conditions, one can get all shades in the middle. We change the lighting, and the mineral content in the soil, using the same DNA, and we can get large plants or mutant looking ones, all with the same DNA. To make sure we have the same DNA, do the experiment with cuttings.

[Eclogite]

As far as the evolutionary tree, what came later in time, is more evolved than the state of an earlier time.

I remain very uncomfortable with your use of terminology. It creates ambiguities.

More evolved implies that the later forms are better than the former. In the context of evolution better has little meaning.

Please confirm that you are not intending that meaning, but rather you are saying - and this is how I wish you had phrased it - As far as the evolutionary tree, what came later in time, has evolved from the state of an earlier time.

Humans are more advanced than dinosaurs since they are near the end of the time scale,

Again, if you mean that humans came later than dinosaurs I have no problem, but I sense that is not what you mean. Please clarify.

This is where selective advantage has a problem. The shark appeared long ago and is still going strong. It has selective advantage with retro-genes. Besides being good at killing and eating, what other advanced tricks can it do?

1) What's the problem? I don't see one.

2) What is a retro-gene? I know what a retro-virus is, but a retro-gene?

3) Why should it need to do 'advanced' tricks. 'Advanced' tricks, that is tricks that evolved later, are not necessarily better tricks, they are merely different tricks.

As far as the environment setting the potential, we can do an experiment. We can take two genetically similar things, i.e., clones, put one in the desert and one in a nice lush forest. We can help the experiment along until both are stabilized in their environments. Which environmental potential is more conducive to the fastest evolution from there? The genetic mutations should start very similar, but they will soon shift in favor of the lush.

The experiment has been done. It's called life. The more extreme the environemental change, the greater the rate of evolution.

[Michaelangelica]

The experiment has been done. It's called life. The more extreme the environemental change, the greater the rate of evolution.

and extinction.

[Kayra]

Thanks Freeztar, that article was EXACTLY what I was looking for :)

 

Michaelangelica: Yep, extinction is an absolutely critical aspect of evolution.

[Thunderbird]

CragD, I will find the source on the rice and human DNA when I get back to work tomorrow.

 

Any guesses on why some plants have more genes than animals ?

 

Sorry I have lost the source on that info.:)

 

The more to the point question should have been; Why does a plant contain so many genes compared with humans, when there physical make up is so much less complex.

 

There are other answers to the question, but I believe they all reside inside this one; Plants cannot see, move or think. Plant genes code for a chemical manipulation of the life that can. Producing fruit, pollen, etc.

 

This manipulation can be very sophisticated. The lima bean for instance, when it senses that it is being fed opon by aphids, releases a chemical pheromone into the air. This particular molecule is also produced by a female beetle therefore attracts male beetles from miles around. The beetle arrives expecting to find an ovulating female, but instead finds its favorite food, aphids.

One major defense mechanism for plants is to produce poisons to keep animals from eating them. This tactic although crude and effective is not the best, for a few reasons, it is not always effective in some animals, they develop a tolerance, and the plant may find its self in chem. arms race, which takes more and more energy, also they may be repelling an animal that could be an asset to spread seeds or pollen. Some plants have become more sophisticated and diplomatic in there manipulation. Cannabis for instance is the wizard of the plant kingdom. It produces a cannabinoid, a set of molecules specifically produced within all mammals. The end result is a kinder gentler, but more sophisticated manipulation. Lets say a prehistoric Himalayan goat after a day of munching in a cannabis patch, way up in the mountains, returns to his goat liar to sleep it off. The next day the goat has retained the pleasant memory of dinner the day before but forgets where the hell the patch was.

This ability to create a fog of forgetfulness around it regulates its consumption, dispersal of seeds, ratio more efficiently, and just as in other beneficial plants it is has reaped the benefits of domestication.

This is to all the pot heads out there. Next time you wake up after a night of indulging, and you cant seem to remember where you put your stash. Just remember your weed is actuality hiding from you. ;)

 

So the major reason these plants have so many genes is because they are utilizing the abilities of other life though sophisticated chemical relationships.

[freeztar]

That's quite a conjecture there TB...

[Pyrotex]

The reaction to such words is based on prior semantic confusions and a desire to make sure we are on the same page. Since it seems you are not implying "better", then I have no problem with your use of the word "advanced".

Right. It would seem that nearly all uses of "advanced" in the articles quoted by ThB, could be replaced with the words "more recent". In other words, advanced in time.

 

DNA and Evolution (pardon my anthropogisms) have no way of "knowing about" or "measuring" advancement or complexity.

[Thunderbird]

Right. It would seem that nearly all uses of "advanced" in the articles quoted by ThB, could be replaced with the words "more recent". In other words, advanced in time.

 

DNA and Evolution (pardon my anthropogisms) have no way of "knowing about" or "measuring" advancement or complexity.

 

I do not see how this above post has anything to do with what I have posted.

 

Implications that DNA can measure complexity?: confused:

Advanced and advanced in time do not mean the same thing.

The word advanced is used in evolutionary biology. :)

 

Do you not believe in evolution ? I mean in all evolutionary history there has been no increase in complexity ?, no morphological advancements what’s so ever. Give me a break.

[Thunderbird]

That's quite a conjecture there TB...

 

Some of it is, which part of the post do you think is conjecture.

[Michaelangelica]

Some of it is, which part of the post do you think is conjecture.

I think it is a delightful conjecture (LOL) that your pot-stash hides from you. :confused: :)

 

The question remains. Why are there THC receptors (and opioid receptors) in the human brain and how did the plant know this? and what is the plant up too, evolutionary speaking? Why only two, or so, plant varieties do this?

You would think, if it is a good survival strategy, many more plants would do it? Certainly mankind now ensures the survival of these highly valued plants.

 

Chilli (Capsicum spp.)is also an interesting plant. So I develop four very complex capsaiacin style chemicals that burn the mouth of most mammals. The birds I don't burn so they can disburse my seed. Nature, not being out to get you, makes this burning sensation real but harmless. So for the last 1,000 years mankind has treasured these plants and developed hundreds of hybrids. Along the way someone discovered that capsaiacins also stop human pain. This is apart from Capsicum spp.) being packed with Vitamin C, which as a human I can't produce myself, but need to survive.

(Vitamin C is, I think, a chelating chemical and may play some role in plants extracting minerals such as iron from the soil.)

 

I wish you could find the article on the greater number of genes in plants vis-a-vis animals. I find it non-intuitive because you think that man is more complex so should have more genes.

Do we have less genes because we actually are a symbiotic bag of water and community of bacteria and fungi? Thus relying on our fellow travelling companions for some functions of life?

 

Certainly the chemical factories of plants are extremely complex. You wonder "How did they think of (evolve) that?"

 

One wildlife documentary I saw mentioned the "plant communication" thing among an African savannah tree. When a giraffe grazes on a particular variety of tree it sends out chemical messengers to other trees who in turn produce a bitter tasting chemical that floods though the nearby plants; thus stopping the giraffes feasting on nearby trees.

[Thunderbird]

I think it is delightful conjecture (LOL) that your pot-stash hides from you. :confused: :)

 

The question remains. Why are there THC receptors (and opioid receptors) in the human brain and how did the plant know this? .

 

 

The plant did not know, its just a result of trial and error of coevolution.

 

As far as why are brains are concerned, canabinoids are important in assisting the memory process. It acts as a memory wash to delete unimportant information, A major function of memory is to forget.

[CraigD]

The plant did not know, its just a result of trial and error of coevolution.

 

As far as why are brains are concerned, canabinoids are important in assisting the memory process. It acts as a memory wash to delete unimportant information, A major function of memory is to forget.

Please support these claims with links and references.

[Michaelangelica]

The plant did not know,

Are you sure?

 

As far as why are brains are concerned, canabinoids are important in assisting the memory process. It acts as a memory wash to delete unimportant information, A major function of memory is to forget.

recent work on deep brain stimulation shows we don't forget as much as you think.

Deep brain stimulation opens memory floodgates:

Mind Hacks: Deep brain stimulation opens memory floodgates

Deep stimulation 'boosts memory'

BBC NEWS | Health | Deep stimulation 'boosts memory'

It appears that these, evolutionary older parts of the brain, have a role in storing memories previously unknown.

The effects of TCH receptors have to be more complex than a 'brain wash" surely?

[REASON]

It acts as a memory wash to delete unimportant information, A major function of memory is to forget.

 

So, the more we forget, the better our memory is? :)

[Thunderbird]

Are you sure?

 

 

recent work on deep brain stimulation shows we don't forget as much as you think.

Deep brain stimulation opens memory floodgates:

Mind Hacks: Deep brain stimulation opens memory floodgates

Deep stimulation 'boosts memory'

BBC NEWS | Health | Deep stimulation 'boosts memory'

It appears that these, evolutionary older parts of the brain, have a role in storing memories previously unknown.

The effects of TCH receptors have to be more complex than a 'brain wash" surely?

 

Well, memory sculptor may be a more appropriate term. It allows us to perceive in a selective way..

[Thunderbird]

So, the more we forget, the better our memory is? :)

In a way yes, It removes excess information so the system does not crash. Like any memory system it needs to be kept cleared or excess and unnecessary info. Any of this sound familiar. :confused:

[Thunderbird]

 

 

1) If complexity is so important how do you account for the fact that most species and most biomass is composed of prokaryotes?

t.

 

In this context the Biomass, it acts as a substrata or substrate for the emergence of multi-cellular life.

 

Complexity has to do with the relationships between parts.

An increase of parts in the system, the increase in complexity.