U.S. Immigration Bill

[CraigD]

How is someone who is working here illegally going to pay $4000 dollars to get right? A loan from the bank? A front on their paycheck from the very employer who shouldnt have hired them in the first place?

I’ve only discussed financial resources with one illegal alien. He, I suspect, would either write a check, or use a debit or credit card, just as you or I likely would. He owns a 2-bedroom condominium townhouse worth about US $250,000, purchased several years ago with a mortgage loan of about $150,000. He works as a construction contractor, and often pays suppliers and tradespeople (the ones who are not also illegals – them, he nearly always pays in cash) from his single business/personal checking account.

 

He’s a nice guy, a mediocre carpenter and mason, and a good businessman. I know him because he dated a friend of mine for about a year. He did some minor concrete work for me a couple of years ago, giving me a good price, though not much better of worse than I could have gotten from some US citizen I know who do such work.

 

Were he arrested and deported, the state could not legally seize his property or money in his bank account, unless he were accused of certain crimes, such as terrorism or drug dealing. Foreign nationals may legally own property in the US, and have bank accounts with US banks.

 

Though many illegal aliens are very poor, it is a mistake and a misconception to assume that all of them are.

[Cedars]

 

Were he arrested and deported, the state could not legally seize his property or money in his bank account, unless he were accused of certain crimes, such as terrorism or drug dealing. Foreign nationals may legally own property in the US, and have bank accounts with US banks.

 

Though many illegal aliens are very poor, it is a mistake and a misconception to assume that all of them are.

 

Without knowing all the details, but knowing this, I think you may be mistaken:

Center for Immigration Studies

 

I dont assume ALL illegals will not have a checking account with 4k in is. I do assume most of them will not, but that is based on the assumption they are "working jobs americans dont want" at or for less than minimum wage.

[DougF]

In some cases – presumably a small fraction of all illegal entries in to the US, though precise estimates of the incidence of such things are difficult to make – Mexicans and other foreign nationals are smuggled into the US with the promise of high wages, then confined and forced under threat of death to themselves or their families back home to work for nothing. I’m optimistic that, except when compromised by internal corruption, US law enforcement and social welfare agencies are aware of such abuses, and try hard to stop the worst of them.

 

 

In the states (US) we cal these "Sweatshops" Sweatshop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and we Don't like them and try to shut them down ASAP (all over the world). :cool: :cup: it's been in the states (1908-1912) you might even see your grandma or gradpa in these pics. The History Place - Child Labor in America

 

 

Secrets, Lies, And Sweatshops

 

Secrets, Lies, And Sweatshops

American importers have long answered criticism of conditions at their Chinese suppliers with labor rules and inspections. But many factories have just gotten better at concealing abuses

Tang Yinghong was caught in an impossible squeeze. For years, his employer, Ningbo Beifa Group, had prospered as a top supplier of pens, mechanical pencils, and highlighters to Wal-Mart Stores (WMT ) and other major retailers.

 

 

Stop Sweatshops

 

More and more, smart consumers are thinking about the people who make the products we buy and the conditions they work in. From the clothing we wear to the toys our children play with, store shelves are stocked with goods made in sweatshops where workers labor in unsafe conditions and are paid wages so low they must struggle to feed and shelter their families. The aisles we shop are lined with products made in factories that exploit child labor and fire and harass workers when they try to improve their lives by forming unions.

 

 

 

Co-op America's Ending Sweatshops Program: Economic action to end sweatshop and forced child labor

Sweatshops and child labor are a growing problem, particularly in clothing and textiles. And many popular agricultural products, from coffee to bananas to cut flowers, are grown under terrible conditions.

No one wants to buy products made with sweatshop labor, but it is hard to know what to avoid, and where to find green and Fair Trade products. Co-op America provides the information you need to help stop sweatshop labor and promote fair treatment of workers everywhere.

 

 

...SweatShop Watch ...Welcome to Sweatshop Watch!

 

Sweatshop Watch serves low-wage workers nationally and globally, with a focus on eliminating sweatshop exploitation in California's garment industry. We believe that workers should earn a living wage in a safe, decent work environment, and that those responsible for the exploitation of sweatshop workers must be held accountable.

 

The bottom line _______ the citizens United States (not necessary the government) are good hearted and well go to any lengths too help any one in need. (no references needed):)

[Racoon]

I left out a huge reason why this amnesty bill was better off dead than passed..

 

Because George Bush Jr. tried so hard to pass it!! :cool:

 

Is there anything he hasn't bungled, screwed-up, or done without clandestine secrecy that doesn't benefit his wealthy elite buddies??

 

No way should a lame duck president, who has entrenched us in global war and covertly passed so many shady ammendments be allowed to pass that abortion of a bill.

 

Clearly the Senate thought it wasn't a good bill.. and it failed accordingly.

 

That doesn't solve the Illegals problems, but it will be on the front burner as soon as we get a new President.

This is an important issue. One that needs to be thought not only with a compassionate heart, but with National Security and the Economy of the average American in mind!

 

The fleecing of America,

Rac

[DougF]

Being as the article was within the pages of usliberals, I guess I have to keep in mind their idea of a positive might not be my idea of a positive. Example:

 

Pros

The overriding positive of S.1348, Comprehensive Immigration Reform, is that it provides an earned path to legal residency for the 12 to 15 million immigrants illegally present in the in U.S. before 2007.

 

12 - 15 million immigrants is not my idea of a good thing.

 

Con:

 

Guest Worker Program

 

S.1348 sets a guest worker program for low-skilled labor that creates a separate class of workers with few protections granted to other U.S. workers and little hope for permanent residency.

 

The above con will be rejected as unconstitutional by the first court it hits, in my humble opinion. The cascading effect of this will negate any of the alleged protections the legislation parades as a positive. I have no doubt that the "they wont be entitled to social services under this legislation" will be even faster to be negated. Equal protection clauses and all...

 

Thankfully the legislation failed.

 

But I did find an interesting link via this article:

 

US Illegal Immigration Explained - Profits and Poverty, Social Security and Starvation

 

I did not know that Mexico is number 4 for billionaires.

 

"Mexico's massive privatizations in 1994-95 also created a new privileged class of home-grown millionaires and billionaires. As of 2002, Mexico ranked fourth in the world in billionaires, behind the US, Japan and Germany."

 

We need to send these illegals home. Mexico needs to take better care of its own.

First off I never said I agreed this, I just posted this to broaden the scope of our conversation. :cool:

 

I missed the link you posted (thanks) what i found amazing was this.

 

"The massive US intelligence agencies overhaul passed by Congress and signed by President Bush in January 2005 required Homeland Security to hire 10,000 more Border Patrol agents, 2,000 per year starting immediately. The Border Patrol currently employs 9,500 agents who patrol 8,000 miles of border.

But Bush Administration ignored the law mandating the hiring of new agents. Said Congressman John Culberson (R-TX) to CNN's Lou Dobbs, "Unfortunately, the White House ignored the law, and only asked us for 200 more agents. That's unacceptable." Culberson was referring to the federal budget for 2006 in which President Bush provided funds for only 210 new agents, not 2,000 additional agents.

Both houses of Congress worked together twice in 2005 to bypass the White House, and hire 1,500 new Border Patrol agents......500 shy of that required by law, but far surpassing the mere 210 planned by President Bush."

 

He (President Bush) seems to make the rules as he goes. :cup: I think I need a drink..

[DougF]

I left out a huge reason why this amnesty bill was better off dead than passed..

 

Because George Bush Jr. tried so hard to pass it!! :cool:

 

Is there anything he hasn't bungled, screwed-up, or done without clandestine secrecy that doesn't benefit his wealthy elite buddies??

 

No way should a lame duck president, who has entrenched us in global war and covertly passed so many shady ammendments be allowed to pass that abortion of a bill.

 

Clearly the Senate thought it wasn't a good bill.. and it failed accordingly.

 

That doesn't solve the Illegals problems, but it will be on the front burner as soon as we get a new President.

This is an important issue. One that needs to be thought not only with a compassionate heart, but with National Security and the Economy of the average American in mind!

 

The fleecing of America,

Rac

 

 

thats right. what he said :cup:

[Zythryn]

Racoon, I think your latest is the best reason I have seen so far;)

However, what you mentioned as your solution is almost exactly what the bill proposed. Why do you describe this bill with such opposition?

[sanctus]

Rac, I'm also very surprised to hear that from you! Even that you give Bush the fault of starting a global war! Never would have expected that from you, but anyway at least for once we agree.

[CraigD]

Rac, I'm also very surprised to hear that from you! Even that you give Bush the fault of starting a global war! Never would have expected that from you, but anyway at least for once we agree.

I think we can safely say Racoon speaks for the majority of Americans and the world in disapproving of President G. W. Bush’s administration. From Bush: Job Ratings (1), sampling only people living in the US:

"Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president?"

Approve / Disapprove / Unsure

All adults 27% approve / 65% disapprove / 8% unsure

Republicans 66% / 23% / 11%

Democrats 8% / 88% / 4%

Independents 18% / 71% / 11%

We can also safely say that, based on his assumption that Racoon falls under the “Republican” classification (my guess is that Rac’s better classified as an “Independent”), sanctus was reasonable in being surprised that he didn’t approve.

 

I’m not aware of polls supporting the details of his objections:

Is there anything he hasn't [1] bungled, screwed-up, or done without [2] clandestine secrecy that doesn't [3] benefit his wealthy elite buddies??

 

No way should a lame duck president, who has [4] entrenched us in global war and covertly passed so many [5] shady ammendments be allowed to pass that abortion of a bill.

but suspect if I were to find them or take my own polls, they’d support the 5 claims I count, and likely several more.

 

Personally, I continue to believe that immigration is troubled policy area in which the Bush Administration could have been effective in presiding over reform. I’m not optimistic that Congress, even after 2008, will be able to overcome their political acrimony sufficiently to produce effective legislation, nor the Executive, lower-level regulators, courts or police effect improvements under the law as it currently exists. Polls indicate about the same approval of Congress as for the President (though without as much partisan division, and with more “unsure” responses). From Congress: Job Ratings (1):

"Do you approve or disapprove of the way Congress is handling its job?"

All adults 27% approve / 60% dissaprove / 13% unsure

Republicans 22% / 71% / 7%

Democrats 37% / 49% / 14%

Independents 19% / 64% / 17%

[Cedars]

The drawback to my (by no means original) proposals is that the cost of goods produced with sub-minimum wage labor in the US, and even lower effective wage income in other countries, would almost certainly increase, especially the cost of food.

Quite a post CraigD and I am choosing to address this one particular part. You bring up something I think alot of people believe but have not investigated further.

 

I think this is one of the most misleading pieces of propaganda put out there.

 

I worked as a migrant farm worker for a season. I picked cabbage for minimum wage (which was 2.65 at the time). There was (and may still be) a federal exemption then where I did not have ssi deducted from my check and the farmer did not have to pay it in, but my working time did count for ssi. So my wages were 2.50 an hour straight up. (keep in mind that gas had just jumped greatly to .70 cents a gallon, cigarettes were .50 a pack, and tap beers cost .25)

 

2 of us working at this job were able to live. We could pay rent, buy groceries, and still have bar money on the weekends.

 

We did not have health insurance. The permanent workers on this farm did have health ins.

 

Anyways, one day I calculated what it would take to increase my wage to $5 an hour (the average starting wage at other more desirable entry jobs at the time). I know how many bags of cabbage I filled each day. My calculations out there in the fields indicated for .03-.05 cents a head (not pound) I could have increased my wages to $5 an hour.

 

Now heads of cabbage vary in weight (hence the .03 to .05 per head) Bigger cabbage, less heads per bag. Average weight of a head of cabbage is around 3 lbs. So for 1-3 cents a pound, my wages could have been doubled. It wouldnt take any more truck drivers to haul my product. It wouldnt take any extra people along the line to process my product. For .03 - .05 cents a head my wages could have been doubled.

 

Thats what my experience on the fields under the classification of 'migrant worker' was.

 

Now here is a good document regarding these same issue. The illusion that your prices will be impacted significantly by offering a good wage to field workers.

http://jfs.ohio.gov/agriculture/Ombudsman_Report_2004.pdf

 

Cucumbers:

The most valuable cucumbers are the ones sized to fit in a jar and eventually sold as dill pickles. Workers are advised to pick the smaller cucumbers to earn more money. Workers fill 35-pound baskets that average $1.00 a basket or more, based on the size of the cucumbers. The average wage is 5.15 an hour as I understand this document. So the worker is picking 5-35 lbs baskets of cukes an hour.

 

There are losses during processing/transportation. For arguments sake, lets say 10 lbs per basket are rejected. That leaves 125 lbs of pickles which make it into jars, per hour per field worker. Thats 62.5 quarts of pickles. For less than .10 a jar, the wages of these workers can be more than doubled. If you eat one quart jar of a pickles a week in your family, the yearly increase will be $5.20.

 

For .10 a week you can eat a quart of pickles and double the field hands wages. Isnt that less than Sally Struthers pimps herself out on TV to support a kid in Africa? At least you get a jar of pickles out of the deal.

 

This is assuming the factories that produce the pickles are already hiring legal workers, paying legal wages, etc.

 

Strawberries:

 

I am not gonna mess around with the math, you can do that. But heres the basics:

A worker is paid an average of .30 a pint. Another document I read indicated that the average worker can pick 17 pints an hour. For .30 a pint you can double this workers wages. How many pints of strawberries do you eat a year? Include jars of jelly, dakaries, etc to get a grip on the yearly cost.

 

Yes I believe this attempt by politicians would end up being another way to suppress Americans and enslave them further. Drive them further from the American dream of owning their own home, farm, small business, etc. All so you can save $20 bucks a year at the grocery store while paying $2000 dollars a year in extra taxes (per household) to support the lack of wages

this particular bill would have resulted in:

 

Winston-Salem Journal | Legal immigrant workers face possibility of lower wage

 

I have no reason to believe that the 'alleged' savings to Americans in construction, service industries, manufacturing, etc are similar to the pennies per day the wages of the field laborers the reality of the alleged 'driving up costs' would turn out to be.

[Cedars]

First off I never said I agreed this, I just posted this to broaden the scope of our conversation. :doh:

 

I didnt think you posted it in support or rejection of the proposal. If my post lead you to think that I interpreted it any other way, let me say now that I thought it was posted for reference only.

[sanctus]

I think we can safely say Racoon speaks for the majority of Americans and the world in disapproving of President G. W. Bush’s administration.

But then why was he voted for a second time...he screwed up things already in the first period? What made the opinion change in your view?

[InfiniteNow]

But then why was he voted for a second time...he screwed up things already in the first period? What made the opinion change in your view?

 

One can only hope that people are just slow learners, but are finally learning. However, I myself have begun to question the effectiveness and accuracy of our electoral system itself.

 

;)

[Turtle]

But then why was he voted for a second time...he screwed up things already in the first period? What made the opinion change in your view?

 

shrub (president bush) actually lost the majority popular vote, but because of the united states electoral college system he won the election.

 

on many important issues, us citizens remain a 50/50 split. the price of freedom is constant vigilance. (tom jefferson) ;)

[Racoon]

Most of Illegals are from Mexico and Central America.., right?

 

Well, they have abundant recources. Oil, agriculture, minerals, factories built both before and after NAFTA.

Plus they have rich culture and tradition, from the Aztecs and several ancient empires..

 

Why is the United States responsible for their immigrants well-being and employment ? ;)

Why should the average American shoulder the burden for their care, education, employment, and incarceration?

 

Shouldn't the politics and fiscal responsibilty of Mexico be analyized instead!?

Shouln't the burden be on 'their' end!??

 

What drives them away? Why doesn't Mexico do more for their own people?

Why do they feel compelled to break American Immigration laws??

[CraigD]

But then why was he [G. W. Bush] voted for a second time...he screwed up things already in the first period? What made the opinion change in your view?

I think – and think poll data supports – that Bush won the 2004 election mostly on the strength of the argument that a change of administration – any change – would render the country at least temporarily more vulnerable to terrorism. 9/11/2001 was still fresh in the collective national memory, and heavily emphasized by the Bush campaign.

 

The other significant factor was – this my opinion only, not, I think, supportable by analyzing poll data – John Kerry’s decision to avoid “going negative” by attacking Bush on many of the issues that are now contributing to his low job approval rating – his ability to establish effective post-9/11 foreign policy in both the short and long term. Despite claims that Bush’s bellicose foreign policy is effective – the proof usually offered that no act of terrorism on American soil as large as the 9/11 attacks has occurred since then – I believe the majority of Americans no longer believe these claims.

shrub (president bush) actually lost the majority popular vote, but because of the united states electoral college system he won the election.

Point of accuracy: Bush won the 2000 election while receiving 543,816 (0.5%) fewer total votes than opponent Al Gore. He won the 2004 elections with 3,012,499 (2.4%) more popular votes than John Kerry. (sources: wikipedia articles for 2000 and 2004 presidential election)

[Racoon]

And in today's news:

 

Tulsa's illegal immigration wreck - Gut_Check - MSNBC.com

 

In our first Gut Check America vote, thousands of readers around the country rated illegal immigration as the issue of most concern for them. Among them was Gary Rutledge, a Tulsa, Okla., college professor who wrote about being involved in a traffic accident with an apparent illegal immigrant. Here is our report on what we found when we traveled to Tulsa to follow up on his story:

 

 

 

TULSA, Okla. - “Our sovereignty is under direct attack,” warns a commanding voice emanating from a pool of light in the corner of an otherwise dark airplane hangar. Dan Howard, an airplane salesman by day, is in the middle of his weekly two-hour radio show titled Outraged Patriots, a nighttime broadcast devoted entirely to the topic of illegal immigration.

 

Howard, who charges that the U.S. government is failing in its duty to protect the country from a “silent invasion” by illegal immigrants, taps into a deep vein of anger and unease in this conservative south central city, where many longtime residents feel besieged by a recent wave of mostly Hispanic newcomers.

 

That rising tide of resentment is palpable in the city’s Latino community.

 

At Plaza Santa Cecilia, a mall filled with Latino shops in East Tulsa, business is down as much as 40 percent, vendors say.

 

“It’s very quiet,” said Edith, a 17-year-old shopkeeper who didn’t want to give her last name. “Everyone is staying home because of this immigration stuff.”

 

The tensions of Tulsa mirror those in many other U.S. cities that have experienced sharp increases in Hispanic immigration in recent years. But other factors are at work here as well.

 

City on the leading edge:

Tulsa is on the leading edge of local and state efforts to crack down on illegal immigration following passage by the Oklahoma Legislature of what is arguably the toughest anti-illegal immigration measure in the nation. The Tulsa City Council also embraced the get-tough approach by adopting a resolution calling on police officers to check the immigration status of “all suspected illegal aliens.”

 

Those actions have sparked a fierce political battle, spread fear among Hispanics — both legal residents and those in the country illegally — and triggered an angry public face-off between demonstrators on either side of the great divide.

 

Among the longtime residents shaken by the changes engulfing his city is Gary Rutledge, an MSNBC.com reader who said the demographic shift took his family and friends by surprise.

 

“It’s happened so quickly and our neighborhoods have changed so rapidly,” said Rutledge, a political science professor at nearby Rogers State University...

 

Like many longtime residents, Rutledge is quick to say that he is not opposed to immigration by legal means. But he says he objects to being unwillingly taken over by another culture as the result of unchecked illegal immigration.

“I’m very concerned that this last wave (of immigrants) has no interest in becoming Americanized,” he said.

 

That Catch -22 has forced local jurisdictions like Tulsa to seek their own solutions to the explosive and complex issue.

 

“Increasingly, because there’s no consistent federal law, states and cities are cobbling together immigration laws on their own,” says Sheryl Lovelady, assistant to Tulsa Mayor Kathy Taylor. In Tulsa, Lovelady said, such laws “have caused a lot of confusion, inconsistency and fear, mainly in the Hispanic community.”

 

 

Tulsa, a city built on oil some 500 miles from the Mexican border, has a population of just over 380,000, including about 40,000 Latino or Hispanic residents, according to 2005 Census estimates. The pace of Hispanic immigration has been quickening, and local newspapers and politicians believe the number is now closer to 50,000.

 

 

For Rutledge, a car accident personalized the issue. He and his wife were waiting in their pickup at a traffic light one evening when they were hit from behind by a vehicle traveling about 30 miles an hour. They were not badly hurt, only stunned.

 

More shocking, though, was what they heard from the police officer who responded to the accident: The other driver, a young Hispanic man, did not speak English, did not have a driver’s license or insurance. The officer suspected the man was an illegal immigrant, Rutledge said, but he did not check his immigration status because such inquiries weren’t allowed in misdemeanor cases.

 

Before taking the other driver to jail, Rutledge said, the officer told him he should just go home and forget about it.

 

‘There's not much to be done’

“He said, ‘We do a lot of this kind of thing and we can tell you that there's not much to be done about it,’” Rutledge recalled.

 

It’s not clear what happened to the suspect after that. Tulsa police were not able to locate an accident report on the incident.

 

But officers said that the maximum penalty the man could have faced for driving without a license, a misdemeanor, would be 30 days in jail. Driving without insurance is only a ticketable offense.

 

 

Rutledge said he was floored by the experience. Not only would his own insurance company have to absorb the cost for repairing his truck, but the other driver was soon going to be back on the streets.

 

“It was … a feeling of helplessness,” he said. “There's no recourse, there's nothing to do.”

 

Rutledge began comparing notes with friends and family and found that many had a similar story with a similar outcome. That got him thinking about the bigger picture.

 

“I think that when someone comes in this country illegally, it starts a tradition or culture,” he said. “You come in illegally; everything you do from that point on is illegal. And so it's almost impossible to get a driver’s license or insurance so you just start breaking one law after another. I think it’s seductive. I think after a while ... you don't pay too much attention to rule of law that this country was established on.”