U.S. Immigration Bill

[Cedars]

Looking through, I am saddened by the views some people have for Immigrants.

 

Charlie, this is not an attack on you personally. You are doing what you are supposed to via the visa process. As far as I know, most Americans do not have an issue with persons who go thru the process as required. Onward with my response:

 

First, its not about immigrants, its about ILLEGAL immigrants. We have been there done that. Congress has issued 7 amnesties and failed the American people by not doing the promised enforcement. Maybe if they had kept their promise, the 3 out of 4 Americans who oppose this current idea wouldnt be so set against it:

Numbers USA

 

Second, they ARE bad for the economy.

 

"Since 1965, nearly 30 million legal immigrants have come here, plus millions of illegal aliens. The results have been devastating for those Americans -- black or white -- who compete for jobs with this immigrant tide. George Borjas of

Harvard has shown that immigration has cut the wages of American men without a high school degree by $1,800 a year."

 

NumbersUSA

 

"Rector calculated that a bill passed by the Senate last year would have increased the number of immigrants gaining legal status over the next 20 years by 55 million to 60 million. Most of those immigrants probably would have less than a high school education. And since low-skilled individuals, legal or illegal, cost the government much more than they pay in taxes, Uncle Sam would be out-of-pocket $70 billion a year.

 

Rector calculates that the average household of a high school dropout pays about $9,600 in taxes, including payroll, sales, excise, possibly income (often offset by the Earned Income Tax Credit), property, etc. That same household receives about $32,000 a year in government services. These include Social Security, Medicare, education, welfare, highways, police and fire protection, etc. "

 

The hidden cost of illegal workers | csmonitor.com

 

This is estimated costs of Illegal Immigrants only. This does not include the Legal Immigrant costs to Minnesota. Impact in Minnesota:

Estimated number of Illegal Immigrants in Minnesota: 80,000 to 85,000

K-12 Public Education: $118-$158 million (for FY 2004)

Public Assistance Health Care Programs: $17 million (for FY 2005) *see note

Incarceration: $13 million (for FY 2005)

Total: $148-188 million

 

*note: Undocumented immigrants cost Minnesota health care assistance

programs about $35.5 million in FY 2005. The state paid approximately

$17.3 million of the $35.5 million in costs.

 

http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/Administration/Report_The_Impact_of_Illegal_Immigration_on_Minnesota_120805035315_Illegal%20Immigration%20Brief%2026.pdf

 

We do not need cheap labor. We need jobs that pay competitive wages. That is the price of doing business. No business should be allowed to profit from breaking the law. The USA unemployment rate is not zero. Not even close to that. If it was I would be willing to consider the labor market needs. The claim of not enough workers is false. The cost to Americans via this ill-conceived idea is much greater than the benefit alleged.

 

As far as the process taking a long time, I think that is normal. I worked in government for a while and we had a special program for Foreign Born persons. A small percentage of all the people we dealt with and it was an average of 3-6 months to process their documents for entry into this program, and this was BEFORE 9/11. And they already had their green card/visa done.

 

I would expect immigration/work visas to take a long time. Your on a long list of persons wanting to enter the USA. Its the price an individual

pays with a hoped for lifetime benefit.

 

Send the illegals back across whatever border they crossed and let them do their paperwork, like you are. And prosecute employers who put the illegals to work to the fullest extent of the law at every opportunity.

 

Would you be so forgiving if your visa is denied because we have over-extended the ability of the country to absorb legals by granting amnesty to those who did not follow the legal process?

Why should (up to) 20 million illegals avoid the process and be rewarded for violating our immigration laws?

Who will the US deny legal immigration to in the next 10 years while we catch up with the influx? People like you? People escaping Darfur?

People looking for a better life not simply due to economics? People fleeing a real threat to their very existance?

[sanctus]

Altough I'm not in the US we have these issues also over here. So here is my views:

 

The main problem and I agree that it is a problem, is that they do not pay taxes. I propose that we make it optional, if desired, to be hired for less than minimum wage. This would give them that competitive edge, but they could get it legally, instead of under the table.

Although the reasoning behind is nice, I'm completely against it. I say it is nice because if they are working legally, they have also insurances, can't be exploited and in case can contact a syndacate or any other worker organisation. But I'm completely against it, because (additionally to my humanitarian reasons) it is contraproductive to employ people to work for less than the minimum wage. It is already in the name "minimum", this means that if one gets less than that minimum one doesn't manage to get to the end of the month. Does a country want to legally permit this?

Also to give a point to Racoon, who wonders if there are people then who start dealing drugs and women illegally prostituting themselves (I say illegally, because in Switzerland the women can get a permit and make it legal, hence prostitution is not generally illegal here)? Once people reach the bottom there are more and more who do things they never thought being able to do, so by making less than minimal wage jobs legal, one would indirectly but legally push people to do illegal things.

 

Racoon (altough you always seem to ignore my post...) have a look at statistics, what percentage of those illegal immigrants does other illegal things a part from being illegally in the country? It's a minority, but the majority never comes in the news, because it is not interesting for the mass (just like all the wars going on since decades in Africa are never in the news). Try to objectively look at this, it won't change the fact that they are illegally in the US, but might help you see that not all are bad.

[C1ay]

Looking through, I am saddened by the views some people have for Immigrants.

 

Yes it is sad but there is some sound concern. Immigrants are not the problem but the rate of immigration is. The population of the country is growing much faster than we can build the necessary infrastructure to support.

 

People should not be mad at the individual immigrants themselves. They really are just trying to find a better life. I would do exactly the same if I were in their shoes. People do need to realize that the problem is not the immigrants, it's the government and it's lack of action at reining in the explosive rate of growth resulting from unchecked levels of immigration, both legal and illegal.

 

Everyone should watch this video called Immigration by the Numbers http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265. It is a well made presentation that shows why we need to act to slow down the rate of immigration.

[TheFaithfulStone]

However, the many people who hire them to work are also breaking the law, and they very rarely seem to be punished for it. I think that if we wish to publish people illegally staying here, to be equitable, we need to be just as hard on the people aiding and abetting.

 

Actually, this is almost the reason I'm AGAINST the immigration bill. It changes the way the temporary worker visas work and allows them to be "bound" to a specific company. Effectively right now there is SOME price pressure on immigrant wages. If I am picking fruit for $1.00 a day, and I'm illegal, I can go to the guy who'll pay me $2.00 a day to pick fruit. If I am picking fruit on a guest worker program for $1.00 a day, and I don't like it, I can go back to my home country, because I can't quit my job without losing my visa.

 

That's SLAVERY people. (Actually, to be fair it's indentured servitude.)

 

The wages for the work visas would be depressed without bound, and the number of them would increase without bound until you had created permanent, immigrant underclass of economically exploited brown people.

 

Why, it would be just like Dubai.

 

That's some good company the land of the free is in there. Give me your tired and poor indeed.

 

That said, I'm all for giving 12 million working people a "path to citizenship" even if it does amount to amnesty.

 

Why? Because I freakin' love me some tacos.

 

The surest way to know you are on the losing side is if you are trying to change the rules of the game half-way through so you can win.

 

By 2050, Non-Hispanic whites in America should be well on their way to minority status.

 

Get used to the idea, I'd say.

 

TFS

[InfiniteNow]

First, there is a big difference between being here without the approved paperwork & beurocratic/authoritative stamps and being a drug dealing, weapon wielding, prostituting, terrorist supporting, disease spreading, grandmother beating caricature.

 

Second, immigration extends well beyond the Mexico/US border, and includes the rest of the planet as well, yet the focus is almost entirely on Mexican immigration and this limits the true scope.

 

Third, the business of the world has evolved from years past, and we need governmental policies in place between nations which allow people and currency flow to accommodate business and agriculture.

 

Fourth, paying people less than minimum wage is a further reflection of the belief that they are less than human. Let's only count them as 3/5ths of a person too while we're at it. These are humans, trying to do what's right for them and their families, and they are being used as political pawns to stir up the populace.

 

It's no wonder why Americans are viewed so negatively by so many who live on other parts of the globe.

 

I swear, we're not just a bunch of hateful idiots, those just tend to be the ones that yell the loudest and get the most air time. Please, I'm serious. There is a thoughtful, though more silent, group who disagrees and are thinking of how to do things better. (and, if you're out there, please speak up. your voice and ideas are needed).

 

 

Let's redirect this conversation back to what started it...

 

What was good about the bill that was proposed?

What was bad about the bill that was proposed?

Is something else needed entirely, and if so, what?

 

 

We must first define the problem correctly if we are to solve it.

 

 

:doh:B)

[TheFaithfulStone]

You know what I'd like to see? A straight up limited amnesty bill. (Not EVERYBODY gets a pass, but anyone who really wants one does.)

 

Make illegal immigrants file tax returns. If you've filed one for five years in a row, and you can fill it out in (broken) English - congrats. Welcome to America. Then you basically remove the whole "immigration" cap thing, and crack down on companies who pay people off the roles, or people who don't file Tax returns.

 

I thought the Webb Amendment was a fair, if imperfect, compromise.

 

TFS

[jackson33]

First; Illegal, is illegal...what the difference is applied to the punishment and in this case has meant nothing for far too long. Try driving down a road in Virginia today 30 miles over the speed limit, if you think all speeders are treated equal. $3,000 fine compared to 75.00 in Wyoming.

 

Second; We in the US have a problem, with the Mexican/US border and the apparent emotional problem of theft of country, desire to take advantage of liberal US law, which is for *persons in country* not the legality of that presence. What goes on around the world, is for those that are effected, not the residents of the USA. I might suggest you study, just how the Mexican Government approaches this very same issue, on its southern border.

 

Third; There are many ways, Business and Agriculture can obtain workers from anyplace they want and legally. The problem here is they then become responsible for that worker, which takes away the incentive. Its not for government to obtain workers in the first place, for any business in the country. If that business has taken advantage of circumstance, then the failure of that system, is not then a responsibility of Government.

 

Fourth; If living underground, breaking so many laws is all that bad, why is it so many do it and by the way the figure is much closer to 20 million current.

Its because to those families back home, they are the future tickets, in most their minds, which legal immigration for them is not possible. Of that 20 million current illegal, they are no doubt family to most all the people now living in Mexico. Count as, what ever you want in anger, but don't kid your self, they are in their mind and their world equal to any 2 citizens of the US.

 

I can't give you a solution, there may not even be one. I can tell you IMO under the way the Immigration Reform Act was written, the US of today would and could not be the same, one year after passed. Even with the underground status, the humanitarian, legal, welfare and prison systems in this country are stretched to a point, it may never recover.

 

Your two questions are not possible to answer. If the bill is faulty, then nothing good in the bill was separable, once passed. In that respect, once legal status was given, all the other requirements became mute. You can't do to legal citizens, once made legal all the things suggested. Even to become a citizen of then legal status has a simple process to follow. Being fined, going back to original country or following some direction, would not be accepted legal practice, by any US court and citizenship requirement no less than any person from any nation on this planet....

[jackson33]

You know what I'd like to see? A straight up limited amnesty bill. (Not EVERYBODY gets a pass, but anyone who really wants one does.)

 

Make illegal immigrants file tax returns. If you've filed one for five years in a row, and you can fill it out in (broken) English - congrats. Welcome to America. Then you basically remove the whole "immigration" cap thing, and crack down on companies who pay people off the roles, or people who don't file Tax returns.

 

I thought the Webb Amendment was a fair, if imperfect, compromise.

 

TFS

 

To remove the caps, from one country for legal immigration would start WW III. To remove the Cap from all the worlds Nation, would double the US population, before the President could sign it.

 

Why do you suppose the Illegal immigrant who has live W/O paying Taxes would want to then start. Then to suggest for five previous years. Even if they did, how many do you suppose would owe anything. Now if this retroactive nonsense works for government I assume it should work for the immigrant which would be entitled to earned income credits and no telling what all which in that five years was not legal to obtain...

[Cedars]

First, there is a big difference between being here without the approved paperwork & beurocratic/authoritative stamps and being a drug dealing, weapon wielding, prostituting, terrorist supporting, disease spreading, grandmother beating caricature.

From my Effects on Minnesota link:

"On the federal level, according to a study by the Center for Immigration Studies, the costs imposed by illegal immigrants on the federal prison and court system are significant, totaling $1.6 billion in 2002. Although persons in illegal households account for about 3.6% of the nation’s total population, they account for almost 20% of those in federal prison and others processed by the federal courts. The $1.6 billion cost does not include federal State Criminal Alien Assistance Program (SCAAP) payments to the states."

 

And from the same link:

 

"U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement deported about 3,300 aliens in FY 2004 from the St. Paul area of operations. Of those, 1,571 were criminal aliens. The St. Paul area includes the states of Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, North Dakota and South Dakota."

 

Of those incarcerated, 85% is for non-immigration related crimes.

 

I think a significant number of illegal aliens are criminals (beyond their lack of documentation) and to call it as you see it is just relaying the facts. No white sheet needed.

 

Second, immigration extends well beyond the Mexico/US border, and includes the rest of the planet as well, yet the focus is almost entirely on Mexican immigration and this limits the true scope.

Thats right. Everytime you reward an illegal you reduce the reward for those here legally. Look to my quotes. Fact is immigration has directly contributed to LOSS of earning power for the poorest among citizens. That mean increasing the tax burden on everyone else.

Third, the business of the world has evolved from years past, and we need governmental policies in place between nations which allow people and currency flow to accommodate business and agriculture.

No. We need to gainfully employ the people who spend their money within the borders supporting their families. That is what is a positive impact on our economy, reduces tax burden, and benefits the MAJORITY of this countries population. What exactly are the positives about creating MORE poor people in the USA? What exactly are the positives about increasing the tax burden by 10-30-70 Billion?

 

Fourth, paying people less than minimum wage is a further reflection of the belief that they are less than human. Let's only count them as 3/5ths of a person too while we're at it. These are humans, trying to do what's right for them and their families, and they are being used as political pawns to stir up the populace.

Yes, the government needs to do its job and raid MORE places hiring illegals and enforce the existing laws against employers putting these criminals to work. And they should use any confiscated monies from these criminal businesses to buy more buses and employ more INS agents to scoop up more of the illegals.

 

Let's redirect this conversation back to what started it...

 

Fine, may I take this opportunity to post the original post and remind you of its direction.

 

I am curious as to how other US citizens on this board feel about the US Senate voting against the Immigration bill that President Bush has been fighting for?

 

Your the one who jumped on a US citizen for posting what his opinion was on the very question asked by the thread starter, and avoided posting any solutions, opinions on what was good about the bill, what was bad about the bill, etc... And tossed out allegations of racism, hinted at KKK relationship and a host of other insults.

You throw around the most inflamed terms with the most ignorant hate. Why don't you just put a white sheet on your head and burn crosses while you hang the immigrants and drag them behind pick-up trucks with a chain tied to their ankles?

 

Don't worry, Racoon. You're not the only one who feels the way you do, but I can guarentee you're not in good company.

 

Yet in that very post you cried out against Racoon states:

 

Those who are honest and working, with family, should have a chance to receive citizenship.

 

The majority of people in this country do not support the Amnesty bill. I think the majority of people in this country are pretty decent folk.

[Zythryn]

The majority of people in this country do not support the Amnesty bill. I think the majority of people in this country are pretty decent folk.

 

I think the majority of people in this country fell for the slick marketing of the politicians who wanted to see the bill die. Heck even Racoon supports the bill according to his own words:

 

The solution is to secure the Homeland by erecting physical barriers and using National Guard troops to secure them. We can't let the terrorists in..

Then we slowly disseminate who has already entered... and at 12+ million thats a daunting task.

 

Drug dealers, pedophiles, criminals , and other undesireables should be deported.

 

Those who are honest and working, with family, should have a chance to receive citizenship.

 

My understanding is this is exactly what the bill would have done.

It added lots of funds towards securing the border.

It would allow illegals a path to citizenship IF they:

-Returned to their country to apply.

-Paid a $5000 fine

-Citizenship would be granted after a background check was done and none would be granted quicker than people who had already applied legally.

-Those that didn't pass the background check would be deported.

 

Racoon, didn't this meat the qualifiers for your solution?

[Cedars]

I think the majority of people in this country fell for the slick marketing of the politicians who wanted to see the bill die.

 

What slick marketing?

[InfiniteNow]

What slick marketing?

 

Cedars, perhaps this would best be a new thread? The concept of "slick marketing" is that often any view can be supported if the questions are framed correctly. I believe, and I apologize up front if I'm mistaken, that Zythryn's point was those who suggest Americans heavily support or disagree with just about anything have fallen victim to coercion. The numbers are inherently flawed by the framing of the questions and bias in the populations sampled.

 

 

70% of Americans cannot choose between American Idol and America's Got Talent. C-Span is a canned meat to this group. 80% of Americans just do what they're told by the popular press, local AM radio, and that small group of friends with whom they share coffee, water, and/or beer.

 

 

 

<Disclaimer: The percentages above have not been verified by empirical evidence, but were offered as poetic license to suggest an underlying point. Please only stone the poster with sharp rocks, and disallow the dull ones. Tarring and feathering will suffice as well, but crucifixion is out of the question.>

[PetsTheCatfish]

The immigration problem could be solved if the government did two things. One setup a database that companies could view to see if workers had a valid social security number and were/are who they claim to be. Secondly if an employer hires illegals fine them/minor sentencing. This would destroy the demand for illegals. But the will to genuinely solve the problem is not there, all of what Bush and others have proposed is lip service.If the will were there the government would stop hiring illegals, the majority are employed by the government and by schools/universities and prosecute people who did.

[sanctus]

F

 

Second; We in the US have a problem, with the Mexican/US border and the apparent emotional problem of theft of country, desire to take advantage of liberal US law, which is for *persons in country* not the legality of that presence. What goes on around the world, is for those that are effected, not the residents of the USA. I might suggest you study, just how the Mexican Government approaches this very same issue, on its southern border.

 

You know there are local problems which result from global problems, if you want to stop this illegal immigrants from Mexico did ever ask yourself why they leave Mexico in the first place? Mainly because the wealth is not distributed fairly in the world and that is a global problem. I could motivate more, but I guess you get my argument. Just one example: imagine that Europe would get more and more immigrants, eventually there would also be more and more Europeans emigrating...maybe to US...

[Cedars]

The numbers are inherently flawed by the framing of the questions and bias in the populations sampled.

 

Prove this statement.

 

I asked Z to provide insight into a statement made. I dont feel I have been mislead by 'slick marketing' and provided links to information supporting my position.

 

Edit:

 

"While Majority Unsure About Immigration Bill, Those With Opinion Are Strongly Opposed

Little difference in level of support between Republicans and Democrats

 

Gallup's standard question asking Americans how closely they are following news events shows that only 18% are following news about the bill very closely, and another 42% are following it somewhat closely.

 

Opposition to the bill is very high -- 61% -- among those who are paying very close attention to it, while only 17% of this group favor it. The ratio of opposition to support drops among those who are following news of the bill somewhat closely, and even more so among the few Americans not paying much attention to the bill who have an opinion."

 

So it seems the less you know the more likely you would support the bill.

 

While Majority Unsure About Immigration Bill, Those With Opinion Are Strongly Opposed

[DougF]

recently I received a personal E-Mail from Mel Martinez United States Senator, in response to my concerns on this subject, you might want to read this it's not a easy decision where to draw the LINE.

This is his response.

------------------------------------------------

 

Below is a response to the recent comments I received from you:

 

 

Dear Mr. Franklin:

 

Thank you for taking the time to contact me. I appreciate hearing from you regarding comprehensive immigration reform and would like to respond to your concerns.

 

As you may know, on June 7, 2007, the Senate was unable to reach an agreement on the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act (S. 1348) and the Senate Majority Leader has set aside S. 1348, for the time being. Delaying comprehensive reform does a disservice to America. I remain committed to working together with my colleagues to produce a tough but fair and workable piece of legislation that President Bush can sign into law during this Congress.

 

To do this, we must secure the border first. The first section of S. 1348 mandates that border security and worksite-enforcement benchmarks must be met before other elements of the legislation are implemented. This legislation will direct the Department of Homeland Security to complete construction of hundreds of miles of additional double layered fencing and create 200 miles of vehicle barriers on our border with Mexico. The department will hire and train 18,000 border patrol agents. In addition, this bill provides for surveillance technologies to enhance our ability to monitor the border, such as, 70 ground –based radar and camera towers on the southern border and 4 unmanned aerial vehicles. However, physically securing the border will not solve the entire problem. Employers will be required to verify the work eligibility of all employees using an employment eligibility verification system, while all workers will be required to present stronger and more verifiable identification documents. Tough new anti-fraud measures will be implemented and stiff penalties imposed on employers who break the law.

 

After the border has been certified secure by the Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security and the employment verification system is in place, the remaining provisions of the bill will go into effect. To address the labor shortage in industries with a demonstrated need such as, the Florida Citrus and Hospitality Industries, a guest worker program will be implemented. The purpose of this program is to relieve pressure on the border and provide a lawful way to meet the needs of our economy. The proposal creates a temporary worker program to fill jobs Americans are not doing. To ensure this program is truly temporary, workers will be limited to three two-year terms, with at least a year spent outside the United States between each term. A small percentage of temporary workers will be allowed to bring immediate family members only if they have the financial ability to support them and they are covered by health insurance.

 

Additionally, this legislation does away with a relative- based immigration system or “Chain Migration” and establishes a new merit-based system to select future immigrants based on the skills and attributes they will bring to the United States. Under the merit-based system, future immigrants applying for permanent residency in the U.S. will be assigned points for skills, education, and other attributes that further our national interest including: ability to speak English; level of schooling, including added points for training in science, math, and technology; employment in a specialty or high-demand field; employer endorsement; and certain family ties to the U.S. This merit- based system will enhance and ensure American competitiveness for the future and put American immigration policies in line with other industrialized nations.

 

 

It is my firm belief that addressing border security and cracking down on unscrupulous employers while doing nothing to address those already living here illegally would amount to de facto amnesty for those 12 million. Further, it is in the United States’ national security interest to learn the identity of these individuals. Illegal immigrants who come out of the shadows will be given probationary status. Once the border security and enforcement benchmarks are met, they must pass a background check, remain employed, maintain a clean criminal record, pay an initial fine, determined by the size of their household as well as a state impact fee, and receive a counterfeit-proof biometric card to apply for a work visa or "Z visa." Some years later, these Z visa holders will be eligible to apply for limited permanent residency, but only after paying an additional $4,000 fine; completing accelerated English requirements and demonstrating knowledge of American civics; going to the back of the line while the current green card backlog clears; returning to their home country to file their application; and demonstrating merit under the merit-based system. It is important to note that a petitioner for or holder of a Z visa can be deported at any time if a disqualifying factor is identified during background checks, such factors include but are not limited to-- a criminal conviction, gang affiliation or terrorist activity.

 

With my full support, this bill declares that English is the national language of the United States and calls on the United States Government to preserve and enhance it, as well as enacting accelerated English requirements for many immigrants.

 

Please know that I will keep your concerns in mind as the Senate debates S.1348. I am aware that Congress has failed to oversee the enforcement of immigration law in the past. I believe that S. 1348 provides the Executive Branch, American employers and people aspiring to work in America or become Americans with a clear and workable policy that is efficient and fair. This is an important national security, economic, and humanitarian challenge, and I know the American people are looking to Congress for action and oversight.

 

Again, thank you for sharing your views with me. If you have any additional comments, please contact me. For more information about issues and activities important to Florida, please sign up for my weekly newsletter at .: United States Senator Mel Martinez :: Welcome :..

 

Sincerely,

 

Mel Martinez

United States Senator

 

 

**Note: PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS E-MAIL. If you would like to reply to this message, please contact me through my website at .: United States Senator Mel Martinez :: Welcome :..

[Zythryn]

cedars,

The slick marketing I mention is the labeling of the bill as 'amnesty'. The first thing that comes to my mind is 'unfair'. Upon researching, I found that it really is pretty fair & addresses the two foundational aspects of the problem.

Racoon even described the very bill he voted against when he described the solution!