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Thermal Energy Idea: Pressure=Energy


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#1 arkain101

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 07:24 PM

Recently I had some ideas running through my mind about energy systems that use pressure to do work.

The article MIT-led panel backs 'heat mining' got some gears turning on certain ideas.

Concept:

By taking a container full of water deep to the ocean floor. By introducing a heat source to the water in that container it may be possible to bring that water to its boiling point, which in turn generates pressure difference and essentially lift.

Containers such as metal space blanket material could contain the water, effectively containing no mass. Attatched to an elevator system.

As the water lifts to the surface the ocean pressure lessens and the water boils more and more easily. Possibly becoming a steam source?

The idea is to use natural thermal vents, or deep water nuclear reactors, to generate the heat source, that boils water (extremely heats water) in specialised containers that are attatched to a looped elevator cable. The boyant hot water bags, create lift and travel upwards, turning the cable, turning a generator. Once the containers reach the top of their trip (which could be still several hundreds of feet below the surface of the water) the bags are treated relative to their tempeatures and pressures.

IE; if the bags/containers (of vast vast volume) still contain boyancy, heat, pressure, by the time they reach the near surface, then by whatever means;

possible example: there is steam in the containers at the surface: collect the steam for energy, the bags empty, and in a thin shape, travel relatively friction free to the bottom of the cable (back to the heat source, upon which by battery powered mechanism they re-open and are prepareda nd waiting to be somehow introduced to large source of heated water, (or even gas) again, on their trip upwards.

However I have no idea of the effectiveness of such a system.

The plus sides are:

The size of the system is open, massive scales.

The system can not be seen.

Its rather enviromentally clean.

Oil rigs could be effective for merging into the system as to serve a different purpose.

Considerably low quanity of material at inexpensive cost and maintainence.

Long lasting design. All electrical generating parts kept out of the water.


I dunno it could be a stupid idea.

Maybe running water pipes through thermal areas would be better. Just to generate a creation of hot water that transforms into steam on its way up to the surface, and Cold water plumits downward through the intake just by natural pressure differences.

Essentially, one could drop a nuclear device that heated water. A natural pump would be created. Water would push itself into the intake to take place of the heated water that races to the surface to do work.

#2 arkain101

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 07:25 PM

Rough concept image.

lift idea...B)

Heat pump idea.

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#3 Roadam

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 12:00 PM

Provided you make those cointainers out of verl poor thermal conductors and provided you let the water extend(which it does very little with rising temperature) you could make this work. But I suppose that water in depths is quite cold and that would make system very inefficient.

You know how typical steam engine works? Lets summarize an compare to your idea: heat the water and let it extend-do work and cool in the process, then repeating that again and again. And efficiency of a steam engine is about 10%.
So, the pipes would have better efficiency, but still the energy would be drained trough them. I think that just placing a steam turbine over an underwater heat source would be the best. But still, the only advantage would be that you would have A lot of cooling water. :nahnahbooboo:

#4 Jigar111

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 08:26 AM

I would like to say Pressure is not equal to energy.
Pressure=Force per unit area and energy=capacity of doing work and work= force*distance travelled. If you consiner potential energy= mg*h where mg= force and h= height from some reference line.
Unit of energy is newton-meter and
unit of Pressure is Newton/meter2 where 2 concider as square
so Pressure is not equal to energy.
yes you can use difference of pressure to create a motion just like you can use heavy weight to lift light weight.

#5 ErlyRisa

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 03:36 AM

I have spent a good cpl of hours on this same idea...

it came out... that what you put down thier, takes the same amount of E as you get out 'letting' it back up.

---In other words... it's another 'free' energy system!...

The only E that I was able to equate as GAIN... was surface pressure... which also brought me to the conclusion that surface pressure is a force that is contained inside the cohesive bonds of a material., and not the actual pressure gained by immersing the object deeper in the 'atmosphere'.

ie. There is an inherent '0' point surface pressure on all objects - if that E can be harnessed by extracting that pressure via the co-hesive bonds of the material than that would be an intersting machiine...but I think it's already been done ...Piezo-Electricity.

in other words...to create the E in a surface pressure change, you have to LIFT the hammer again to get more E, or an OBLITERATING hit will render the material useless. (all cohesive bonds converted to piezo-electricity)

Yes, as for an atmospheric/gravity run machine you could argue that E comes from... well G... which brings me to my final conlcusion, if my kinetic calculations brought out Oero return in E, then what's gravity?

#6 silverslith

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 04:54 AM

You'd be better to drop a pipe from your rig to some underwater vulcanism. Theres water over 350c:evil: along the midocean ridges and other volcanos. Once you give it a little suck to get it started the steam bubbles formed as pressure reduces will cause the water column in the pipe to lower density and the ocean will push more into the pipe without pumping energy. Plonk a turbine on top where its all steam and presto, can you say virtually unlimited energy resource. Submersible closed cycle systems using pentane are easy peasy too, no great tech challenge there and can run fine at heat of say 40cwith luvly 2c ocean floor water for cooling.:lol:

#7 arkain101

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 03:03 PM

a prototype would be fun to mess with.

#8 Jay-qu

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 03:25 PM

Umm I dont think this would work, the whole concept of bouency is to do with density. If you boil contained water you will still have the same amount of mass per unit area.. did I miss something?

#9 silverslith

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 03:48 PM

Umm I dont think this would work, the whole concept of bouency is to do with density. If you boil contained water you will still have the same amount of mass per unit area.. did I miss something?



actually if you have a temp above 374C then there cannot be liquid water. It will be supercritical below 2200m depth (above this it will be gaseous h20) but still much lower density than the cool water column.
Even far cooler temps will still be lighter than the surrounding water as long as above 6c because water expands from 0c-4c. Basic thermal syphon.
You can see the effect of gas bubbles in a water column by pumping water out of bores by blowing air into them near the bottom. This will pump water out of 100m bores continuously (if in splutters)
It would be fun to test. super-geysers. The biggest ever recorded natural geyser was 20km from here from 1904-1910. 400m altitude when it erupted every 40 days.:eek_big:

#10 arkain101

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 06:35 PM

Right yes, the bottom of the ocean is like a big spring.

You could develope a huge vertical syphon that blows steam upwards.. If you took the water from the bottom of the ocean and instantly transported it to the surface in the air, It should have to release energy?

Anyway yes you might be able create a syphon if you can support a pressure free pathway from the deep, to the surface, and a heat source in the pathway, such as hot underwater volcanoes, or nuclear reactor, Nice and safe at the bottom of the ocean.

#11 ErlyRisa

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 11:32 PM

a simpler explanation....

place a straw in a cup --- the water doesn't start 'spurting out' the top now does it!

-Now place a very thin straw in the cup... eg syringe... capillary action 'draws' the water out over the top.

capillary action is the 'zero piont' surface pressure all materials behold and displace on each other (ad/co-hesion).

--Some really tall trees can be desicribed as 'defting gravity' ... when u do the math it doesn't make sence that the tree is able to get water up to the leaves 100m up! (of course the first guy that pionted this out has now been disproved... the capillary action still works.. doesn't matter how high you are (he forgot to account for the fact that the calcuation is to be done relative to the last place of displacement ie. use capillary action to fill a cup that is higher than the pervious cup...you can extend this motion forever...dying gravity, in effect the tree has lots of 'valves' that hold the water, not letting it go back down.)

--now if this is the case.. I ask again ..what is gravity?

is a tall tree a case for an anti gravity machine? -I think so!

(to those that actually can build a UFO -- please use it at night in open sparse populations, so that WE (the rest of us) have time to evolve to your enlightened state)

#12 Jay-qu

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 04:48 AM

capillary action is due to surface tension, only forces balancing gravity not actually negating it.

#13 ErlyRisa

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 07:54 PM

A bit of extrapolation...

Atoms exert a 'surface pressure' on thier surrounding, via 'vibrating' (heat) and the inability for dis/similar atoms/molecules from bonding.
-atoms/molecules that do bond would have 'exerted enough' surface pressure on each other to 'bond'.

BUT! -their is the co-hesive and ad-hesive force? -atomes of 'similar pattern' ... what is this 'similar pattern' between elements that make them attractive to each other?

-it seems to have something to do with 'valency'...

--if atoms are able to 'climb' a tree via the adhesion that atoms make to the fibres of the tree, while at the same time the co-hesion of the water draws more from below, 'giving rise'... where is the work coming from? -does the water get colder as it goes higher? -or does the tree?

---Higher Temperature = less capillary action right? eg. steam-does it rise in a thin pippet due to capillary act or just rises b/c of the relative temp it is to it's envirinment? -does water below 4C rise slower than that above?... what is the 'best' temp for capillary action of water in a tree? -what happens in winter?

if defying gravity can be as simple as 'finding the right pattern' --why haven't we done that? -maybe we have to wait to evolve so that we as individuals can 'discover' that pattern ourselves.

G=2G, aka G/2=G

(a UFO is nothing mare than a couple of V8's with water in the pistons -> the funny sound is 4 of them running at 5000+rpm!)