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Turtle

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Thanks for the links turtle, it makes you wonder how much religion is the result of these injurys or disease induced visions.

 

No mystery to me; all of it has come from peoples' heads. More supporting links to follow as I find them, a task getting increasingly easier as more of these studies come out. :read: Seek and you shall find, erhm.. I mean, look it up. :( :naughty:

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That didn't take long to find something new. :naughty:

 

To The Brain, God Is Just Another Guy : NPR

To The Brain, God Is Just Another Guy

...

When a person encounters a statement about God's presence, Grafman believes, "That's making an inference about God as a being of some kind, so you're making an inference about an entity and their relationship with you. That would activate the same areas in the brain as if you were making an inference about a friend's intentions."

...

Beliefs Produce Emotional Reaction

Grafman says there were some differences between religious and nonreligious people.

Those who said they believed in God had a negative emotional response to statements like, "There is no higher purpose." Nonbelievers had the same reaction to statements that assumed God exists. Grafman says the results show that, to the brain, religious belief is a lot like political belief.

...

Grafman says the new study says nothing about whether God exists. But it does suggest that religious belief uses a brain system that evolved quite recently.

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  • 2 years later...

given the latest spate of debate, i went searching today for the newest i could find on this topic and ran across this article. please ignore it in the order you receive it; no shoving. :read:

 

nerurotheology @unesco

...In conclusion, if we understand by the term theology what it has always meant, intellectus fidei (scientia fidei or fides quaerens intellectum), that science, that knowledge of the ultimate foundation of everything, that is, namely, God by the light of faith, then one can surely see the inappropriateness of the concept neurotheology.

 

What is now considered neurotheology is a reflection on the neuroscientific results, fruit of a religious or mystical experience seen from its intellectual-emotional side. Instead of neurotheology it would be more correct to use another term, such as the neurophenomonology of the religious experience.

As José Manuel Giménez-Amaya said so well in his article "God in the brain? Religious experience seen from neuroscience", published in March 2010 in the journal Scripta Theologica, University of Navarra, Theology has the role of "a correcting function required by thought." Since "science, in general, is knowledge with foundations, i.e., premises known to us," and that "the very idea of science refers to the existence of an ultimate foundation of all that is," then "this is where theology is at stake as a discipline that studies the ultimate foundation of all reality."

 

We need to open the full potential of our rationality and not reduce it to the size of our brain organ. ,,,

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  • 2 months later...

I'm not questioning neurotheology because of Pamela's (I think it was Pamela) comments about her son that had the seizures and suddenly started praying all the time!

 

I was wondering though how neurotheology explains incidents of people that have had near-death experiences or have been pronounced clinically dead and revived? Many people (though in different countries and situations) describe similar experiences and I'm especially interested the tunnel, (suicide, Marie M's son, Genevieve's Experience) as I have read this in numerous other accounts:

 

http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/marie.html

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...I was wondering though how neurotheology explains incidents of people that have had near-death experiences or have been pronounced clinically dead and revived? Many people (though in different countries and situations) describe similar experiences and I'm especially interested the tunnel, (suicide, Marie M's son, Genevieve's Experience) as I have read this in numerous other accounts:

 

http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/marie.html

 

lack of oxygen explains it. near-dead is not dead; dead is dead. just ask david carradine.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi turtle!

 

A surprisingly good thread! To my astonishment I read most of it :blink:

 

Not that the content was new to me, at the very early age when I first got into contact with religion I decided that I would accept neither gods nor devils to communicate with me through my brain since poor little sigurd would have no way to tell them apart. (I was rather quick to convert to pantheism)

 

And sometimes scientific discovery actually finds its way to Stockholm/Sweden...But I cant free myself from the suspicion that religion (and schizofrenia) is a disease!

 

Take my word for it, the damned bug will be discovered some day :angry:

 

That said I must confess that still Im religious, since I strongly believe in and hunt for Reality and Truth even though I realise Im hardwired by evolution to do so.

 

While confessing my sins I should add that I now believe in God... Not a "God" depicted by any religion or theology:

I believe in the Absolute God! So far best approximated by the Cantorian concept of Absolute Infinity. (I suppose you know what I mean)

 

Theres not much more that comes to mind for confessing...well sometimes I like to pull ppls legs without them realizing it... And perhaps I have given you the impression that i dont love mathemathics, but its really the other way around (Or it is my total refusal ever to do homework that is the cause of my weak mathemathical ability.)

 

BTW! I ran into a small problem in harmony theory related to group theory some twenty years ago that i never saw the solution to... perhaps you would? ... Numbers figure in it... Ok I understand ...Some other time perhaps... Well thank you kindly Sir!

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Hi turtle!

 

A surprisingly good thread! To my astonishment I read most of it :blink:

 

what!!??? read a whole thread before replying!!! now there's a novel concept. ;)

 

Not that the content was new to me, at the very early age when I first got into contact with religion I decided that I would accept neither gods nor devils to communicate with me through my brain since poor little sigurd would have no way to tell them apart. (I was rather quick to convert to pantheism)

 

And sometimes scientific discovery actually finds its way to Stockholm/Sweden...But I cant free myself from the suspicion that religion (and schizofrenia) is a disease!

 

Take my word for it, the damned bug will be discovered some day :angry:

 

That said I must confess that still Im religious, since I strongly believe in and hunt for Reality and Truth even though I realise Im hardwired by evolution to do so.

 

While confessing my sins I should add that I now believe in God... Not a "God" depicted by any religion or theology:

I believe in the Absolute God! So far best approximated by the Cantorian concept of Absolute Infinity. (I suppose you know what I mean)

 

Theres not much more that comes to mind for confessing...well sometimes I like to pull ppls legs without them realizing it... And perhaps I have given you the impression that i dont love mathemathics, but its really the other way around (Or it is my total refusal ever to do homework that is the cause of my weak mathemathical ability.)

 

BTW! I ran into a small problem in harmony theory related to group theory some twenty years ago that i never saw the solution to... perhaps you would? ... Numbers figure in it... Ok I understand ...Some other time perhaps... Well thank you kindly Sir!

 

well, i lost a detailed reply to the aether so this vulgar redo will have to do. i have no impression that you don't like math so no worries. from my study i find spiritual belief more of a "condition" than a disease, though no doubt it can manifest symptoms of disease. take heart that your condition appears mild and you might exterpate it by will, or an accidental blow to the head might do too. :hammer:

 

by all means start a thread in the math section and we'll all have to with it. :smart:

 

back to the topic, i have an article not yet posted and of fresh vintage. :read:

 

The God of Mind : Exploring the Implications of Neurotheological Research

 

Neuroscientists have discovered curious truths about religious experience and their potential enhancement through drugs, disease or even practice. In this article I explore the implications of the apparent malleability and non-universality of religiosity.

 

A relatively new area in neuroscience gaining momentum rapidly is neurotheology – a field which investigates the notion that within the brain are neural structures which give rise to the potential for religious experience. More studies are beginning to show not only that neural correlates exist, but that they have susceptibility to pharmacological and pathological modification and potentiation, much as the same as we have found for many of the complex emergent properties of the brain.

 

The neuroscientist VS Ramachandran has extensively investigated a curious condition known as temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE). Studies have shown that after TLE patients undergo an epileptic seizure, they uniquely describe having a profound “spiritual” experience. They claim to understand their place in the cosmos, and how everything suddenly becomes saturated with significance and meaning. Such experiences occur independently of prior beliefs held by the patient. Ramachandran has explained that the phenomenon is not evidence for “God module” as the media initially popularised. Rather that there are perhaps a variety of structures which work together to give rise to such spiritual experiences, which is the case with other specific systems of the brain. The visual system for example has many quite distinct components (colour, movement, object recognition, facial recognition) working together to produce vision, rather than a “vision module” located in a single area. TLE patients also show a reduced response to normally provocative images (such as sexual images), but a heightened response to religiously-loaded words or imagery.

...

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hmmmn this ole thread eh :P

While not wholly convinced at this latter date about the god gene so to speak, I have acquired more information on TLE through my own personal experiences. With that said, I should be curious about what has been ingested along the way to trigger these spiritual responses as well as which target groups and what time frame in which all this new testing has been done. For example, one can simply abuse dextromethorphan and have hallucinations such as out of body experiences and visions of god and also hear voices. Depending on how long the abuse has occurred, these types of things will continue to happen long after the drug abuse has stopped. It will also trigger TLE. Now you have to wonder say hundreds of years ago, what may have been ingested that could have caused a similar spiritual experience and possibly a chemical reaction neurologically or a heightened response in a neurochemical . Any thoughts?

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hmmmn this ole thread eh :P

While not wholly convinced at this latter date about the god gene so to speak, I have acquired more information on TLE through my own personal experiences. With that said, I should be curious about what has been ingested along the way to trigger these spiritual responses as well as which target groups and what time frame in which all this new testing has been done. For example, one can simply abuse dextromethorphan and have hallucinations such as out of body experiences and visions of god and also hear voices. Depending on how long the abuse has occurred, these types of things will continue to happen long after the drug abuse has stopped. It will also trigger TLE. Now you have to wonder say hundreds of years ago, what may have been ingested that could have caused a similar spiritual experience and possibly a chemical reaction neurologically or a heightened response in a neurochemical . Any thoughts?

 

Hmmm some thoughts bears to think twice about... Shouldnt we leave them toxic beasts in piece? While were at it why not publish a how to make atombombs out of sticks and stones :)

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hmmmn this ole thread eh :P

 

at last, huh? ;) i'm with ya. :)

 

While not wholly convinced at this latter date about the god gene so to speak, I have acquired more information on TLE through my own personal experiences. With that said, I should be curious about what has been ingested along the way to trigger these spiritual responses as well as which target groups and what time frame in which all this new testing has been done. For example, one can simply abuse dextromethorphan and have hallucinations such as out of body experiences and visions of god and also hear voices. Depending on how long the abuse has occurred, these types of things will continue to happen long after the drug abuse has stopped. It will also trigger TLE. Now you have to wonder say hundreds of years ago, what may have been ingested that could have caused a similar spiritual experience and possibly a chemical reaction neurologically or a heightened response in a neurochemical . Any thoughts?

 

i think the "god spot" and "god gene" are passe concepts/terms these days, as put forward in that last article i quoted & linked to. the inclination to religious/spiritual belief while more complex than put forward early is nonetheless a bona fide "condition" if i may use that word.

 

as to what substances and means the ancients had at hand beyond an individual's physiological makeup, there is the psilocybin mushroom(s) in both the old & new world -article @ wiki-, peyote cactus in north america, the ergot fungus of grain crops throughout the world, & nutmeg (believe it or not) just to name a few. more plants at Department of Plant Biology, University of Maryland-LECTURE 31 - PSYCHOACTIVE PLANTS or just google psychoactive plants and pick your poison. :esmoking:

 

as to other means i saw a piece on pbs i think (can't find a link last time i looked; good luck) about a megolithic structure at malta constructed such that a drummer sitting at the entrance to a chamber could produce a helmholtz-resonance of 7.5 hertz, the reasonance of the earth of all things and also in the theta range of brain frequencies associated with, according to this source,

Deep meditation. Deep inward thought. This is associated with life-like imagination. High state of mental concentration. A magical mind. Internal pictures / visualisation. Intuition, inner guidance. Access to unconscious material. Dreaming.
source not the best medical source but google is your friend.

 

there is also the old standby blow to the head or severe fevers as evidenced in the medical literature. (see the earlier article(s) in this thread on the gal who helped get the seventh day adventists going) :hammer:

 

there's more than one way to skin a cat fo shizzle. :angel: :cat:

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you're so funny turtle :P

I was thinking more along the lines of lets say early man eating seeds. The seeds contain a cannabinoid. That in return reacts with the neurochemical endocannabinoid or maybe its mimicked and then has an effect on the neurotransmitter release. I dunno, something like that makes sense to me; a reaction rather than something inherent.Not specifically a cannabinoid, but maybe if i dig deeper i can figure it out.:P But anyhow, you see where i am going with this i hope.

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you're so funny turtle :P

I was thinking more along the lines of lets say early man eating seeds. The seeds contain a cannabinoid. That in return reacts with the neurochemical endocannabinoid or maybe its mimicked and then has an effect on the neurotransmitter release. I dunno, something like that makes sense to me; a reaction rather than something inherent.Not specifically a cannabinoid, but maybe if i dig deeper i can figure it out.:P But anyhow, you see where i am going with this i hope.

 

glad my humour worked. :D sorry i wasn't more specific on seeds. :please: here's more on seed specifics in regard to ergot that i mentioned. in this case the active chemicals are alkaloid(s). full article contains some history of medicinal use as well as links to other sources. :turtle: :read:

 

full article: >>Ergot @ wiki

select quotes: >>

Ergot or ergot fungi refers to a group of fungi of the genus Claviceps.[1] The most prominent member of this group is Claviceps purpurea. This fungus grows on rye and related plants, and produces alkaloids that can cause ergotism in humans and other mammals who consume grains contaminated with its fruiting structure (called ergot sclerotium).[2][3]

...

The ergot sclerotium contains high concentrations (up to 2% of dry mass) of the alkaloid ergotamine, a complex molecule consisting of a tripeptide-derived cyclol-lactam ring connected via amide linkage to a lysergic acid (ergoline) moiety, and other alkaloids of the ergoline group that are biosynthesized by the fungus.[7] Ergot alkaloids have a wide range of biological activities including effects on circulation and neurotransmission.[8]

...

The neurotropic activities of the ergot alkaloids may also cause hallucinations and attendant irrational behaviour, convulsions, and even death.[7][8]

...

American author John Grigsby contends that the presence of ergot in the stomachs of some of the so called 'bog-bodies' (Iron Age human remains from peat bogs N E Europe such as Tollund Man) is indicative of use of ergot in ritual drinks in a prehistoric fertility cult akin to the Eleusinian Mysteries cult of ancient Greece. In his book Beowulf and Grendel, he argues that the Anglo-Saxon poem Beowulf is based on a memory of the quelling of this fertility cult by followers of Odin. He writes that Beowulf, which he translates as barley-wolf, suggests a connection to ergot which in German was known as the 'tooth of the wolf'.[22]

...

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