Biotheology

[Moontanman]

"If" such a thing as a god spot existed, I would expect the god spot to be in the center of the brain and not on the surface. The thalamus is a possible place since it is the most wired place of the brain. The surface stuff is to too limited in any particular place and may be more of an thalamus-cerebral loop.

 

HB, there is no doubt that a "god spot" exists and it is on or near the surface of the Temporal lobe of the brain. A fluctuating magnetic Field can stimulate the temporal lobe and cause the feeling of presence, in some individuals this will be so strong they hear see and feel the presence of God, angels, or aliens. A quick google search would show that your idea about the surface of the brain is totally wrong. The surface of the brain controls most of what we call the human mind.

[Turtle]

"If" such a thing as a god spot existed, I would expect the god spot to be in the center of the brain and not on the surface. The thalamus is a possible place since it is the most wired place of the brain. The surface stuff is to too limited in any particular place and may be more of an thalamus-cerebral loop.

 

Stop!!! Enough of the speculative crapulence here!!! Either provide some supportive material or don't post. :)

[Moontanman]

I already have see post #20

 

I've read this thread and so far it would seem no one is aware that a deeply religious experience can be triggered simply by stimulating the temporal lobes of the brain with a certain electromagnetic field. This would seem to show that religion and god both originate in the brain.

 

The God Experiments | The Rational Response Squad

 

Electromagnetic spirituality: Seeing God and becoming one with the universe using the “God Helmet” The Frame Problem

 

Erowid Mind Devices Vaults : Magnetic Brain Stimulation

[Turtle]

I already have see post #20

 

I presume you're responding to me? Well enough; if the shoe doesn't fit, don't put it on.

To be clear, I was not getting on your case Moon Man, it is H-Bond and his habit of posting psuedo-scientific speculation without reference that has me cheesed right now.

 

This is one thread that belongs in theology as laid out by the ground-rules and yet try as I might to guide it by scientific standards it's just one babble & gobbledygook speculation post after another. Keep it up and I'll continue to issue harsh criticism. :)

[HydrogenBond]

I was taking the "god spot" as meaning literal. If you look at a god concept, it is not limited to human limitations. Logically, one needs to look at the most wired aspect of the brain for the foundation of the affect. The output affect may end up on the surface, where it is easier to investigate. But the thalamus will be involved in the process, since it is the switching station that is involved in maintaining consciousness, of an effect, that to some, appears to have a consciousness of its own.

 

The analogy is the sun. We see the flares and sunspots on the surface and define the sun by these, since this is easier to see and investigate. But it is the smaller fusion core that is generating all the output that translates into the surface affects. There is some autonomy of surface effect, but without the core active, it is a moot point. The thalamus has its finger in every pie, including things the cerebral does not control.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

The thalamus is known to have multiple functions. Deduced from the design of the isothalamus, it is generally believed to act as a translator for which various "prethalamic" inputs are processed into a form readable by the cerebral cortex. The thalamus is believed to both process and relay sensory information selectively to various parts of the cerebral cortex, as one thalamic point may reach one or several regions in the cortex.

 

The thalamus also plays an important role in regulating states of sleep and wakefulness.[4] Thalamic nuclei have strong reciprocal connections with the cerebral cortex, forming thalamo-cortico-thalamic circuits that are believed to be involved with consciousness. The thalamus plays a major role in regulating arousal, the level of awareness, and activity. Damage to the thalamus can lead to permanent coma.

 

[pamela]

from wiki

Neurotheology, also known as biotheology or spiritual neuroscience, is the study of correlations of neural phenomena with subjective experiences of spirituality and hypotheses to explain these phenomena. Proponents of neurotheology claim that there is a neurological and evolutionary basis for subjective experiences traditionally categorized as spiritual or religious

.

 

Neurotheology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As noted in the above posts, "experiences" will occur when prompted by a stimulus, whether that be from a neurological disorder or electromagnetically. The evolutionary basis for this hypothesis is where I find difficulty in accepting this

from wiki

The God gene hypothesis proposes that human beings inherit a set of genes that predisposes them to believe in a higher power. The idea has been postulated by geneticist Dean Hamer, the director of the Gene Structure and Regulation Unit at the U.S. National Cancer Institute, who has written a book on the subject titled, The God Gene: How Faith is Hardwired into our Genes.

 

The God gene hypothesis is based on a combination of behavioral genetic, neurobiological and psychological studies. The major arguments behind the theory are (1) spirituality can be quantified by psychometric measurements; (2) the underlying tendency to spirituality is partially heritable; (3) part of this heritability can be attributed to the gene VMAT2.(4) this gene acts by altering monoamine levels, and (5) this confers a selective advantage. However, a number of scientists and researchers are highly critical of this theory; Carl Zimmer, writing in Scientific American, questions why "Hamer rushed into print with this book before publishing his results in a credible scientific journal."In his book, Hamer backs away from the title and main hypotheses by saying "Just because spirituality is partly genetic doesn't mean it is hardwired,"

 

God gene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Moontanman]

I was taking the "god spot" as meaning literal. If you look at a god concept, it is not limited to human limitations. Logically, one needs to look at the most wired aspect of the brain for the foundation of the affect. The output affect may end up on the surface, where it is easier to investigate. But the thalamus will be involved in the process, since it is the switching station that is involved in maintaining consciousness, of an effect, that to some, appears to have a consciousness of its own.

 

The analogy is the sun. We see the flares and sunspots on the surface and define the sun by these, since this is easier to see and investigate. But it is the smaller fusion core that is generating all the output that translates into the surface affects. There is some autonomy of surface effect, but without the core active, it is a moot point. The thalamus has its finger in every pie, including things the cerebral does not control.

 

 

 

 

The starter on my car has to work for anything else on the car to work but you wouldn't say it is the most important part or even a necessary part. The human mind resides in the outer layer of the mind, everything else is just systems to facilitate it's workings.

[Turtle]

These nonsensical analogies do nothing to forward the topic in my opinion, and unquestionably it has not furthered my personal knowledge. Whatever it is, it is not science.

 

As noted in the above posts, "experiences" will occur when prompted by a stimulus, whether that be from a neurological disorder or electromagnetically. The evolutionary basis for this hypothesis is where I find difficulty in accepting this.

 

Pam, that particular set of circumstances is a very narrow band of "religious/spiritual" experience and so not a basis for such a broad generalization that evolution plays no role in religious experience. The fact is, evolution is the solo role in us having our brains at all and therefore any phenomena of the brain is an evolutionary phenomena.

 

Regardless of the speculation ongoing as to the details of the hows and whys of it, the fact remains that real-time brain imaging, i.e. scientific studies, of people under controlled circumstances does show distinct differences in brain activity of those describing themselves as "spiritutal" or "believing in God(s)" and those who describe themselves otherwise. Moreover, disease and/or injury can change this characteristic behavior in a person in short order, ergo the brain is "hard-wired" for religious experience. We know the same is true for language via Noam Chomsky's work and all that has substantiated it scientifically since. The particulars of the human god complex will be worked out with scientific study in labs, not idle speculation and psuedo-scientific babblanalogies out on the web.

 

Now those most resistant to this idea might want to get themselves enrolled in a proper study and find out where the rubber meets the room. :)

[pamela]

posted by Turtle

Pam, that particular set of circumstances is a very narrow band of "religious/spiritual" experience and so not a basis for such a broad generalization that evolution plays no role in religious experience. The fact is, evolution is the solo role in us having our brains at all and therefore any phenomena of the brain is an evolutionary phenomena

.

I am not suggesting that evolution does not play a role in brain response.

Regardless of the speculation ongoing as to the details of the hows and whys of it, the fact remains that real-time brain imaging, i.e. scientific studies, of people under controlled circumstances does show distinct differences in brain activity of those describing themselves as "spiritutal" or "believing in God(s)" and those who describe themselves otherwise. Moreover, disease and/or injury can change this characteristic behavior in a person in short order, ergo the brain is "hard-wired" for religious experience. We know the same is true for language via Noam Chomsky's work and all that has substantiated it scientifically since. The particulars of the human god complex will be worked out with scientific study in labs, not idle speculation and psuedo-scientific babblanalogies out on the web

I am not doubting the differences, i am looking for the why. I believe that if you feed the memory religious information, then you are likely to have a religious response under these tests. If for example, you feed it fear, how much more likely will you have a more extreme response in the imaging. If the concept of religion is a peaceful item to the believer, then certainly the imaging would show differently than someone who did not equate peace with religion. I believe these are founded in memory and emotion and not in a predetermined biological package

Now those most resistant to this idea might want to get themselves enrolled in a proper study and find out where the rubber meets the room.

as more data is found and tested, the more i am likely to see and understand. I am not opposed to the idea, i just need more information.

[pamela]

Neurotheology hypothesizes that the basis of spiritual experiences arises in neurological physiology, for example an increase of N, N-Dimethyltryptamine levels in the pineal gland, and attempts to explain these neurological basis for those experiences, such as:

 

The perception that time, fear or self-consciousness have dissolved

Spiritual awe

Oneness with the universe

Ecstatic trance

Sudden enlightenment

Altered states of consciousness

These experiences are seen as the basis for many religious beliefs and behaviors.

Information such as this, if it can be proven, would certainly gain the comprehension that i need:)

 

Neurotheology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Moontanman]

These nonsensical analogies do nothing to forward the topic in my opinion, and unquestionably it has not furthered my personal knowledge. Whatever it is, it is not science.

 

 

 

Pam, that particular set of circumstances is a very narrow band of "religious/spiritual" experience and so not a basis for such a broad generalization that evolution plays no role in religious experience. The fact is, evolution is the solo role in us having our brains at all and therefore any phenomena of the brain is an evolutionary phenomena.

 

Regardless of the speculation ongoing as to the details of the hows and whys of it, the fact remains that real-time brain imaging, i.e. scientific studies, of people under controlled circumstances does show distinct differences in brain activity of those describing themselves as "spiritutal" or "believing in God(s)" and those who describe themselves otherwise. Moreover, disease and/or injury can change this characteristic behavior in a person in short order, ergo the brain is "hard-wired" for religious experience. We know the same is true for language via Noam Chomsky's work and all that has substantiated it scientifically since. The particulars of the human god complex will be worked out with scientific study in labs, not idle speculation and psuedo-scientific babblanalogies out on the web.

 

Now those most resistant to this idea might want to get themselves enrolled in a proper study and find out where the rubber meets the room. :Alien:

 

Is it possible that the brain is not "hard wired" for either religion or atheism but that certain circumstances, developmental, injury, outside stimulus, or some disease could cause fluctuations in the brain that are labeled by the brain as religious or alien or in some other way that is already familiar to the brain? Since many times these experiences are not religious but can be as i mentioned aliens is there some argument that the brain is hard wired to see aliens? Maybe the brain just labels experiences it cannot comprehend in ways it is already familiar with?

[CraigD]

As the better-written, more coherent previous links and comments in this thread have explained, “neurotheology”, also (according to this wikipedia link) known as “biotheology” or “spiritual neuroscience”, is the hypothesis that a specific mental state described as a “mystical”, “spiritual”, or “religious” experience, is due to a specific, identifiable, and artificially inducible, kind of neurological activity.

 

The scientific evidence that there’s something to this hypothesis is pretty sound. However, early dramatic claims, expecially Michael Persinger’s “God helmet” experiments (Persinger actually called the head-mounted device used in these experiments a “Koren helmet”, after fellow Laurentian University neuroscientist Stanley Koren), which were initially and continue to be repeated and exaggerated by popular science journalists, science fiction writers, have proven scientifically weak. In short, when reproduced by other researchers with better experimental methodology, the claimed effects don’t occur. Specifically, when the experiments are properly blinded – neither the experimenter nor the experimental subjects are told if the helmet is on or off, or what kind of experience to expect, the claimed effects don’t occur. When Persinger performed the experiments, his subjects expected and were enthusiastic to have the predicted mystical experience. In light of the failure of Persinger’s experiments to be successfully reproduced with proper controls, it appears that the effects reported by his subjects were due to suggestion and expectations, not an actual neurological effect.

 

The conduct of Persinger and some of his supporter has also discredited his research, because of their reluctance to accept the failure of their experiments to be reproduces, and their promotion of wildly speculative ideas, such as his ”tectonic strain theory”, which attributes UFO sightings to earthquake-related geophysical effects.

 

This is not to say that, because Persinger’s experiments are invalid, the fundamental hypotheses of he intended to support, such as that mystical experiences are distinct neurological events, and other hypotheses such as that the predisposition for social behaviors such as organized religion are due to underlying neuroanatomical structures and neurophysiological processes, and that these events, structures, and processes are common to nearly all humans, are incorrect. Rather, as with much of neuroscience, valid theories and supporting experiments are proving more complicated and difficult than initially hoped. As neuroscience continues to advance, and profound and fundamental obstacles are overcome, I believe we will eventually understand the underlying neurology of such phenomena as religious ecstasy and faith, and many other ones, and be able to, should people wish to do so, artificially and beneficially induce or prevent such states. It’s clear, I think, that we’ve not reached that point yet, and that claims that we have are wishful to the extent of being pseudoscientific.

[HydrogenBond]

There is a simple set of experiments than might point in the direction of the god gene, if you wish to call it that. It involves young children, when they are still natural and not yet structured to culture. The experiment has to do with comparing their natural attraction to fairy tale symbolism, versus something more linear, objective or logical.

 

Once they acquire language skills, even just the basics, one can tell them a fairy tale and they don't get tired of hearing it. Next, we compare their attention span to more structured and objective learning. Story time is always more fun because it comes so easily to almost all children. One might have to push the other stuff and use various tricks to keep attention. What comes natural may have a stronger genetic foundation.

 

This does not prove the god gene, but it would show a natural part of the brain set up genetically, that craves story time. The name content of the characters of story time is not important, since the attractive effect is not linear. One can change all the names and even the story line, and it won't matter too much. Other types of linear learning, is harder to do, for most children, because it may not be fully genetic. Many children will get bored because it takes more effort.

 

Going from that to the god gene would be the next step. The next set of experiments would use various genre of mythology, both primitive and modern, including religion symbolism, to see what is the most compelling as a function of development or age. Is there a natural craving and at what age?

[Turtle]

The previous post by H-Bond is, as usual, not supported by any sources. :) In my haste, I accidently hit 'approve' when contributing to his rep. My bad. :doh: Nonetheless, this is the kind of drivel that makes me think this Theology Forum we made was a bad idea. :)

 

As long as we have it however, might as well get some use of it of the kind that we intended.

 

BBC - Science & Nature - Horizon - God on the Brain

...NARRATOR: Rudi and Gwen's hallucinations may seem very odd, but there is a growing belief amongst researchers that their condition could help give answers to one of the deepest philosophical questions of all. Where does religious belief come from? Divine revelation is crucial to all the great faiths. Visions for mystics and seers have produced creeds that people have lived and died for. Believers are convinced that such revelations come from god; atheists that they are no more than the product of superstition and social conditioning. What neither side has ever thought is that religion might actually be as fundamentally a part of us as the desire to eat, sleep or have sex. But now that view may be changing, and temporal lobe epilepsy is turning out to be key. The condition is being used to help explain the start of at least one of the world's most thriving religious groups - the Seventh Day Adventist Movement which currently has over 12 million members. Locked within the archives of the church lies the story of how it all began, with the revelations of a young woman called Ellen White.

...

NARRATOR: The epileptic patients were given three different groups of words: sexually loaded words, neutral words and religious words. Professor Ramachandran found that the neutral words, as expected, produced little emotional effect, but was astonished by the response he got when he started showing patients sexual and religious words.

 

RAMACHANDRAN: What we found to our amazement was, every time they looked at religious words like 'god' they get a huge big galvanic skin response. Conversely, if you showed them a sexually loaded word, these patients showed a slightly lower response. In other words, their response was higher to words about god and religion and lower to sexual words, whereas in most normal people it's the other way around.

 

NARRATOR: This was the very first piece of clinical evidence revealing that the body's physical response to religious imagery was definitely linked to activity in the temporal lobes of the brain. ...

[Moontanman]

Turtle, do you have a link to the Seventh Day Adventist Movement and it's start? I'd like to read how it is connected to temporal lobe epilepsy?

[Turtle]

Turtle, do you have a link to the Seventh Day Adventist Movement and it's start? I'd like to read how it is connected to temporal lobe epilepsy?

 

You know I do. :naughty: We'll start with the Wicked Pedia and follow the turns of the worms from there. >> History of the Seventh-day Adventist Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Addendum: http://www.ellenwhite.org/canright/can9.htm

...All the accounts of her visions which we have were written by her devout believers. We know that they would give only the most favorable aspect of them, omitting anything unfavorable. But, taking their own statements, her symptoms are exactly the same as those described by the physicians as above, where similar visions were merely the results of disease of the nervous system, generally brought on by a blow to the head, as in the case of Mrs. White. Her failures in so many ways, as noted in other chapters of this book, leave no reasonable doubt that the woman was simply deceived herself as to the real nature and cause of her visions. ...

[Moontanman]

Thanks for the links turtle, it makes you wonder how much religion is the result of these injurys or disease induced visions.