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Beautiful !


eric l

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This seems to be the first tread in a new forum, an I think that "beautiful" is really a good word to start with.

How does it come that in English, one uses an adjective that is derived from a substantive (beauty) that was derived from a root adjective with the same meaning (French "beau").

Has there ever been in English an adjective "beau or "bel" ? Maybe some expert on Chaucer could enlighten me on that.

There is also something "funny" with the Dutch translation of beatiful : the Dutch word schoon (compare to "schön" in German) still has the same meaning (beautiful) in Belgium, but in the Netherlands, it has grown to mean clean; however, the derived substantive schoonheid has kept the old meaning both in Belgium and the Netherlands. On the other hand the derived verb schoonmaken means "to clean" on both sides of the border.

I know there are similar differences in English usage between the UK and the US, but then there is an ocean between the two of them, while between the Netherlands and Belgium there is only a more or less artificial border, and indeed almost 5 centuries of separation.

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This forum is indeed here to discuss linguistics and this thread is a prime example of language evolution. There are no immediate plans for an "English forum" (as compared to our German, Spanish and French forums) because 1. everything else here at Hypography constitutes English training for everyone, and 2. there was a need for a forum for discussion of languages - English is specifically mentioned in the forum name because a lot of people have a connection with the learning of English as a subject, whether as a native tongue or a secondary language.

 

As for the word "beautiful" I'd suggest that it is related to the French word stem "beau" (just a guess, really).

 

But read this interesting comment:

 

Why BEAUTIFUL is not a real word

 

:shrug:

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I know there are similar differences in English usage between the UK and the US, but then there is an ocean between the two of them, while between the Netherlands and Belgium there is only a more or less artificial border, and indeed almost 5 centuries of separation.

 

You will find similar difference between Norwegian and Swedish, as well. Swedish tends to borrow from German, whereas Norwegian will use English origins.

 

This is not true in all cases, obviously, since both are Germanic languages. Thus the word "beautiful" in Swedish could be, for example, "skön" or "skönt" (German: schön), while in Norwegian it could be "skjønn" (or "skjønt", depending on case). Same word, really.

 

Yet Swedes can also choose the word "underbart" (German: wunderbar) which is not available in Norwegian. Norwegians can say "praktfull" which I am not sure how to trace but which AFAIK is not available in Swedish. So two neighbor languages with close histories will still be very different.

 

When it comes to Dutch and French, don't forget that both Dutch and French are official languages in Belgium (in addition to German), which would explain why they have some words that are the same but have different meanings, and why some words are different but mean the same.

 

:shrug:

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This difference are quite funny take US english and Australian english: in US you can root for a team (ie you support that team), in Australia to root means in a quite vulgaire way to make love....

 

Or non-UK and UK english, to be "mean" means to be bad in non-UK and in UK one is "mean" if he/she wants everything for himself/herself and does not want to share.

 

Why this differences?

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In the case I indicated, "Belgian" Dutch and "Netherlands" Dutch are the same language, there is even a joint Belgian-Dutch official organisation of linguists (known as "Nederlandse Taalunie") to make sure that the languages do not drift apart.

On the other hand, when speaking in the local accent, you will hear no diffirences in villages on both sides of the border. But when people start to write, they use the "standard" language, and then this diffierence becomes apparent.

You will also see that people in the Netherlands are more inclined to accept not only English or German but also French words in their texts (written or spoken) when attempting to use "standard" Dutch. Speaking with the local accent (here meant to include also variations in vocabulary and grammar) Belgian Dutch will be more influenced by French. Although more recently the pressure from English is higher than the pressure from French. e.g. young trainees will use the English terms for spare parts or pieces of equipment, while a generation ago they would have used the French terms.

There is indeed some parallel with the diifference between Norwegian and Swedish because in that case the separation of the countries is relatively recent. And by the way, Tormod, can you enlighten us on the difference between "Bokmäl" and "Nynorsk" ? Or is that sopmething purely academic ?

But the original question concerning English is "how can we explain that there is a word like 'beatiful' ond not a word like 'uglinessful' ? or has there been a single syllab word like 'bo' or 'beau' that has disappeared, and why ?"

And may I suggest to start other treads for other words that have different meanings in different countries using the same language ? Things would get overcrowded otherwise.

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And by the way, Tormod, can you enlighten us on the difference between "Bokmäl" and "Nynorsk" ? Or is that something purely academic?

 

Good question! I'll start a new thread on the topic.

 

And may I suggest to start other treads for other words that have different meanings in different countries using the same language ? Things would get overcrowded otherwise.

 

Sorry for stepping on your thread! :shrug:

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Considering "mean" : the Dutch equivalent "gemeen" has changed in meaning (no pun intented) over the generations.

Originally it meant "common" in the sense of "shared", but this meaning turned into "common" in the sense of "ordinary". From this it turned into "low" (as a moral judgment, not as an indication of altitude) or "mean" in the same sense as in current UK-English, i.e. "not inclined to share".

This also means that in fixed expressions, you may find this word in any of this meanings !

 

Considering the differences between UK-English, US-English, Australian English and maybe other types of English, it is obvious that imigration has a lot to do with it.

On the one hand, this non-UK English will have assimilated words from the languages of of the native people, on the other it will have assimilated words from the languages of non Anglosaxon imigrants.

 

Of course, if a group that continues to speak a given language gets separated from its roots, its language will be influenced by neighbouring languages. e.g. French Canadians apparently use the word char for a car, while in France this word is currently limited to armoured military vehicles (tanks).

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Considering "mean" : the Dutch equivalent "gemeen" has changed in meaning (no pun intented) over the generations.

Originally it meant "common" in the sense of "shared", but this meaning turned into "common" in the sense of "ordinary". From this it turned into "low" (as a moral judgment, not as an indication of altitude) or "mean" in the same sense as in current UK-English, i.e. "not inclined to share".

This also means that in fixed expressions, you may find this word in any of this meanings !

 

Interesting. In Norwegian you can say "den gemene hop", which means "the common crowd", and is not necessarily negative (it can be, but is usually used as a witty comment). But if a person is said to be "gemen", it usually means he's not a particularly nice fellow.

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Interesting. In Norwegian you can say "den gemene hop", which means "the common crowd", and is not necessarily negative (it can be, but is usually used as a witty comment). But if a person is said to be "gemen", it usually means he's not a particularly nice fellow.

 

I know of simmilar cases in Dutch where a given word can be either neutral or negative, but I must say that in most cases there will be a difference in intonation.

 

The same goes for scolding : you can use a word that is quite neutral when you see it written or printed, but when spoken with the right (or wrong) intonation it can be an outright insult. As Tintin is one of the few Belgians known all over the world, I can refer to the vocabulary of his friend Captain Haddock offering lots of examples for this. See also :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exclamations_used_by_Captain_Haddock

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