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What is black hole made out of and what does a black hole "experience"?


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#1 Tim_Lou

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Posted 15 November 2004 - 08:37 PM

black hole attract all sort of matter or non-matters and suck them in.
does it ever end?

it keeps compressing the matter and decreasing its volume.... is there a limit to it?

and what happens to the matter inside a blackhole? does it stays there, disappear and becomes non-existence, or goes into different dimensions? does the gravitional field of a blackhole increases, decreases or remains constant over time (well.. its probably an increase)?

how is matter gonna react to such extreme time dilation and space-time curvature?

#2 Aki

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 12:43 AM

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou
does the gravitional field of a blackhole increases, decreases or remains constant over time (well.. its probably an increase)?

how is matter gonna react to such extreme time dilation and space-time curvature?


yes, the gravitational field of the blackhole should increase because the more it "sucks" in, the more dense it's going to be and the more curved the space will be, therefore the gravitational field will become greater.

I think matter is going to get all crumpled up and then ripped apart into millions of pieces, into particles.

#3 Freethinker

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 10:03 AM

Remember, mass is energy. Energy is information. e.g. a photon is a matrix of info RE the energy it consists of.

There was just a major change in the theory of this Information RE a Black Hole. Hawking, the leading expert of Black Holes, just changed his 30 year stance on them. He had contended that the information of the mass absurbed was lost. But now:

"Hawking Loses Bet; Changes Mind on Black Holes ... A black hole only appears to form but later opens up and releases information about what fell inside. So we can be sure of the past and predict the future."

http://www.space.com...bet_040716.html

#4 Tormod

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 10:14 AM

Originally posted by: Aki
I think matter is going to get all crumpled up and then ripped apart into millions of pieces, into particles.


More likely the particles are ripped apart and converted into energy.

#5 Tim_Lou

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 06:47 PM

"Hawking Loses Bet; Changes Mind on Black Holes ... A black hole only appears to form but later opens up and releases information about what fell inside. So we can be sure of the past and predict the future"

hehe, thats pretty recent news.
however, where would the stuffs in the blackhole be in between the time when it got sucked and the time when it gets released? in between dimensions?

"More likely the particles are ripped apart and converted into energy."
so, particles collide and energy is released? hmm... but none of the stuffs would be able to escape...so, will the energy change into matter and then back into energy again?

if the mass all changes to energy and escape, and if the rate that it sux in matter is lower than the energy that escapes, the blackhole would be destroyed?

what about time dilation? isnt that the "local time" would be zero once got into the black hole due to the extreme gravitional pull?

#6 Aki

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 01:00 AM

I don't think time even exists inside the black hole, am I right?

#7 BlameTheEx

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 02:38 AM

Aki

The problem with Black Holes is that the rules of physics break down within them. So who really knows? At the surface of the singularity (the point at which there is no going back) time dilation is infinite. But is time infinite? if it is then total time experienced at that point = infinity/infinity = any number. How time behaves beyond that point is anybody's guess.

Frankly I am not a believer. The maths involved requires Gravity to have properties that disobey conservation of mass/energy in normal space. I am not saying that a Black Hole can't exist, but I will say they can't be created.

#8 Aki

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 01:14 AM

I know that they're creating baby black holes in labs that lasts for a few seconds, but how are they going to do any goods on the research?

#9 Tormod

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 02:24 AM

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou
if the mass all changes to energy and escape, and if the rate that it sux in matter is lower than the energy that escapes, the blackhole would be destroyed?


Since I'm no expert on black holes I'll answer only this bit.

The answer is "yes", and it's quite obvious (from your question). If you put less in than what goes out then the black hole evaporates.

Blame: You question whether black holes can form. If they exist, wll, then they must have formed somehow. Black holes are the remains of dying stars.

Here is some info, although it was written long before Hawking retracted his "non-evaporation" theory, so the "nothing escapes" bit is now obviously being questioned.

http://www.damtp.cam...c/bh_intro.html

#10 BlameTheEx

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 04:52 PM

Aki.

Err, No.

Nobody has created a black hole. Certainly not one that lasted seconds.

Tormod.

If they exist, you are perhaps right. The one quibble would be that of a Black Hole formed outside the area in which our laws of physics operates. Say before the universe receive its present laws, or transferred from another universe with different laws.

However I do not expect that there are any. My argument was perhaps not clearly made. What I mean is that the laws of physics may allow a black hole to exist, if it could be formed. However, as it can't be, there are none.

I know that Hawking would not agree with my stand, nor for that mater Einstein, but as I have stated before, I have slightly different beliefs regarding the nature of Gravity. While Einstein would have Gravity as a warping of space, I would have it as a dilation of time, with that being equivalent to a reduction in C.

As to Black Holes being the remains of dying stars, in my view it doesn't happen. You just get a wider range of neutron stars.

#11 Aki

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 01:12 AM

I've always wondered if it is possible for a black hole to suck up another black hole, or if a black hole could eventually suck up the whole universe.

#12 Tormod

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 02:28 AM

In the book, "The Five Ages of the Universe", the authors speculate that over the unimaginably long time-span left in the universe, there will come an era where there is basically only black holes in the universe. And even these will evaporate into nothing.

Read my review of it here:
http://www.hypograph...le.cfm?id=29590

#13 Tormod

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 02:31 AM

I wrote up a hypography on black holes a few years back. It seems most of the links are still valid:

Inside Black Holes
http://www.hypograph...eblackholes.cfm

BTW, I do not believe that the laws of physics break down. However, since we are unable to look inside a black hole (as of yet) there is really no way we can know. But while Hawking's recent "retraction" of his "nothing escapes a black hole" theory is interesting, it is important to keep in mind that it is still just a theory.

#14 BlameTheEx

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 04:07 PM

Tormod

The laws of physics don't break down?

Consider. At the surface of the singularity the escape velocity is C. That means that a body simply dropped will reach C at that point (infinite energy), and carry on accelerating (more than infinite energy).

Nor can you argue that it didn't count, as it happens only where we will never know. Consider the case of a body that is not passively dropped, but starts with a velocity towards the Black Hole. It will reach C quicker - before it reaches the surface of the singularity. Infinite energy in normal space!

No. I don't believe that the laws of physics break down ether - which is why I am not a fan of Black Holes.

#15 Tormod

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 04:50 PM

I don't understand a single thing of your last post, Blame. Does a singularity have a surface? And how can it have an escape velocity of c? That would mean that all light would get away easily.

#16 Tim_Lou

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 06:25 PM

hmm, i got an idea, if the photons are trapped in a black hole, does it mean that it is converted into mass?

i read some article online before, it says that the way we detect black hole is some "vitrual photons" that are created and travelled faster than the speed of light and ultimately reached us... is that right or?

#17 Tormod

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 07:02 PM

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou
hmm, i got an idea, if the photons are trapped in a black hole, does it mean that it is converted into mass?


Interesting question. I have no idea though. Posted Image

i read some article online before, it says that the way we detect black hole is some "vitrual photons" that are created and travelled faster than the speed of light and ultimately reached us... is that right or?


No, I'd say that is in violation of the laws of physics. Whether physics breaks down inside a black hole or not, they certainly don't outside of it (AFAIK).