Tormod Posted January 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Why is that funny? I'm merely searching for the truth. Why should it be bizarre that ANYONE would demand evidence? It is funny because a) we have discussed this MANY times before and :hihi: there is no such thing as half man/half ape. It shows that you have completely misunderstood (unwittingly or not) what evolution is, and how Homo Sapiens has evolved. It is also funny because we have just had a discussion on "truth", where my argument was that science looks for knowledge, while religion and philosophy looks for Truth. Your scorn at Darwinism shows a lack of understanding for the scientific method, which again may be unintentional. Nobody here wants to ridicule you, and that is why it is a good idea to hang around a bit and read posts on the subject at hand before jumping in. Now you're in and you are very welcome here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp3089 Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Hello again Stargazer. Here are some replies to your remarks. Again, I'm not intending to irritate, only to investigate. :hihi: Nice how the word evidence is in quotation marks. Surely you're not suggesting that there's no evidence? :-)There are plenty of websites that are devoted to this particular field of science, such as http://www.talkorigins.org and http://evolution.berkeley.edu Thank-you for the websites. Over the next few days, I will definitely check them out. Halfman/halfape skeleton? I think it would be hard to draw an exact line between Homo Sapiens and the recent ancestors. Why is this hard? If evolution is a fact, it should be backed up by substantive evidence. There are many fossils and remains that seems to fit into the tree of human evolution. Obviously it's not complete, but as far as I understand it, the ancestors of us and the ancestors of chimpanzees split up some 6 million years ago or so. What do you mean by "seems" to fit into the tree? How do we know this to be true without a complete fossil record? The fossils and remains could be put together and a tree would form where we see the different hominids including Homo Sapiens, Homo Floresiensis and others. If that's true, then why hasn't it been done? And if it's been done, why isn't it being advertised more widely? Of course, it is perfectly possible that a god killed off and created several different but still similar species, thereby creating the illusion of macroevolution - but why would it be necessary? Hmm... Interesting speculation. But again, there's no evidence for it. I mean, isn't macroevolution just microevolution over a really long period of time? I'm pretty sure it's not. I've read about Irreducible Complexity, and I believe that it has been shown that many animals do contain organs that are irreducibly complex. Once again, I've never discussed this in a forum before, so just let me know if I'm off the mark. I do not, can not and will not hold creationism or religious fundamentalism in high regard. I do respect you all as fellow human beings though. I do realise that lots of people don't know everything about science, and I'm certainly not an exception in any way. I do have an idea of what science is, how it works and why it's superior to other methods of describing the observed reality. If I have come off as brusque or rude I must apologise, but it does get annoying after hearing the same arguments over and over and over again. In the cases where people actually learn from each other, it's fun, but from the numerous occasions that I have seen how people desperately cling to their personal favourite faith or religion, ignoring evidence and lying about what science really is, then it gets really, really irritating. And since plenty of people in past discussions (on other boards at least) simply refuse to listen, learn and to actually read about what they claim to be "against" it's possible that I simply assume that all creationists are the same, that is they believe and refuse to accept scientific evidence. They do seem to accept all the scientific knowledge that made it possible to construct computers, cars and telephones, though. Curious, that. They also seem to accept the theories regarding gravity and atoms. I want to accept scientific knowledge as long as it has sufficient evidence to back up its claims. I'm in the search of truth and knowledge, and I assure you that I'm not against scientific knowledge just because I question something that you are a firm proponent of. Again, my goal is not irritation, it's investigation. Thanks for your time everyone who reads and replys to this. Blessings, JP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquagem Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Yes, yes! There's my point. The current evolutionary theory says that they do... But what about hard evidence? That's what I'm after. Why is that funny? I'm merely searching for the truth. Why should it be bizarre that ANYONE would demand evidence? I find it bizarre that anyone would DEMAND evidence after having apparently putting zero effort into finding some for himself. (I'm assuming you're male, and high on creationism - it's an attitude thing I've seen lots of.) Socrates was once approached by a young man who asked him, "How can I find knowledge?" Socrates took the young man down to a nearby river, pushed him in, and held his head under water until he was thrashing in panic. Then he let him up and asked, "When you were under water, all you wanted was air, right?" "Of course", the young man replied. "Well," said Soc, "if you ever want knowledge that much, you'll find it." The world if FULL of a continuous and growing stream of very hard evidence for evolution. I'd be happy to point you to some of it and discuss what it says once you have come to terms with it and can formulate a thoughtful response. But you are the one who needs to do the studying, and not just the side you've apparently been exposed to. "Why is that funny? I'm merely searching for the truth" is "funny", not as in humorous, but as in, "I've seen this attitude many times before. Claims to want truth, but shows from his demand and the chip on his shoulder that he won't accept any evidence." Maybe you can prove me wrong. You're welcome. IrishEyes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 JP, you ask for proof of evolution, but do you have any valid proof of any other idea? Evolution is logical, we see it on different scales everyday - in business, in governments, and in biology, we simply haven't seen a species diverge enough. As for an incomplete fossil record, at what point would you consider it complete? How close do the fossils need to be to be a transition that you would accept? These questions need to be answered before we know what sources to direct you towards. IrishEyes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp3089 Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Hi there Tormod. Thanks for the reply. It is also funny because we have just had a discussion on "truth", where my argument was that science looks for knowledge, while religion and philosophy looks for Truth. I'd like to read that discussion. Is it still available? Nobody here wants to ridicule you, and that is why it is a good idea to hang around a bit and read posts on the subject at hand before jumping in. Now you're in and you are very welcome here. I appreciate the extra measure of humor and graciousness. Thanks for the welcome. :hihi: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted January 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Why is this hard? If evolution is a fact, it should be backed up by substantive evidence. ... What do you mean by "seems" to fit into the tree? How do we know this to be true without a complete fossil record? ... If that's true, then why hasn't it been done? And if it's been done, why isn't it being advertised more widely? Here we go again... "If evolution is a fact" Evolution is a process, just like geology is a process. There are different theories of evolution, but the evidence for the process is right in front of your eyes. Like Aquagem said, do some research - some VERY basic research should suffice. "without a complete fossil record" How could we ever have a complete fossil record? Do you have any idea how fossils are created? "why isn't it being advertised more" This one is good. Maybe it is advertised but not in the journals you happen to read? It would of course help you if you read some of the sources where evolution is discussed and not only explained as a vile lie. Subscribe to any science magazine and you will soon grow tired of the evidence. Or...read some of the news at Hypography - there is a lot of evolution news there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted January 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 I'd like to read that discussion. Is it still available? Why of course. http://www.hypography.com/scienceforums/showthread.php?t=1182 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishEyes Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 I simply assume that all creationists are the same, I've heard this once or twice... :rant: While I can understand your frustration, and appreciate your passion for your very logical approach to your worldview, I ask that you please consider that maybe not ALL creationists are as bad as you think. There may be a few, one or maybe even two, that will listen and learn. Because someone is a creationist, and they don't undergo a drastric and visible change of attitude, that does not mean that they are disregarding what you say, or the evidences that you put forth. Oftentimes, people have been raised to think a certain thing for all of their lives, and the thought that they have been intentionally misled into believing in a God that does not exit is not only frightening, but also maddening. Please take this into account when you start off with the attitude that it is going to be a battle. There are people every single day that walk away from their faith. Oftentimes, it is because people like you have shown them another way to look at things. However, I will say that if your attitude is that they will never change their minds, then you will not convince many people that your research and evidence is valid. That whole "kill them with kindness" thing really works, you know. :hihi: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted January 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Irish, who are you quoting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 National Geographic did an article on evolution recently entitled Was Darwin Wrong? in which they explained that there was overwhelming evidence in favor of evolution - if I can find my copy, I'll post some of their evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted January 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Here is the introduction online: http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0411/feature1/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp3089 Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Hi Tormod, If you have any links or specific articles that I should read, please post them and I'll do my best to get to them. Here we go again... "If evolution is a fact" Evolution is a process, just like geology is a process. There are different theories of evolution, but the evidence for the process is right in front of your eyes. Like Aquagem said, do some research - some VERY basic research should suffice. "without a complete fossil record" How could we ever have a complete fossil record? Do you have any idea how fossils are created? Are there any websites or articles that would inform me more about how the fossil record gives evidence for evolution? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm asking in genuine interest. "why isn't it being advertised more" This one is good. Maybe it is advertised but not in the journals you happen to read? It would of course help you if you read some of the sources where evolution is discussed and not only explained as a vile lie. Subscribe to any science magazine and you will soon grow tired of the evidence. Or...read some of the news at Hypography - there is a lot of evolution news there. Which news articles specifically? I'll definitely try to read them. And which journal, month, and issue? I'll try to get ahold of them. Thanks for the reply. Blessings, JP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Yes, yes! There's my point. The current evolutionary theory says that they do... But what about hard evidence? That's what I'm after.You mean, of course, all the fossil evidence, the genetic evidence? Why is that funny? I'm merely searching for the truth. Why should it be bizarre that ANYONE would demand evidence?Because so far, I haven't met or seen one creationist that has the slightest evidence in support of their own myth. They do like to attack evolution by making claims that are at best dubious and usually flat out wrong. If they do this on purpose I see it as deeply immoral, but otherwise it's just that they don't know better, and then I should blame their education system instead, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishEyes Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Irish, who are you quoting? sorry, all.the quote "I simply assume that all creationists are the same,"is from stargazer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 So JP, do you have any evidence for creationism? I've never read any articles that provided evidence, merely ones that attempted to debunk evolution. I'd be willing to weigh evidence if I saw any for creationism other that "we exist, don't we?" which is too common among some creationists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted January 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Hi Tormod, If you have any links or specific articles that I should read, please post them and I'll do my best to get to them. Try this: http://www.hypography.com/cgi-bin/search/search.pl?Terms=evolution&Realm=Hypography Are there any websites or articles that would inform me more about how the fossil record gives evidence for evolution? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm asking in genuine interest. Try this: http://www.hypography.com/cgi-bin/search/search.pl?Terms=evolution&Realm=sciencesites Which news articles specifically? I'll definitely try to read them. And which journal, month, and issue? I'll try to get ahold of them. Thanks for the reply. You're joking, right? There are tons of stories out there. ANY popular science magazine will suffice. Any month, any issue. If you want the real thing, go here: http://evol.allenpress.com/evolonline/ ...they probably have enough magazines in your local library, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp3089 Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Hi there pg. Well said, well said... and it's sad that many don't have an argument besides "we exist, don't we?". I will try to post some evidences, articles, etc. tonight. So JP, do you have any evidence for creationism? I've never read any articles that provided evidence, merely ones that attempted to debunk evolution. I'd be willing to weigh evidence if I saw any for creationism other that "we exist, don't we?" which is too common among some creationists. I agree. Far too common. Thanks for the challenge. Blessings, JP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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