Space Voyage #1

[Jay-qu]

sorry maybe I didnt make it clear - it is enriched to 5% for the purposes of nuclear reactors, I would assume that it is much more for bombs and such. It works be removing useless U238 which accounts for the majority of mass.

[Janus]

Who could ask for a better crew than this. I am surrounded by geniouses!

 

 

 

So...

 

Suggestion: Our tank is filled with spent nuclear fuel that is a single step from being turned back into enriched uranium. This way the whole tank can be filled with the stuff, but in a fairly stable way. As the fuel is brought to the engine it is enriched in line before passing into the engine.

Question: Is that plausible?

I don't see this as saving us any and possibly causing us to lose efficiency. Enriching the fuel will leave us with a lot of waste non-fissionable material, Plus now you have to add the mass of the enriching equipment.

 

 

 

 

And in answer to your question Janus, The sections are straight. There will be a weird effect near the ends as the gravity will be a bit angular. But we will get used to it. I have them straight because a banana doesn't fly straight. These are assembled on the ground and lauched as completed units. It will add character to the experience. :evil: Ever been to "the mystery spot"?

 

(t-27)

 

Bill

 

It depends on how you package the banana. The LEM wasn't exactly aerodynamic either, but they got around that by encasing it in an aerodynamic shell for the period of atmospheric flight.

 

I really think curved sections would be better. To further argue my point, just look at how good she looks entering Martian orbit with curved sections:

 

And yes, I have been to the Mystery spot (out at least one of many).

[TheBigDog]

Wowwie-kazowwie!

 

Janus, that is a great picture! We will figure out how to get the curved secions into space. Maybe they are launched straight and flex into shape when installed? In any event, I am sold on curved sections. Excellent job!

 

Bill

[Janus]

sorry maybe I didnt make it clear - it is enriched to 5% for the purposes of nuclear reactors, I would assume that it is much more for bombs and such. It works be removing useless U238 which accounts for the majority of mass.

 

Weapons grade uranium is enriched to over 90% U235.

 

To give an idea of the process, the Uranium is first converted into uranium hexafluoride (UF6) gas, and then either run through a centifuge or a series of diffusion plates to separate the U238 from the U235.

 

Now, as far as "enriching" nuclear waste goes. typical reactor waste breaks down thusly:

 

33 tonnes of spent nuclear fuel contains:

 

31.5 tonnes depleted uranium

 

1.2 tonnes fission products & actinides

 

300 kilograms plutonium

 

Depleted uranium is uranium in which the U235 content has dropped below that usable for a reactor. you might be able to enrich this by extracting this unused U235, but I doubt that you will get more than a few hundred kg.

 

The fission byproducts are useless to us.

 

The plutonium is of interest, as a percentage of that will be PU239, which is useful for nuclear detonation devices.

 

One problem with reactor waste is that many of the of the fission by-products are higly radioactive, and thus the waste is too "hot" to safely handle. You have to wait until these byproducts decay before you can think about processing it.

 

One possibility would be to use the extracted plutonium and depleted uranium in a fast breeder reactor, which will breed us more plutonium for our fuel.

[Pyrotex]

...just look at how good she looks entering Martian orbit with curved sections...

Janus, that is incredibly awesome. You are talented, skilled, perserverant, and artistic. You are probably ambicranial. Both my hats off to you!!!

:) :) :hihi: ;) :D :D :D

[TheBigDog]

I am inspired today by some specials on the Science Channel about various planetary explorations. Our voyage aboard the Prophesy will be the envy of them all. It is high time we began to talk about our exploration goals and that we insure we have the correct equipment on board to complete that exploration. I am most interested in heading out and back again. I would to retrace the path of Voyager 2, and visit all of the outer planets. Only instead of sending back still pictures from uncontrolled flybys we will linger as we please; send back full spectrums of analysis; and take samples as we please.

 

We should have a compliment of landing craft. From "Viking" style landers. To surface rovers. To things akin to Galileo probe of Jupiter's atmosphere. I would like to have a shuttle that can carry a crew and equipment to a planet or moon surface for extended manned exploration. Perhaps some specialized equipment for drilling through ice to try and locate wet seas heated by the core of planets. We should be equipped well enough, and have enough agility with our fine ship to makes and change plans as we go. Lingering where we find things of interest, and moving on when we are satisfied with what we have found.

 

Some probes might be launched in pairs or small groups to concentrate exploration. Probes on a planet surface, and an orbiting surveyor/relay satellite to communicate information back to earth and to the Prophesy crew. And for key equipment the ability to retrieve our probes, with samples, for more detailed analysis back on the ship, or ultimately, back on earth.

 

Aside from scientific exploration of our planet, we will be doing research on the matter of sustaining resources aboard a space ship for indefinate time of exploration. This is a matter of research, and while we will attempt to create that environment onboard the Prophesy I acknowledge that it is not plausible on our first attempt. Part of what will change in the outfitting of the ship between each mission will be changes called for in the attempt to amke the ship on each mission more self sufficient. Because we are never going to be more than a few months from earth we do not absolutly need to accomplish this on our first mission. Once we have gained some expertise in this field we will be reay for our first interstellar missions. But I am getting ahead of myself.

 

Our Astrophysicist, Jay-qu has expressed some interest in going to Jupiter. I plan on spending months in the orbit of Jupiter. With missions to her many moons happeing on a weekly basis. And that before we move on to Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and maybe even Pluto. All before returning to earth with our bounty of information. So lets get to planning!

 

I think we should actually begin with a trip around the moon. This is partly symbolic, and partly "sea trials". We will place a satellite in orbit around the moon, along with an automated and manned lander on the moon. Then we will take a trip around the earth with the Prophesy, and retreive our equipment and crews again. Upon evaluation of this manuver we will either go back to earth for changes, or head out toward Mars, and Jupiter, and Saturn... And all this begins in just... 25 days.

 

So for the short term, what do we want to accomplish on the moon during the checkout of our systems?

 

Bill (t-25)

[Janus]

I actually did this for another similar project a couple of years ago, but I quess we can refurbish it for this mission. It is a lander explorer, that combines the viking lander with rover and return sample abilties.

It has three rovers that are roll down the shown ramps (the ramps are fold up during storage and landing).

 

Two lander mounted cameras

 

The small conical section jutting up from the middle is part of the ascent capsule for sample return. It launches and returns to the ship while leaving the main body of the lander behind. This was orginally done for a Europa probe mission, so the image is of the lander sitting on the surface of Europa, with Jupiter in the background.

 

[Jay-qu]

nice! what program do you use for these Janus?

[Janus]

nice! what program do you use for these Janus?

 

I use Pov-Ray.

[TheFaithfulStone]

I use Pov-Ray

 

Translation:

I'm a masochist.

 

That is the hardest of cores, dogg.

 

TFS

[GAHD]

I dunno if I'd say hardest of cores, but that does blow my sloppy use of Max outta the water.

 

We should start a new thread about 3D programs :naughty:

[TheFaithfulStone]

Have you ever used POV-Ray? There's no modeller! It's a description language. Doing anything with more than a dozen primitives is just...

 

it's just...

 

words....

 

should... have.. sent... a poet.

 

TFS

 

check it...http://www.spaceartbydavid.com

 

In BRYCE. You should challenge this guy to a space-ship off or something... you could both do it while sitting on a palette of hot coals having your toenails pulled out by hideous demons. Or you could use Pov-Ray and Bryce.

[Pyrotex]

To wrap up a few questions and loose threads.

 

Electrical power. We need an Energizer Bunny on steroids. One way of doing this is to have powerful magnetic coils surrounding a flow of plasma. The rocket exhaust is plasma. So a percentage of our thrust could be sacrificed to draw power.

 

We won't be thrusting ALL the time folks. We really don't need 100 years of continuous thrust. 100 thrust-days should do it. Remember, 1 [ONE] thrust-day gives us a delta-V of between 150,000 and 200,000 MPH. 3 thrust-days should push us well over 500,000 MPH, we cruise unpowered to Jupiter in 6 months, and 3 thrust-days to decellerate into orbit. Is that good enough??

 

What about power when we are not thrusting? We need a nuclear thermal reactor. It will have to be shielded. Sorry. I'm gamma intolerant, and if you don't shield the reactor, I won't be able to go. :) {sniff} Fortunately, a 5 megawatt reactor core should only be the size of a volkswagon bus. It should be mounted on the nose of our ship like a loooooong radio antenna boom, with generators, reactor and a disk-like shield way out in front, well away from protoplasm.

 

Or we can use balonium, which is as light as parafin wax and will stop any radiation. :hihi:

 

Changing course is gonna be a *****. Sorry. The rotating hab-pods, you know. Have you ever put a bicycle wheel on a ten-inch axle--hold the axle with by either end--spun the wheel up real fast--and tried to change the pointing direction of the axle??? :confused: It is incredibly difficult--and the axle wants to move at right angles to the force you are exerting. Lotsa fun.

 

So, we must assume we de-spin the ship for flip-overs and all other course corrections. I'm fulla bad news today. Oh, well, just say that the crew gets two days of zero gee for recreation and amusement.

 

We could "store" unused electrical power by separating water into H2 and O2, then recombine as need to supply power and water.

 

How do we get the goshawful goddammerungen specific impulse (fuel efficiency) we need to keep our fuel ratio down below 20%-40%??? Using it for heat is not good enough. We need the efficiency we get in a tamper & implosion squeeze device.

 

I have one word for you: lasers. The fuel is powdered, mixed well, and coated in plastic. Each grain of powder is uniformly coated. Many large tanks of powder, shielded with balonium. The grains are individually ionized, shot down an electric rail-gun, and as it enters one of the firing chambers, a 1 nanosecond burst of laser light from all sides hits the grain, vaporizing the plastic explosively, and squeezing the powder grain down to half its normal volume. KABOOM! 1 ton equivalent high explosives. Just off the top of my ***, we need to burn maybe 1,000 grains per second. Easy sneezy. Half our thrust goes to power the lasers and refill our H2/O2 tanks.

 

That's all I can think of for now.

[TheBigDog]

Electrical power. We need an Energizer Bunny on steroids. One way of doing this is to have powerful magnetic coils surrounding a flow of plasma. The rocket exhaust is plasma. So a percentage of our thrust could be sacrificed to draw power.

...

 

What about power when we are not thrusting? We need a nuclear thermal reactor. It will have to be shielded. Sorry. I'm gamma intolerant, and if you don't shield the reactor, I won't be able to go. :doh: {sniff} Fortunately, a 5 megawatt reactor core should only be the size of a volkswagon bus. It should be mounted on the nose of our ship like a loooooong radio antenna boom, with generators, reactor and a disk-like shield way out in front, well away from protoplasm.

I would go with the nuclear thermal reactor. It should be able to exist within the main tank surrounded by shielding.

Changing course is gonna be a *****. Sorry. The rotating hab-pods, you know. Have you ever put a bicycle wheel on a ten-inch axle--hold the axle with by either end--spun the wheel up real fast--and tried to change the pointing direction of the axle??? :confused: It is incredibly difficult--and the axle wants to move at right angles to the force you are exerting. Lotsa fun.

 

So, we must assume we de-spin the ship for flip-overs and all other course corrections. I'm fulla bad news today. Oh, well, just say that the crew gets two days of zero gee for recreation and amusement.

We will not need to "unspin". The spin gives us a great deal of inherent stability for aiming at a distant point and getting there. And making for a very stable ride for the crew. I have an idea to utilizing control plates on the exhaust bell to use the nuclear explosions pushing the ship to help steer it.

We could "store" unused electrical power by separating water into H2 and O2, then recombine as need to supply power and water.

With the "vw bus" supplying power we won't need batteries, will we?

How do we get the goshawful goddammerungen specific impulse (fuel efficiency) we need to keep our fuel ratio down below 20%-40%??? Using it for heat is not good enough. We need the efficiency we get in a tamper & implosion squeeze device.

 

I have one word for you: lasers. The fuel is powdered, mixed well, and coated in plastic. Each grain of powder is uniformly coated. Many large tanks of powder, shielded with balonium. The grains are individually ionized, shot down an electric rail-gun, and as it enters one of the firing chambers, a 1 nanosecond burst of laser light from all sides hits the grain, vaporizing the plastic explosively, and squeezing the powder grain down to half its normal volume. KABOOM! 1 ton equivalent high explosives. Just off the top of my ***, we need to burn maybe 1,000 grains per second. Easy sneezy. Half our thrust goes to power the lasers and refill our H2/O2 tanks.

 

That's all I can think of for now.

That is pretty much how I was thinking of it. I am struggling to figure out how we protect the lasers from the steady stream of nuclear detonations.

 

You are also right about us not needing 100 years of thrust. But I think we should examine what a misson of say 5-10 years, visiting all the outer planets and moons would require thrust wise. Without having to do fancy orbital boost trick shots to get from place to place. (although that looks like a fun ride)

 

Another thoughtful post Pyro. Another step closer to a working ship?

 

Bill (t-24)

[IDMclean]

Some thoughts regarding designs.

 

For enrichment I thought that a Solar collector would perhaps work to "revilatize" our Waste fuel. Not like Solar arrays to collect Electricity but to collect solar radiation and replete our depleted fuel.

 

For Power generation once again Nuclear Fuel, As well as Solar Arrays. What is the surface area that we can use of the ship itself to collect? Also How about Orbital Tows, you know collect power through a series drag cables.

 

As for changing course, couldn't we compenstate for our turning problem by channeling that power into our system, using Gyroscopic stabilization?

 

Oh and I would like to vote that Janus be made Chief Engineer and Head Physicist. I'm theoretical applications, it's clear to me that Pyrotex and Janus outrank me.

 

For course I would purpose a visit to Mars followed by a jump to Jupiter. We could perhaps launch a Probe into the Inner asteroid belt while we are at it.

 

thoughts everyone?

[GAHD]

Hmm, Is there a way to focus solar rays onto the spent fuel? now that'd be an interesting thing, especially if you flew in say, around the orbit of mercury. Could a magnetic sail do it? Kinda like a magnetic lense...

[Janus]

 

We will not need to "unspin". The spin gives us a great deal of inherent stability for aiming at a distant point and getting there. And making for a very stable ride for the crew. I have an idea to utilizing control plates on the exhaust bell to use the nuclear explosions pushing the ship to help steer it.

 

Bill (t-24)

 

Whether we decide to go with a low level constant thrust or the shorter stronger thrust (Pyrotex's numbers seem to assume a 1/10g thrust to reach the stated speed in three days.), We are going to have to "flip" the ship around. Remember, our main engine is also the brake. This is going to be mush easier if we de-spin the ship first.