Terraforming Other Planets?

[Turtle]

Without a magnetic field anything you do to the atmosphere is just pissing in the wind. I don't think Mars is a viable candidate for terraforming.

 

Bill

 

do you come by that from the meme that our magnetic field on earth protects us from radiation? if so, eclogite showed me/us a couple years back that this is a mistaken idea. i can find the discussion if you need it. :hyper:

 

cutting to chase: Switching Poles

[TheBigDog]

do you come by that from the meme that our magnetic field on earth protects us from radiation? if so, eclogite showed me/us a couple years back that this is a mistaken idea. i can find the discussion if you need it. :hyper:

 

cutting to chase: Switching Poles

 

Not so much from Radiation as from solar wind carrying our atmosphere off into space.

[Eclipse Now]

Answer: Giant magnifying glass that concentrates solar rays on Mars protects Mars from the solar wind, and yet lets only the good radiation through. We'd probably need some kind of self-healing nano-materials and it's all impossible now, but hey? 50 years we might be firing AI robots into the asteroid belt to manufacture all manner of high-tech miracle. Self-reproducing exponentially growing numbers of AI mining ships? Space solar plants to shoot back into orbit around the earth? Floating halo habitats for people? And maybe the Giant magnifying glass for Mars?

[Turtle]

Not so much from Radiation as from solar wind carrying our atmosphere off into space.

 

yeah; i saw some business on that when doing more searching on the subject last night. it seems unsettled though and we need to keep in mind that a space body's size, and so gravity, play an important role in holding an atmosphere. :doh: i say let's give 'er a try anyway. :beer: :lol:

[SanityDeprivedLunatic]

well what are some ways we could create a magnetic field that big? if we can create a magnetic field, we can solve a lot of problems including radiation, and maybe even solar wind.

[Turtle]

well what are some ways we could create a magnetic field that big? if we can create a magnetic field, we can solve a lot of problems including radiation, and maybe even solar wind.

 

no; the magnetic field does not protect from radiation. the atmosphere itself does that. this is what is explained in the thread i linked to for bigdog. :beer:

[TheBigDog]

In any event, we must start with a magnetic field. I will think about it today while I am touring Hoover Dam.

[Turtle]

In any event, we must start with a magnetic field. I will think about it today while I am touring Hoover Dam.

 

what study(s) lead you to this assertion? enjoy the turbine gallery. :beer:

[Moontanman]

Again I would like to point out that terraforming a planet is so 20th century. Why bother? Build orbiting space colonies, such colonies can move around the solar system, ort cloud, Kuiper belt, and will be easier to build and take much less time. Raw materials are already in space, large colonies can provide everything from open air to forests and lakes and even streams. Toroidal space colonies is where the smart money is, leave the dead planets to the dead....

[belovelife]

Huge lens in space , probly from the asteroid belt?

Could transfer energy via microwave to surface colecting

sattelte dishes and heat up the atmosphere

I wonder if we could orbit Jupiter and Saturn

and collect more gasses from their thermoshere

the add it to mars

 

I like the lichen idea

since some thrive in radiation envuroments

but would worms survive?

 

The Colorado mountin streams have high rust content

so could we harness organisms the thrive in the winter there

and use them for their abilities?

 

-----------

amphibian humans in space

 

we would probly lose our bones and heavily rely on tequnology

to keep us Alive were we to visit a planet

but could probly do it

 

then we would probly bring some giant squid to space to live with us

teach them math and try to find a way to get them and the sperm whales

to live in harmony

[Moontanman]

Huge lens in space , probly from the asteroid belt?

Could transfer energy via microwave to surface colecting

sattelte dishes and heat up the atmosphere

I wonder if we could orbit Jupiter and Saturn

and collect more gasses from their thermoshere

the add it to mars

 

I am sure at some point we can do this but eventually the atmosphere would have to capture the required amount of heat in it's own.

 

I like the lichen idea

since some thrive in radiation envuroments

but would worms survive?

 

Worms might survive after many thousands of years of lichen growth establishes organic soil...

 

The Colorado mountin streams have high rust content

so could we harness organisms the thrive in the winter there

and use them for their abilities?

 

I'm not sure why we would want to do this but I see no reason why not.

 

-----------

amphibian humans in space

 

we would probly lose our bones and heavily rely on tequnology

to keep us Alive were we to visit a planet

but could probly do it

 

So you are talking about living in zero gee? I would prefer artificial gravity, it would keep us healthier in the long run and more human..

 

 

then we would probly bring some giant squid to space to live with us

teach them math and try to find a way to get them and the sperm whales

to live in harmony

 

I'm not sure why we would want to do this either, can you elaborate?

[SanityDeprivedLunatic]

no; the magnetic field does not protect from radiation. the atmosphere itself does that. this is what is explained in the thread i linked to for bigdog.

 

My bad. I meant to say it would help solve those problems. :doh:

[Eclipse Now]

Which particular study showed that thick enough atmosphere deals with the radiation problem? KSR's "Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars" trilogy didn't mention generating a magnetic field, so I'm assuming he knew about the atmospheric protection.

 

However, regarding the solar wind blowing the atmosphere away... would a giant 'glass window' in front of Mars stop the solar wind and yet still let the light through? (It would probably be more like a giant solar sail with louvres that sat at different angles to offset the pressure of the wind blowing the sail away).

[Turtle]

Which particular study showed that thick enough atmosphere deals with the radiation problem? KSR's "Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars" trilogy didn't mention generating a magnetic field, so I'm assuming he knew about the atmospheric protection. ...

 

i'll look for more, but here's what eclogite & i came to in the Swithching Poles thread.

 

first, actual measurements from venus: (apparently i did not provide a link. :doh: my bad. )

I just watched a new Science Channel piece on Venus & ESA's new craft. A mix of Venus facts & past missions as well as data from the new craft. Anyway, they made the comment how the solar wind strips 100 tons of atmosphere from venus every day because Venus has no(weaker than Earth?) magnetic field. Along with this commentary they showed some solar wind measurements taken before orbit entry to test the equipment,

So now I wonder to what degree Earth's magnetic field keeps the atmosphere in place?

I hope this is new speculation on my part, & not part of the common speculation we have already discussed.:hihi:

 

then some calculations from eclogite:

One of the problems with Terraforming Mars is atmospheric erosion. You could provide an atmosphere by impacting several large comets. However, the solar wind, acting on an unprotected atmosphere on a low gravity planet, would remove much of the atmosphere in a geologically short interval - I have seen estimates as low as 50,000 years.

 

So, there is no doubt that the permanent loss of the Earth's field would be problematic in the very long term. Let's do a quick back of the envelope calculation.

Even though our atmosphere is less dense, and we are further from the sun, let's assume the same loss rate - 100 tons per day.

Consider the loss we would have experienced since the Cambrian

100 tons x 365 days x 550 million years = 2.0 x 10^13 tons

 

Now consider the total mass of the atmosphere

 

First, the surface area of the Earth is given by 4.pi.r^2. (I'll calculate it in square inches for reasons that will become apparent.)

Area = 4 * pi * (4,000*5280*12)^2

= 8.07 x 10^17

 

Air pressure, due to the overlying mass of air, is 14.7 psi.

Therefore, mass of the atmosphere in pounds = 8.07 x 10^17 x 14.7 = 1.19 x 10^19

Mass in tons = 1.19 x 10^19/2200 = 5.39 x 10^15 tons

 

So had we been losing atmosphere to the solar wind, then since the Cambrian we would have lost (2.0 x 10^13/5.39 x 10^15), or 0.4%.

 

I think you'll agree that's not much of a problem.:)

 

i venture that the solar wind is more diffuse at earth than at venus and at mars than at earth, so for the purposes of this thread that seems worth further calculation. then there is the matter of ongoing replenishment of an atmosphere, something i suspect our oceans would contribute to for quite some time here on earth in the absence of a magnetic field. not sure how each element or compound in our atmosphere specifically intercepts & reacts to which charged particles. :shrug:

 

that's all i got. . . . . . :doh:

 

no wait!!! you asked about radiation, not charged particles.

 

...Different molecules absorb different wavelengths of radiation. For example, O2 and O3 absorb almost all wavelengths shorter than 300 nanometers. Water (H2O) absorbs many wavelengths above 700 nm. When a molecule absorbs a photon, it increases the energy of the molecule. We can think of this as heating the atmosphere, but the atmosphere also cools by emitting radiation, as discussed below.

 

 

Rough plot of Earth's atmospheric transmittance (or opacity) to various wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation, including visible light.The combined absorption spectra of the gases in the atmosphere leave "windows" of low opacity, allowing the transmission of only certain bands of light. The optical window runs from around 300 nm (ultraviolet-C) up into the range humans can see, the visible spectrum (commonly called light), at roughly 400–700 nm and continues to the infrared to around 1100 nm. There are also infrared and radio windows that transmit some infrared and radio waves at longer wavelengths. For example, the radio window runs from about one centimeter to about eleven-meter waves. ...

Atmosphere of Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[SanityDeprivedLunatic]

Which particular study showed that thick enough atmosphere deals with the radiation problem? KSR's "Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars" trilogy didn't mention generating a magnetic field, so I'm assuming he knew about the atmospheric protection.

 

However, regarding the solar wind blowing the atmosphere away... would a giant 'glass window' in front of Mars stop the solar wind and yet still let the light through? (It would probably be more like a giant solar sail with louvres that sat at different angles to offset the pressure of the wind blowing the sail away).

 

everybody says glass, but why not plasma? a plasma shield would be relatively cheap and easier to make than a giant window.

[Boerseun]

Again I would like to point out that terraforming a planet is so 20th century. Why bother? Build orbiting space colonies, such colonies can move around the solar system, ort cloud, Kuiper belt, and will be easier to build and take much less time. Raw materials are already in space, large colonies can provide everything from open air to forests and lakes and even streams. Toroidal space colonies is where the smart money is, leave the dead planets to the dead....

 

Living in hollowed-out asteroids might be cool and much quicker to achieve than wholesale planetary reconfiguration, but what about... CLAUSTROPHOBIA [/freaky blood-dripping 'fifties horror-show font]

 

...no, seriously. Think about it. What's the use of having a couple of thousand peeps live inside a rock if they all eventually go postal on each others' ***? And how would you prevent it? I think humans need space... no pun intended.

[Eclipse Now]

Boerseun,

I think we'll eventually use both approaches.

1. Moon colony for a 'rail-gun' to shoot building materials to the L5 point, and even solar-PV is the world is too chicken to use GenIV nuclear power.

2. L5 station fully 'charged up' with enough plutonium, people, and building materials and shuttles to head out to Mars.

3. Station now in orbit around Mars sends a few shuttles down to begin city building.

4. Maybe the Station floats onto the asteroid belt to start shooting them back to Mars? Explosives detonate asteroids in upper atmosphere to thicken them up.