Determinism

[Pyrotex]

That's dealing with the physical limitations of a human,...I thought that the Chaos Theory was mostly about the sensitivity to initial conditions - that since every system is highly sensitive to its initial conditions, right down to the subatomic particles, then it appears chaotic, but that in truth, everything was determined.

:eek2: :eek2: :hihi: :( :eek2: :Guns: :hihi: :lol: :eek: :doh: :)

Yes, I know you think that InfiniteNow and I are talking about human limitations. It's okay. That's what you have to think the first 5 or 10 times we talk about this. It takes a LOT of seeping in, before the TRUE HORROR of what we're saying eventually seeps in.

:D :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

 

Sensitivity to initial conditions. That's the first step of understanding. Now take the second step. No matter how accurately the initial conditions are known, there exists a finite set of "cycles" of the system at which point the margin of error becomes larger than the system.

 

Think about that a while. Drink some tea. Go to the bathroom. Watch some TV. Sleep. Have sex. Drive out in the country. Then think about it some more. Chaos Theory is very patient. :cup: :confused:

[MagnetMan]

If the Universe was strictly determinsitic, God would have died of boredom long ago.:cake:

[Pyrotex]

If the Universe was strictly determinsitic, God would have died of boredom long ago.:wave:

It is worse than that!

If the Universe was strictly deterministic, God would cease to exist.

Reasoning:

 

God is omniscient and omnipotent -- it says here in small print.

 

The Universe is deterministic, therefore God knows everything that is going to happen, for ever and always. Therefore the Universe MUST happen that way or else God is not omniscient. Therefore, God cannot arbitrarily intervene in the Universe. Key word: "arbitrarily". If he intervenes, then he knows ahead of time that he WILL intervene and therefore he MUST intervene. God becomes a part of the Universe. He has no more free will than humans and therefore, he is not and cannot be omnipotent. Poof! God vanishes.

 

This cannot be!! :eek: God must exist and must be omnipotent. Therefore God can do anything, including arbitrary interventions in the Universe. If God arbitrarily intervenes, then the Universe is not predictable, because prediction is predicated on Laws, and God acting arbitrarily is "outside" the Laws. The Laws cannot be used to predict God's actions, after all. Therefore the Universe is NOT predictable unless God refrains from ALL arbitrary intervention. If God NEVER intervenes then he is impotent rather than omnipotent. If God does NOT know ahead of time when and how he will intervene, then he is NOT omniscient. If God DOES know ahead of time when and how he will intervene, then we are back to the previous paragraph and God cannot be omnipotent. Poof! God vanishes.

[MagnetMan]

It is worse than that!

If the Universe was strictly deterministic, God would cease to exist. If God does NOT know ahead of time when and how he will intervene, then he is NOT omniscient. If God DOES know ahead of time when and how he will intervene, then we are back to the previous paragraph and God cannot be omnipotent. Poof! God vanishes.

 

Well, since God has intervened in the lives of countless individuals through the Ages, Poof! God magically reappears.

[Pyrotex]

Well, since God has intervened in the lives of countless individuals through the Ages, Poof! God magically reappears.

Which means that God must reappear and disappear almost instantaneously at every point in space, very much like quantum virtual particles. This is all very good and all, except that such QVP's are inherently unable to perform any "work". So, we are once more led to the unalterable conclusion that if God exists, he is impotent.

[Erasmus00]

My remarks will focus more on physics and determinism.

 

In classical Hamiltonian physics, everything we need to know to specify a given physical state are all the positions and all the momentum of the particles in our system at some time. If we know this, then in classical physics we know everything about what the state will do in the future.

 

However, when we roll into quantum theory we discover that we can't actual make these specifications. If we narrow down the position too accurately, we find the momentum could be nearly anything, and visa versa. What this means is that we can come up with a number of likely trajectories for our system, but we cannot determine THE unique future state. We instead have different trajectories and different probabilities for each. We have lost the determinism, which isn't a bad thing. Many of the statistical/thermodynamics properties we take for granted are only possible given the fact that we can only narrow position and velocity down to a volume of about h (plank's constant).

-Will

[Pyrotex]

My remarks will focus more on physics and determinism....However, when we roll into quantum theory we discover that we can't actual make these specifications....

Good reasoning and spot on.

I would like to point out that there are at least TWO independent sources of anti-determinism in our Universe:

1) There is quantum randomness which Erasmus has pointed out. It is not random in the sense that we humans don't know enough--it is random in the sense that quantum processes are NOT cause-effect processes.

2) There is non-linear chaos, the so-called Butterfly Effect. Even in macro processes driven by deterministic equations, like the weather and the orbits of the planets around the Sun, the very fact that these equations are non-linear means that long-term predictions are inherently impossible. In principle, not just because of ignorance.

 

So, the Universe is filled with inherently random events, and even those events that are totally deterministic can be predicted out for only a finite time due to non-linearity.

 

The Universe is under NO obligation whatsoever to behave itself in accordance with predictions, even predictions made with the benefit of "godly" infinite knowledge.:singer:

[lindagarrette]

Good reasoning and spot on.

I would like to point out that there are at least TWO independent sources of anti-determinism in our Universe:

1) There is quantum randomness which Erasmus has pointed out. It is not random in the sense that we humans don't know enough--it is random in the sense that quantum processes are NOT cause-effect processes.

2) There is non-linear chaos, the so-called Butterfly Effect. Even in macro processes driven by deterministic equations, like the weather and the orbits of the planets around the Sun, the very fact that these equations are non-linear means that long-term predictions are inherently impossible. In principle, not just because of ignorance.

 

So, the Universe is filled with inherently random events, and even those events that are totally deterministic can be predicted out for only a finite time due to non-linearity.

 

Determinism explains the behavior of our space/time universe. It doe not apply to quantum mechanics. Time is not a factor in quantum equations.

 

Chaos theory proves determinism. An external event will change a variable in a closed system which will result in a new outcome. Otherwise, given the same initial state and no alterations, the exact result will occur every time.

[InfiniteNow]

Linda,

 

Macro physics imply cause and effect, and are certainly a good approximation of the events in the universe, however, they are by no means a one-to-one fit. QM clearly seems to be a better description of the universe than classical ideas, so it would seem that (while probabilities of certain events will remain quite high) everything is random and there is no such thing as cause and effect.

 

Causality has been challenged and the studies repeatedly confirmed which violate Bell's theorem, or put another way, confirm quantum nonlocality.

 

 

Cheers. :)

[Erasmus00]

Time is not a factor in quantum equations.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. Time is explicit in the schroedinger equation, etc,etc. Time is all over the place in quantum mechanics, implicitly and explicitly.

-Will

[Pyrotex]

...Chaos theory proves determinism....

Linda,

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on that statement. It's just the opposite. See:

http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/

[MagnetMan]

Which means that God must reappear and disappear almost instantaneously at every point in space, very much like quantum virtual particles. This is all very good and all, except that such QVP's are inherently unable to perform any "work". So, we are once more led to the unalterable conclusion that if God exists, he is impotent.

 

I am profoundly envious of particle phsyicist's grasp of QM. At my late stage of life I doubt if my rapidly deteriorating cells can still absorb enough data to grasp more than I already know - so I can only work from an intuitive insight as to what the atomic radiations that express my consciousness are telling me.

 

They are telling me that all the atomic associations that make up my body, each organ, skeleton, brain etc. have come together in a collective consciousness that I know as a SELF separate from other selfs. (Though i have come to realize that this separation is an illusion) Anyway, this illusory self is able to perform "work'.

 

The purpose of that work is to experience life as much as possible; to try to excell in whatever I attempt, and also try to grasp its underlying purpose. So it is that I see atomic associations at 'work' all around me. I realize that a single atom is inherently helpless - that only via association does it gain existential meaning.

 

This insight allows me see the values of larger human associations; of family, clan, nation, and a large global society - all at 'work', all trying to excel and all trying to understand the underlying meaning of existence.

 

All this atomic activity tells me that God is not impotent.

[Pyrotex]

I am profoundly envious of particle phsyicist's grasp of QM. ...They are telling me that all the atomic associations that make up my body, each organ, skeleton, brain etc. have come together in a collective consciousness that I know as a SELF separate from other selfs... .

Your ability to anthopomorphize atoms, laws, organs, cells and other aspects of the universe is almost but not quite enviable. :phones:

[MagnetMan]

Your ability to anthopomorphize atoms, laws, organs, cells and other aspects of the universe is almost but not quite enviable. :cup:

The ability of scientists to quantify and distinquish between the atomic nature of their own conscuiousness and the atomic behavior they are observing and refuse to accept that it just might be universal astonishes me.

[Pyrotex]

The ability of scientists to quantify and distinquish between the atomic nature of their own conscuiousness and the atomic behavior they are observing and refuse to accept that it just might be universal astonishes me.

Your ability to post such statements as "{consciousness} just might be universal" -- with a straight face, astonishes me. I give you credit for more "consciousness" than that.

[MagnetMan]

Your ability to post such statements as "{consciousness} just might be universal" -- with a straight face, astonishes me. I give you credit for more "consciousness" than that.

 

I respect the need to maintain scientific integrity. Could you give me an alternative explanation (other than an atomic origination as I maintain) as to how consciousness came into being?

[Pyrotex]

I respect the need to maintain scientific integrity. Could you give me an alternative explanation (other than an atomic origination as I maintain) as to how consciousness came into being?

1. Your "atomic origination" was a poetic bowl of word stew, but it explained nothing.

2. You cannot be trusted with that information until you give adequate proof of your security clearance.