Wtf?

[Jay-qu]

When time flies

[Qfwfq]

Worse Trouble Follows...

[Jay-qu]

Widen The Field

[InfiniteNow]

As far as I am concirned both science and spirituality can drag you down a path towards insanity. That is if you take in one or the other as a belief and take it too far.

And for some... there's not a lot of dragging... kicking nor screaming... going on. Some feel very natural on cliffs of insanity, and blaming science or spirituality for their tumult would be both inappropriate and inaccurate.

[Racoon]

When Tinkerbell Fornicates...

 

Add my cat to the list of those offended Boerseun!

Her name is Tinkerbell!! :)

And I'm sure she'd love a little Forn, but she's been spayed..:)

 

 

When Telemarketers Flatulate

 

White Trash Floozy.

:doh:

[Jay-qu]

Will They Forget..

[Boerseun]

I think we're drifting ever so slightly off topic now. Why The Fuss, I hear you say. Well, Truly, Frankly, I don't care - but for the fact that I think my original question is still very relevant. But shaking the applecart on this is probably Wishful Thinking, Fred. Wasn't That Funny?

[Qfwfq]

There's more to it than just religion Boerseun.

 

Do you think all the trouble in Ulster was just for religion? That's just one small example....

[Boerseun]

There's more to it than just religion Boerseun.

 

Do you think all the trouble in Ulster was just for religion? That's just one small example....

I see your point, Qfwfq - but the way I see it, the troubles in Ulster can be boiled down to a kind of a philosophical chauvinism, dontcha think?

[Turtle]

I think we're drifting ever so slightly off topic now....

 

___Drifting back on topic, by what logical reasoning do people read books by old dead guys (not gals I note) about magical events & incorporate those fairy tales into their everyday actions?

___Why not then logically run your life by astrology, or rely on an 1800's medical text, or write in Roman numerals, or seek the oracle at Delphi, or ameliorate a famine by chopping some "volunteer's" heart out at a public ceremony?:)

[Boerseun]

___Drifting back on topic, by what logical reasoning do people read books by old dead guys (not gals I note) about magical events & incorporate those fairy tales into their everyday actions?

___Why not then logically run your life by astrology, or rely on an 1800's medical text, or write in Roman numerals, or seek the oracle at Delphi, or ameliorate a famine by chopping some "volunteer's" heart out at a public ceremony?:)

This is me... a mere humble Boerseun who simply can't agree with you more!

[Jay-qu]

Maybe because of tradition? and for one tradition is the stupidest reason to do anything! dont do something just because your parents or other people before you have, make up your own mind about it

 

P.S im not talking about traditions like going to mums house on christmas night or things like that, they have other reasons.

[Qfwfq]

I see your point, Qfwfq - but the way I see it, the troubles in Ulster can be boiled down to a kind of a philosophical chauvinism, dontcha think?

So that's "a kind of a philosophical chauvinism" but the case of middle eastern affairs isn't? Why is one, and why isn't the other? I'm not so sure you get the whole point. I call it racism.

 

The way I see it, there's more to it than religion and the current trouble is more complicated and far more serious. Remember the powder keg...

[Boerseun]

So that's "a kind of a philosophical chauvinism" but the case of middle eastern affairs isn't? Why is one, and why isn't the other? I'm not so sure you get the whole point. I call it racism.

 

The way I see it, there's more to it than religion and the current trouble is more complicated and far more serious. Remember the powder keg...

I agree with you, up to a point.

 

In Ulster, the battle is between two different angles on the same basic philosophy. They're all Christians, but some are Catholics, and some are Protestants. It's like saying we can't make up our minds wether we're having chocolate or vanilla ice cream. It's still ice cream, but the flavours differ.

 

The problem in the mid East, is that the battle now is about two completely different philosophies, not simply different flavours. In other words, the difference is fundamental, and mutually exclusive.

 

Yes - both can be seen as philosophical chauvinisms, and I think the severity of the conflict could be judged on the depth of the chasm between them - and the difference between Islam and Christianity goes straight down to the bedrock; whilst that between Catholicism and Protestantism goes, say, only halfway down.

 

But the very bottom, absolute bottom line, in my honest, humble and non-informed view, is that ANY fundamental philosophy based on fairytales and hearsay of any kind, is crucially, fundamentally, terminally flawed, and should have no place in a post-superstitious, post-illiterate, post-ignorant world.

[Qfwfq]

There's less difference than you appear to think Boerseun between Islam and Christianity but I suppose you don't care in the least. It wasn't the point of my question.

 

I still see it having much to do with ethnic or racial differences that are in correlation with the religious differences, and these are differences between politically opposite sides. Religion in such cases becomes just like the colour of shirt that identifies each side. That was the point of my question.

 

The cartoons simply gave terrorists a further excuse to rouse up more trouble and all the insistence over free speech only made it worse. People should distinguish the purpose when sticking up for free speech, racism isn't a good purpose and I'm not sure Voltaire would have defended it. There has been enough trouble before the cartoons. It is't helpful to increase mistrust and hatred against Muslims, most of them aren't terrorists and don't like being equated with them. I suspect the mobs were angry for this reason and for the racist attitude behind the publishing, more than for the offence against religion. Somewhat paradoxically the terrorist orgs made them become violent. Witnesses have said that when the embassies were torched in Syria, the crowds were driven by guys with radios. It isn't hard to stir up an angry mob and make it become violent.

[Boerseun]

... but I suppose you don't care in the least.

Pretty right on that score.

If you read my first post in this thread, you'll notice that I'm not racist or 'anti' Islam in the least. I discriminate equally across all religious lines. All religion, Islam AND Christianity, is bunk. You're the one who's turning this into a racial thing implying 'we' are treating the Muslims on racial lines. I'm saying regardless of race, if you believe in fairy tales, you shouldn't be running my world. You could be Osama Bin Laden or George Bush, if your public policy has anything to do with religion, I don't want you in a position of power in my world.

I still see it having much to do with ethnic or racial differences that are in correlation with the religious differences, and these are differences between politically opposite sides. Religion in such cases becomes just like the colour of shirt that identifies each side. That was the point of my question.

Valid in certain cases, but not in this case. Read the first post again.

It is't helpful to increase mistrust and hatred against Muslims, most of them aren't terrorists and don't like being equated with them.

Granted, most of them are not terrorists. But I can tell you what ALL of them are, and what ALL members of ALL other contending religions are:

 

Superstitious individuals willing to act according to ancient writings of dubious origins in the hope that someday, somehow, they will 'survive' the ultimate journey, namely death. They will be 'rewarded' for their life or pious superstitious belief, much in the same way that Thor and his mates in Valhalla will have a piss-up with you and reward you with a few virgins if you were a brave warrior. Don't tell me the old Norse gods are any more or less true than Christianity and/or Islam.

I suspect the mobs were angry for this reason and for the racist attitude behind the publishing, more than for the offence against religion. Somewhat paradoxically the terrorist orgs made them become violent. Witnesses have said that when the embassies were torched in Syria, the crowds were driven by guys with radios. It isn't hard to stir up an angry mob and make it become violent.

Be that as it may - racism might be behind it or not, my point in this thread has nothing to do with the cartoons. All I'm saying is that I want to believe that my public figures and leaders are rational men. Rational men will discount fairytales and superstition for what it is. We, as a species, have walked on the moon, and still we believe that there is life after death. Our childhood fears of death are carried with us to the grave, slightly tempered by our belief that death is not the end. This constant fear of death creates a permanent paranoia which is successfully exploited by organised religions in order for you to donate money to this all-powerful, omnipotent, omni-present deity that for some reason seems to always run out of pocket change on Sundays.

 

Once you understand death for what it is, the final point in your journey as a consciousness in this universe, and you accept the fact that you can't outrun it, you will lose your fear for it. And once you lose your fear of death, religion becomes, well, pretty much pointless.

[Qfwfq]

Clarity first, as there seems to be misunderstanding. I did not mean to call you, Boerseun, a racist.

 

What I got from this thread was that you can't understand such a wave of riots being caused by cartoons against a religion. I've been trying to point out the reasons behind the riots, more complicated than many people seem to realize. Neither am I for religion being a basis for law but there's a difference between saying a state should be secular and saying one should be free to offend, to rouse up hatred etc. There is also a difference between insulting someone's imaginary friend and insulting them. Western Christians keep being taught to think of Muslims as savages and of Islam as an evil system of belief, creating ethnic barriers to suit the purposes of international politics. How different is this from Islam being abused by the other side, against Israel and those who back it? I'm sure you'll see the common points.

 

People who aren't terrorists don't like being indiscriminately labelled as such. The terrorism itself, however unjust, is a reaction to situations created by recent history. There are many things to take into account before judging.

 

If you are rational, you should be able to see the point of what I say. I think however that you are failing to understand that the human race is not the way you would like, just because some of us are scientific and we have travelled in space. Many scientific people are religious and see it the other way around. Many others find more reason to believe in a religion than they do to "belive" in the "teachings" of science and will refuse to see your rationality as being superior to theirs. Accept it. I avoid voting for the pro-religious leaders but others would gladly have a Catholic government here.