What will be the changes if we move from 3rd dimension level to 4rth dimension level

[TeleMad]

Truth: We all know on earth the ball and feather will fall at different rates because spacetime is flat.

 

What?

 

1) The feather falls more slowly because of air resistance.

 

2) Here at Earth spacetime is warped, whether or not we can directly notice it. After all, it is the warping of spacetime by the mass of the Earth that causes the bowling ball and feather to falll.

[TeleMad]

UncleMartin: Particles have been reportedly observed in two locations simultaneously(only two?).

 

Nitpick. At least from what I've read on this, the particles weren't observed in two positions simultaneously.

 

Scientists can setup conditions such that the wave equations that describe a particle give it a 50% probability of being at point X and a 50% probability of being at point Y. But as soon as an observation is done, such as looking at position X to see if the particle is there, the wave function collapses to a single value and the probability becomes 100% that it is either there or isn't. The act of observing causes the system to go from a superposition state to a definite state. And if the experiment is repeated 100 times, with the exact same conditions, roughly 50% of the time the particle will be found at X and roughly 50% of the time it will be found at Y. So when someone does the experiment one time, where is the particle? One could say it was in both places at once, until an observation was made that forced to be at only one.

[TeleMad]

Truth: Do you know what I mean by flat space/time?

 

Do you know what scientists mean by flat spacetime? Do you know what YOU mean? Can you give a simple definition, sticking to just that concept?

 

Truth: Only on the earth can an object travel in a straight line.

 

No.

 

1) Einstein's theory of General Relativity tells us that spacetime is deformed here on Earth because of Earth's mass. So technically, object's aren't traveling in true straight lines here on Earth, but rather in geodesics that are close to being true straight lines. And even this depends upon the distance the object travels...the longer the path, the less truly straight that path is.

 

2) Iif one were to go out into deep intergalactic space and give an feather a small push it would go off in a straight line at constant speed, and would continue to do so until some external force acted upon it. (Any nitpicks about there being SOME gravitational distortion of spacetime way out there because gravity's reach is infinite fail since the degree of deformation of spacetime in intergalactic space is astronomically smaller than it is here, right next to the massive Earth).

 

 

Truth: Time is an atomic phenomenon not a spacial one like the one we take for granted.Time is what came into existence first then space and then ...

 

Says who? Space and time both came into existence at the instant of the Big Bang. Even if we assume that our Universe is one of many and that some of those others predated ours - in order to make time exist before the Big Bang - then space also must have existed then, or else how could there be other universes?

[Truth]

What i am saying is so simply, when you walk the earth do you see or feel the curvature of the earth?Of course not ,bacause even though the earth is round you dont feel or see curvature because spacetime is flat.Common sense gentleman.I know its rare here,you can do it!How old are you guys about 15years old.Dont take every word literally. The Straight line is an example of human perceptiongentlemen it is a mathematical concept.Im just too smart for you guys.Ive read some of your so called ideas on gravity.Einstein was able to achieve greatness because his ideas were very simple and insightful,notice my ideas on gravity.there are no comment about it because it makes just to much sense.Good Will Hunting.

[GAHD]

Originally posted by: Truth

What i am saying is so simply, when you walk the earth do you see or feel the curvature of the earth?Of course not ,bacause even though the earth is round you dont feel or see curvature because spacetime is flat.Common sense gentleman.

From my understanding of it, the exact opposite is true. I see a horizon, I don't see an infinate streatch of receading plain, thus I 'do' see the curvature of the planet. The generally accepted pricipal is that space time is curved in the presence of matter, though I personally say space is curved by matter and time is not a dimension but rather the measured interactions of the universe(again nitpics can occur, but 'I' have never cared, time does not have t be a dimension).

 

 

I know its rare here,you can do it! How old are you guys about 15years old.

Yeah, only because all the religios one-shots show up, and little wannabe scientists who don't own a microscope, or any other form of scientific instruments, try and come up with potluck theories that explain everything.

Ooh, and I'm quite a bit older than 15 actually, but you obviously don't have the 'common sense' to check...

 

Dont take every word literally. The Straight line is an example of human perception gentlemen it is a mathematical concept.

mathematical concept and human perception are mutually exclusive terms.

 

Im just too smart for you guys.Ive read some of your so called ideas on gravity.Einstein was able to achieve greatness because his ideas were very simple and insightful,

I fully agree, I also point to Albert's own work when people make claims for time dilation; his work took into account that ALL of our means of detection rely on light, and so appearances of time dilation occur. This is often misinterprited and has evolved into several branches of theoretical science tha all agree about results but disagree about method.

But this isn't on topic so I'll cut that rant short.

 

notice my ideas on gravity.there are no comment about it because it makes just to much sense.Good Will Hunting.

I fail to understand tha reference, maby if I'd spent more time in the theatre instead of reading, I would understand. I have noticed your ideas, and I also notice some major flaws. Pehapse your skill as a word-smith needs some work as you obviously cannot impart thease ideas to 'make so much sense' to anyone other than your self. You may begin by providing a list of proofs and extrapolations based on the proofs. You might also try a thesaurus and a grammer dictionary so your words cease being contradictory and become cohesive.

 

Again this is off topic, so I will attempt to rectify; The 4th dimension, if there is one would most likely be the dimension on the other side of our 'membrane'.

To further explain I will define 'membrane'; think of a cup of coffie, or a bowl of soup. Think of the residue that coagulates on the surface of those liquids when they are left for extended periods of time. This 'floating stuff' forms a membrane. now take this membrain idea and consider that the membrane is relatively flat, in space the membrane would cover a spherical ball of the liquid however so this is a better example. What you have envisioned is a 3 dimensional model of a 4 dimensional universe.

Taking this to a further level you could conceive of the air above the coffie&cup as a 5th dimension.

 

Before I go father with this I will await replies as I'm shure there will be a necessary correction of this information transfer.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Truth

What i am saying is so simply, when you walk the earth do you see or feel the curvature of the earth?Of course not ,

Er, where on earth do you live? I mean that both ways!

 

The curvature of the earth is obvious to anyone that does not live there entire life in a ravine or cave.

 

Perhaps you might want to visit

 

"Can the curvature of the Earth only be seen from outer space?

...

A third way to see that the Earth is a sphere is to look at how objects in the distance "disappear" as you get farther away."

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question65.htm

</a>

 

or

"Re: AT WHAT POINT ABOVE THE EARTH'S SURFACE DOES IT'S CURVATURE BECOME APPARENT

...

Actually, the Earth's curvature is apparent from ground level!"

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/oct99/940523891.As.r.html

</a>

bacause even though the earth is round you dont feel or see curvature because spacetime is flat.Common sense gentleman.

Yes, thank you, because of "COMMON SENSE", and the [/i]"simple"[/i] fact that we CAN see the curvature of the earth, from the surface of the earth, it is obvious that your concept of flat space/time is bogus.

I know its rare here,you can do it! How old are you guys about 15years old.

Your digging yourself a deeper hole. If we are 15, and your IGNORANT of things we 15 year olds KNOW, where does that put you? How are todays Pampers?

Im just too smart for you guys.

Yep, I guess you are!

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: Truth

What i am saying is so simply, when you walk the earth do you see or feel the curvature of the earth?Of course not ,bacause even though the earth is round you dont feel or see curvature because spacetime is flat.Common sense gentleman.I know its rare here,you can do it! How old are you guys about 15years old.Dont take every word literally. The Straight line is an example of human perception gentlemen it is a mathematical concept.Im just too smart for you guys.Ive read some of your so called ideas on gravity.Einstein  was able to achieve greatness because his ideas were very simple and insightful,notice my ideas on gravity.there are no comment about it because it makes just to much sense.Good Will Hunting.

 

Truth,

 

This post is full of outrageous claims with zero evidence to support them. When we first discussed your thoughts it appeared that you had some potential, now it looks like you are backsliding a bit. Arrogant, condescending remarks are not going to help anyone here.

 

You believe that you have some information or knowledge that will benefit us, I think we have some facts that you may enjoy learning. I suggest that you pick one topic that you feel strongly about and concentrate on proving that.

 

Remember, in this forum we require evidence. We expect an intelligent level of discourse from all members. I would like to continue our discussion from the previous page, you've yet to answer my last post to you. Freethinker, TeleMad and GAHD also replied to your posts. You have alot of answers to come up with.

[TeleMad]

Truth: What i am saying is so simply, when you walk the earth do you see or feel the curvature of the earth?Of course not ,bacause even though the earth is round you dont feel or see curvature because spacetime is flat.

 

I am going to agree with you on part of that. I think better would have been for you to say something such as, "Take a piece of paper, place if on a table, and use a ruler to draw a line on it...do you see or feel the curvature of the Earth? No, you don't, because spacetime is flat" That would eliminate the possibiity of looking to the horizon as doing so is outside the bounds of the system under discussion.

 

However, even then we would be fooled, technically. We would PERCEIVE the line to be perfectly straight because of the limited spatial extent of the object. If we had a 1,000-mile-long table, ruler, and paper, and tried to draw a straight line on it as before, then we would be able to notice the curvature of Earth.

 

Your statements have been confusing. But to try to hit what you are talking about - but being unsure what you are talking about - let me add something else. Curved spacetime appears flat when viewed on small enough scales. This is one reason we can't determine the overall geometry of the Universe. Methods to detect whether a smooth surface is flat or curved are known. For example, take three points to make a triangle, then examine the center. If the center is higher than the vertices then the surface has positive curvature; if the center is lower than the vertices then the surface has negative curvature; if the center is in line with the vertices then the surface is flat. But how can we do this for our Universe? We can only do it on small scales - relative to the Universe, very small scales. So the fact that the results suggest the geometry of the Universe is flat is inconclusive. If we quadrupled the distance between the vertices, who's to say that we wouldn't then note an elevation (positive or negative) for the center?

 

You still need to make clear whay YOU mean by flat spacetime. Are you talking about the overall geometry of the Universe? In that case, I believe many findings are pointing towards its being flat. But your statements are confusing: what does creating one atom in two places have to do with the overall geometry of the Universe? what does a feather falling slower than a bowling ball have to do with the overall geometry of the Universe being flat?

[Truth]

Have any of you numb skulls ever heard of the story of in the past where they thought the earth was flat.Why do you think they thought that.Flat spacetime,curved spacetime are mathematical concepts.Einstein used the curved spacetime mathematical concept or model to explain to his peers so they would understand him, spacetime isnt literally curved dumb dumbsthepath of an object iscurved or in other words a falling effect.When you throw a baseball its path is that of a curve because its falling and in motion.Einstein used the example of curved spacetime around a object such as a planet to show that an object is really falling and gives the appearance of a curved path,because motion is applied.Now numb skulls when you take a earthly walk the path is generally a flat one(mathematically) gentlemen.Straight lines, Curved lines, Flat,Round are mathematical concepts and anyone that has any common sense knows this.GOOD WILL HUNTING

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: Truth

Have any of you numb skulls ever heard of the story of in the past where they thought the earth was flat.Why do you think they thought that.Flat spacetime,curved spacetime are mathematical concepts.Einstein used the curved spacetime mathematical concept or model to explain to his peers so they would understand him, spacetime isnt literally curved dumb dumbs its path is curved or in other words a falling effect.When you throw a baseball its path is that of a curve because its falling and in motion.Einstein used the example of curved spacetime around a object such as a planet to show that an object is really falling and gives the appearance of a curved path,because motion is applied.Now numb skulls when you take a earthly walk the path is generally a flat one(mathematically) gentlemen.Straight lines, Curved lines, Flat,Round are mathematical concepts and anyone that has any common sense knows this.GOOD WILL HUNTING

 

Have you read anything I or anyone else has posted? I will let ignorance go for a bit, not indefinitely. Name calling is totally unacceptable. You have been warned. Go back and carefully read this thread all the way through. Then please read the FAQ page for the forum rules. If you cannot conduct yourself in an appropriate manner you will find that you are no longer welcome here.

[Freethinker]

Listen Truth, you are making yourself look worse with each post. Perhaps you are a younger person and not used to jumping into discussions at this level.

 

Rather than pretending to know it all, and then making yourself look worse by endlessly defending your errors, admit you need or at least want to learn. From what you have posted, you could stand to learn a lot from a number of people here. They'd love to help. But we will not allow bad science to go unchallenged here.

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: Truth

Have any of you numb skulls ever heard of the story of in the past where they thought the earth was flat.

 

1) "numb skulls" is a term which is quite efficient if you want to drag any discussion down to a flame war. Please refrain from using such terms here. It is in violation of our FAQ (which you should read). If you use it - or other similar terms - you can forget about being a member of these forums (I see now that others are telling you the same so take a hint).

 

2) That people thought the Earth was flat is a misconception. There is no evidence that people believed the Earth to be flat in the past. This notion appeared some time in the previous century. This has been discussed before in these forums.

 

There is a lot of content about the flat earth myth on the web - here is one:

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/flat_earth_myth.html

 

It has several chapters on how the myth appeared, what is was based on, the problems of faith, historic views etc.

 

GOOD WILL HUNTING

 

You are obviously nothing like him - he did not try to show off his skills to everyone and in fact he knew what he was doing. You do not seem to have grasped the concept of space-time.

 

The others here are trying to discuss with you but you resort to name-calling and elusive theories which you fail to explain. I siggest you start stating your points clearly instead of wasting our time any more.

 

Your writing appear confused and I fail to see what you are trying to convey.

 

Tormod

[Truth]

The minds in here are too weak,now there is no proof they thought the earth was flat.I know its tough gentlemen,but everyone that has common sense knows the story.I can only shake my head that reality escapes the group thinking.If you read the bible do you think the stories in them were past down verbally first before they were written down.All Im reading is a repeat of someone elses information.Whats the person name that told you that they didnt think the earth was flat. Are you guys in high school?You guys cant even think for yourselves.You all probably hate George Bush because that is the prevailing thought.A war?Im just too smart for the (gang).You slow learners do know that they have proven that the universe is( flat) gentlemen not open or closed.Now what do you think they mean when they say flat?This is not real science this is a forum for people who just repeat other peoples ideas.Lets take another persons article and post it as if it is fact.Iveseen the repeats of someoneelses material not there own.The Question was asked what is gravity?Instead of sticking to the subject, time dilation was mentioned and a bunch of other tangents.And the reason for that is because you dont understand the concepts behind gravity.First you must understand the concept before you go into detail.Spacetime is another one.Distance/time.Why does a clock tick slower on earth than in outerspace?Because spacetime is flat on earth.This has already been proven by Einstein.Common sense gentlemen!

[Freethinker]

Truth, I will guess this is your last warning. You have shown you are incapable of rational discourse. You have been offered an olive branch by a number of people here and want to use it to jab us in the eye.

 

If your next post does not show a reasonable and reasoned approach, if you can not even begin to respond to the questions asked, you will be removed from this site. If all you have to offer is absurd assertions and responses that squirm from one claim to another instead of providing support for earlier claims, if you can not provide valid support for claims, you have no business bothering those of us interested in intellectually honest scientific and philosophical discourse.

 

Your current style of posts will not be missed.

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: Truth

This is not real science this is a forum for people who just repeat other peoples ideas.Lets take another persons article and post it as if it is fact.

 

Show me an example of such a post, please.

 

Tormod

[Truth]

Make valid support for claims just like you guys.Majority of your ideas are other people ideas not your own.Gravity for instants there wasnt any thing there that would make me ponder maybe he or she is correct.But I know VALIDITY.Which im sorry isnt here.This should be a forum for open discussion gentlemen not (we)Freethinker and whomever decides what a proof is because he cannot grasp the concepts.You can disagree,thats fine but to speak as if anyone of you knows the internal works of a red giant your fooling yourselfs.The information is somebody elses theories gentlemen.So much information can be collected by examining the light spectrum of a star.The point I am making here is the conversation here is very limited,its only einstein ideas when the subject of physics is discussed,einstein isnt the only person who has( theories) out there,but when you cannot deal with the countless ideas thats out there its not my problem.Peter Lynds for example:I am quite sure none of you has read his work personally.But what does the intellectual honest do, they search out a paper on the internet in opposition to the presenter and try to present it as fact.Proofs gentleman takes time and in most cases even years.Einstein, for example. Since he is so loved.I know, intellectual honesty, gentlemen.People who are searching for trurth will respond to it(truth) when mentioned.The only response here is the group doesnt agree or doesnt comprehend the point.In my ideas there are many examples because with out examples you lose credibility gentlemen.Im sorry there isnt any credibility here.In most of the work I have read on this site there arent any examples sited.Einstein in his special relativity gives many examples, such as, what an observer would see, because without it there isnt any credibility.I have read some ofTormods work and I dont agree with everthing,but there are examples in his work, which gives him credibility.He might drift on the subject matterbut dont we all.GOOD WILL HUNTING.Honesty=Credibility=Example FREETHINKERGET YOUR ACT TOGETHER.

[Tormod]

Truth, you keep telling us that we have no backing for our ideas, that they are based on other people's theories.

 

I have still to see anything from you that resembles a theory. You write short statements and assume they come forth as fact. When we ask you for an explanation or suggest anything you call that "disagreement". Then you spend a lot of time bashing us. That is very far removed from the scientific method.

 

We must expect people to be able to use and build upon others' ideas and hypotheses. That is how science - and any other area - develops. Eventually what comes out is a theory which can be tested and eventually falsified.

 

Well, this is a "discussion forum". We discuss things. We don't want to agree upon something, we want to understand it.

 

Follow your own train of though ("Honesty=Credibility=Example") and give us some credible examples - with explanations of why they are valid theories. Then we might get somewhere.

 

Tormod