Edge Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Hi, everyone. I'm new here. I saw this forum for the first time on a thread about Evolution and Intelligent Design, you know, the classic debate. Anyway, here's something I can't understand or figure out: math. We all know how important math is on the world, not arguing that. However, there are people that think that we discovered the laws of math, while others say that we created them (kinda like a language). There is also debate about if it's really a science or not? So, what do you think? Is math something we created and improved, or something that was there just to be discovered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 I think that math is not a science. I also think that it is inherent in nature, and exists whether or not there is somebody to count, as such, it would be 'discovered' rather than 'invented'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 I would agree with pgrmdave. Mathematics are discovered. It is, however, like all tools, not perfect and thus improved upon as we learn more and more and also by applying it to new areas. Relativity and quantum mechanics are two areas which have contributed a lot to the development of modern techniques in math. BTW if your intention is to discuss Intelligent Design, please do so in our Theology forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay-qu Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 yeah i would agree that it is discovered but there are some parts about math that have only come about directly because of us humans. for example we use base 10 as our default system - I assume because we have 10 fingers and 10 toes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockytriton Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 yes math is just a tool, like the rock used as a hammer, we didn't create it, but we did create the idea of using the rock as a hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted November 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Nice replies, people. Now, if it's something that was there to be discovered or figured out, then I guess it could be considered as science, not? I mean, science does not create the laws of nature, it just discovers them. Well, something of the sort. And no, I'm not here to discuss Intelligent Design vs. Evolution vs. That other theory, those debates are mostly endless and with no specific winner... although, I may debate one or two religious topics... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infamous Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 And no, I'm not here to discuss Intelligent Design vs. Evolution vs. That other theory, those debates are mostly endless and with no specific winner... although, I may debate one or two religious topics...Welcome to Hypography Edge; you'll find a discussion involving just about any topic you choose to debte going on here. So let us know your views and opinions. A good start would be for you to read our FAQ page, it details our forum rules and discusses proper behavior. Good to have your interest and participation Edge.....................enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockytriton Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Nice replies, people. Now, if it's something that was there to be discovered or figured out, then I guess it could be considered as science, not? I mean, science does not create the laws of nature, it just discovers them. Well, something of the sort. And no, I'm not here to discuss Intelligent Design vs. Evolution vs. That other theory, those debates are mostly endless and with no specific winner... although, I may debate one or two religious topics... Is a rock science because we didn't create it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Now, if it's something that was there to be discovered or figured out, then I guess it could be considered as science Science, at least good science, follows the scientific meathod, while mathematics does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted November 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Is a rock science because we didn't create it?Let me explain better: Science explains the laws of nature. It discovers them, and explain them. A rock, well, it doesn't try to explain anything. :hihi: Science, at least good science, follows the scientific meathod, while mathematics does not.True, that's where the thing is. Math does not need experimentation to prove it. Math proves itself, on paper of course... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockytriton Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 just like math doesn't explain anything. Math can be used by a scientist to explain something though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigD Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Like most if not all people who are or were once college Math majors, I gave a lot of thought to the question “what is Math”, of which the “discovered or created” question is a significant part. My conclusion then, which I still find true now, is that the most useful definition of Math is that it is formalism. I particularly like the description of formalism in Hofstadter’s Godel, Escher,Bach: that a particular formalism can be viewed simple as a collection of rules from manipulating strings of characters. That is what I believe Math is. By this definition, Math is created. Although it is very useful in describing discovered and discoverable things (eg: the physical universe), it is also useful in describing physically impossible things that, in the usual sense of the word, can never be discovered. Just my opinion, of course, though, having a diploma with “Math” printed on it makes it an arguably an “expert” opinion. :hihi: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelengineer Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 The way I see it, Math is a concept created using our observations of natural phenomenon, so that we can have a standard to base our logic and resoning upon. it is like a tool to explain things we cannot visualize, abstract things like numbers. so basically, there can be different kinds of mathematics, based upon different co-ordinate systems, and different rules. maybe, in another kind of math 2 points cannot be connected in a straight line, etc. i'm sure there are much better examples out there.so, my conclusion is pretty much the same as CraigD ! :hihi: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 I vote for created. Mth is a language used by man and man alone to communicate his observations of nature to others. Natural phenomenon are discovered by man and math is man's creation to explain his discoveries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted November 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 I vote for created. Mth is a language used by man and man alone to communicate his observations of nature to others. Natural phenomenon are discovered by man and math is man's creation to explain his discoveries. Yep, I'm gonna make a poll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigD Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 If you believe in God as Ramanujan (one of my favorite mathematicians) did, you might believe that Math is discovered. Ramanujan, a devout Hindu, unabashedly claimed that he frequently conversed with God (Brahman, in the aspect of Ramanujan’s family goddess, Namagiri), and that these conversations were always in purely mathematical form, without words in any natural language. More, he claimed that God told him that Math was His native language, which He had to translate into the “lesser” languages of non-mathematicians. (From the above wikipedia link) ‘He often said, "An equation for me has no meaning, unless it represents a thought of God."’ Ramanujan repeatedly drove his English colleagues, who tended to be dedicated atheists, crazy, when they asked him how he arrived at a particular, apparently correct but unproven result, and he replied that God had given it to him in a dream. I’m neither a devout theist, nor anywhere near Ramanujan’s mathematical caliber, but at times when I’ve been long and heavy into Math, I recall dreaming in it, some of the most pleasant dreams I’ve ever had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtualmeet Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 I think that math is science that was created by humans to make it easy for them to study nature more in depth. Thus, math is just an universale "language" that we use to formulate nature's laws that was discovered by others sciences like physics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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