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Belief In Reincarnation Among Native North Americans


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#18 A-wal

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 05:57 AM

OK, if that is your world view, I'm not going to argue with you. But yes, the information is lost, the processing is lost and the computer (or brain) does not work as a computer (or mind) if it is turned off.

Of course the information isn't lost, it's stored on the hard drive. A computer has RAM (short term memory), ROM (long term memory) and is power by electrical impulses. Once those electrical impulses stop there's nothing analogous to a consciousness to go anywhere else or simply cease so what point are you actually trying to make?

 

Do you really think consciousness exists in some place that is separate from the physical brain?

Mechanical processes of the brain, the subjective experience of consciousness. Do you honestly not see how separated those two things really are as concepts?

Science assumes that the first is fundamental and that it leads to the second but this is obviously absurd. Physical reality is only known through conscious perception, without that the universe has none of the properties that we perceive because they'd be no perceiver.

 

BTW: Thankyou for being so polite and respectful... It's big of you... It's a very mature attitude to have.. Makes me think you are a mature and respectful and considerate person.... /S

Thank you for trying to show that consciousness is somehow caused by the physical processes of the brain by using the example of a computer that stores its information when the physical processes stop and does even have consciousness to begin with. Arguments like that really give me an incentive to write polite and respectful counterarguments.



#19 Flummoxed

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 10:32 AM

Reincarnation doesn't happen, all religions are false when you die your brain rots and the electrical charges that make up your mind stop. There is no soul, no god, nor any sort of transfer of these. You return to nothing just as you were before you were born.

 

Ummmmh > information > cause and effect >> is nothing to do with religion. 

 

First define your god and soul, most religions dont cut the mustard. 

 

How about the universe is god, we are part of that universe, and part of that god. When our bodies die every last part of us is recycled. No information is ever lost. Even the electrical functions of our brains radiate at c, the signals do not cease to exist they just attenuate and are lost in the background radiation, where does (ye olde world) religion come into this.

 

Our behavior today is based on passed events/circumstances.  


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#20 Flummoxed

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 10:34 AM

Of course the information isn't lost, it's stored on the hard drive. A computer has RAM (short term memory), ROM (long term memory) and is power by electrical impulses. Once those electrical impulses stop there's nothing analogous to a consciousness to go anywhere else or simply cease so what point are you actually trying to make?

 

 

You lost me, do you buy into radio consciousness or maybe orch-or theory MAYBE! universal consciousness.



#21 A-wal

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 10:59 AM

Of course the information isn't lost, it's stored on the hard drive. A computer has RAM (short term memory), ROM (long term memory) and is power by electrical impulses. Once those electrical impulses stop there's nothing analogous to a consciousness to go anywhere else or simply cease so what point are you actually trying to make?

You lost me, do you buy into radio consciousness or maybe orch-or theory MAYBE! universal consciousness.

I didn't use the computer analogy, that was Mutex. My point was that the analogy doesn't work because for one thing computers aren't conscious and ignoring that the analogy still doesn't work in the way Mutex would like it to because the information isn't lost when the computer is switched off. Even if computers were somehow conscious that would still leave the same question of how the physical processes of the computer could possibly create subjective experience. They obviously can't and it's moronic to think that they could because physical mechanics and subject experience are entirely different things, like gravitational dynamics and Roman history but even more so.


Radio consciousness seems to make intuitive and rational sense, at least to me. Universal consciousness is interesting when you start thinking of the universe as fractal and look at how it's a perfect match for a brain's neural network at large scales. Fractal geometry for the universe is an amazing thought, it would mean consciousness itself is fractal and each one that appears separate would literally contain all others. Trippy stuff but the point isn't whether any of this is true, it's that the materialist explanation isn't, it's completely batshit. In fact it doesn't even provide any kind of explanation, it just gives a list of Roman emperors and then says that's how gravitational dynamics work.


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#22 VictorMedvil

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 11:44 AM

I didn't use the computer analogy, that was Mutex. My point was that the analogy doesn't work because for one thing computers aren't conscious and ignoring that the analogy still doesn't work in the way Mutex would like it to because the information isn't lost when the computer is switched off. Even if computers were somehow conscious that would still leave the same question of how the physical processes of the computer could possibly create subjective experience. They obviously can't and it's moronic to think that they could because physical mechanics and subject experience are entirely different things, like gravitational dynamics and Roman history but even more so.


Radio consciousness seems to make intuitive and rational sense, at least to me. Universal consciousness is interesting when you start thinking of the universe as fractal and look at how it's a perfect match for a brain's neural network at large scales. Fractal geometry for the universe is an amazing thought, it would mean consciousness itself is fractal and each one that appears separate would literally contain all others. Trippy stuff but the point isn't whether any of this is true, it's that the materialist explanation isn't, it's completely batshit. In fact it doesn't even provide any kind of explanation, it just gives a list of Roman emperors and then says that's how gravitational dynamics work.

 

You lost me, do you buy into radio consciousness or maybe orch-or theory MAYBE! universal consciousness.

False Religious belief.... ewww , whatever construct of electric flows in a organic computer. I thought you said you didn't believe in religion. Mutex's relation was wrong in the fact that everytime you sleep parts of your brain shut off the analogy would be closer to computer parts breaking and unable to process information anymore when you die without a replacement part as neurons do not divide after they stop being stem cells when you are very young still inside your mom. You rot in the ground and turn into nothingness, none of this false spiritual bullshit just like the computer gets taken to the junk yard.


Edited by VictorMedvil, 12 July 2020 - 11:48 AM.


#23 A-wal

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 11:48 AM

False Religious belief.... ewww , whatever construct of electric flows in a organic computer.

Not even a belief at all so certainly not a religious one.

You seem to have a complete lack of a grasp of context, I'm not sure if this a symptom of a lack of intelligence or of just being a troll.

 

I don't know how consciousness works, that's what makes for such interesting idle speculation.

 

So you believe that consciousness is a construct of electricity then? Okay. :) Care to elaborate of that?



#24 VictorMedvil

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 11:53 AM

Not even a belief at all so certainly not a religious one.

You seem to have a complete lack of a grasp of context, I'm not sure if this a symptom of a lack of intelligence or of just being a troll.

 

I don't know how consciousness works, that's what makes for such interesting idle speculation.

 

So you believe that consciousness is a construct of electricity then? Okay. :) Care to elaborate of that?

In the same way that electric flows can give rise to information in a computer the concept is the same for the brain, the neurotransmitters and electric flows give rise to information. The information gives rise to things like artificial intelligence and consciousness through complex natural and human programming in the computer or brain. Basically it is just electrical signals flowing through circuits, which gives rise to information then intelligence, this is true for any silicon or carbon substrate.


Edited by VictorMedvil, 12 July 2020 - 11:55 AM.


#25 A-wal

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 11:54 AM

Mutex's relation was wrong in the fact that everytime you sleep parts of your brain shut off the analogy would be closer to computer parts breaking and unable to process information anymore when you die without a replacement part as neurons do not divide after they stop being stem cells when you are very young still inside your mom.

It was far more wrong due to the simple fact that computers aren't conscious.

 

You rot in the ground and turn into nothingness, none of this false spiritual bullshit just like the computer gets taken to the junk yard.

You should be well aware that nothing turns into nothingness. One of the most basic laws of physics is that nothing is ever created or destroyed. Whether consciousness can in fact be completely destroyed depends on whether or not you belive that consciousness is governened by known physical laws. If you think it is then it certainly isn't destroyed. If you think it isn't then we have no way of really knowing anything about it other than it obviously isn't simply the result of physical processes. You can't have it both ways dipshit.


Edited by A-wal, 12 July 2020 - 11:59 AM.


#26 A-wal

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 11:57 AM

In the same way that electric flows can give rise to information in a computer the concept is the same for the brain, the neurotransmitters and electric flows give rise to information. The information gives rise to things like artificial intelligence and consciousness through complex natural and human programming in the computer or brain. Basically it is just electrical signals flowing through circuits, which gives rise to information then intelligence, this is true for any silicon or carbon substrate.

This is absolute nonsense that isn't supported by a single shread of scientific anything!

You're seriously suggesting that AI is the same thing as subjective conscious experience? :rofl:


Edited by A-wal, 12 July 2020 - 11:57 AM.


#27 VictorMedvil

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 11:57 AM

It was far more wrong due to the simple fact that computers aren't conscious.

 

You should be well aware that nothing turns into nothingness. One of the most basic laws of physics is that nothing is ever created or destroyed. Whether consciousness can in fact be completely destroyed depends on whether or not you belive that consciousness is governened by knownphysical laws. If you think it is then it certainly isn't destroyed. If you think it isn't then we have know way of really knowing anything about it other thanit obviously isn't simplythe result of physical processes. You can't have it both ways dipshit.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed that says nothing about the organization of charges(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy) that govern the information in a computer or brain once it is destroyed.


Edited by VictorMedvil, 12 July 2020 - 12:00 PM.


#28 VictorMedvil

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 11:58 AM

This is absolute nonsense that isn't supported by a single shread of scientific anything!

You're seriously suggesting that AI is the same thing as subjective conscious experience? :rofl:

Conciousness is no more than reacting the stimuli from information given, A.I. can achieve the same thing.

 


Edited by VictorMedvil, 12 July 2020 - 12:02 PM.


#29 A-wal

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 12:04 PM

Energy cannot be created or destroyed that says nothing about the organization of charges(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy) that govern the information in a computer or brain once it is destroyed.

Oh right so now you're saying that consciousness isn't the charges themselves, it's the organisation of those charges. So consciousness exists because, er... organisation is conscious? Yep, Roman history to explain gravitational dynamics!

 

Conciousness is no more than reacting the stimuli from information given, A.I. can achieve the same thing.

AI isn't conscious! You complete silly nincompoop!


Edited by A-wal, 12 July 2020 - 12:09 PM.


#30 montgomery

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 12:05 PM

I think it may be crazier to think we only live one time and that is the end forever and ever. I thought this article was very interesting. Many people believe that you only live once so I don't blame you for thinking that. I think the truth lies in between science and religions and everything isn't just black and white.

 

Most Americans and Europeans are told since the day we are born that we only have 2 choices. You either die and that is the end forever. Or you are part of a religion and go to a heaven or a hell or that you must believe in some god to continue to exist. I think their maybe something to the Eastern Philosophies such as Hindu and Buddhism and the Native North Americans. Along the lines I think we have forgot a lot of things. Although Quantum Physics is coming to find certain things that go along with the Eastern Philosophies.

 

Ponder this for a moment. If you believe you only have one life you are a lot more easily manipulated through the fear of death. If you escape the fear of death you can't be controlled through being given the fear of death.

I've pondered it Thoth and I still am with Victor on the whole question. In a nutshell, no supernatural gobbledegoop for me. But thank you for not blaming me for taking that position.

 

I only wish I could feel the same way about you! Maybe I can with some work on it and so that's the reason why I ask you to explain why you don't believe the official story on the Pentagon. Do you go with the two missile story or just one missile. And also fwiw, do you think they put airplane engines on the missile (s) to mislead the public? Or are those engines lazer generated or photoshopped. See A-wal's theory before you choose one.



#31 A-wal

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 12:08 PM

See A-wal's theory before you choose one.

It's not my theory. I used to work with someone who's into conspiracy theories so I know that one. You asked why there's a pantagon conspiracy theory.



#32 VictorMedvil

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 12:09 PM

Or right so now you're saying that consciousness isn't the charges themselves, it's the organisation of those charges. So consciousness exists because, er... organisation is conscious? Yep, Roman history to explain gravitational dynamics!

 

AI isn't conscious! You complete silly nincompoop!

The amount of "Thought" or "Information Processing before a response" is different between a human and A.I. currently because of the processing power of computers but within 20 to 50 years that line will begin to drastically blur during the technological singularity(https://en.wikipedia...al_intelligence). The amount of information processing or "Thought" that happens before a decision is basically consciousness.


Edited by VictorMedvil, 12 July 2020 - 12:11 PM.


#33 A-wal

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 12:13 PM

The amount of "Thought" or "Information Processing before a response" is different between a human and A.I. currently because of the processing power of computers but within 20 to 50 years that line will begin to drastically blur during the technological singularity(https://en.wikipedia...al_intelligence). The amount of information processing or "Thought" that happens before a decision is basically consciousness.

No it isn't! That's not supported by any science that I know of and if you tried to take that view into an AI conference you'd be kicked out for being a crackpot!



#34 VictorMedvil

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 12:27 PM

No it isn't! That's not supported by any science that I know of and if you tried to take that view into an AI conference you'd be kicked out for being a crackpot!

You can believe whatever you want I am just telling you how it works(https://wps.ablongma...7915/index.html and https://www.frontier...2018.02091/full).


Edited by VictorMedvil, 12 July 2020 - 12:29 PM.