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Mechanism For Inertia/mass

Inertia mass binding interactions

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#1 AnssiH

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Posted 30 June 2020 - 07:31 AM

This is a topic that I've briefly mentioned in some other thread years ago in this forum. Now it's been bouncing at the back of my head lately, and thought it deserves a thread of its own.
 
Just a context for the uninitiated; While we are all familiar with the phenomenon of inertia in everyday life, we still struggle to explain it in physics. It is usually simply viewed as "intrinsic property of matter", with no further explanation as to why or how the phenomenon occurs.
 
It seems to me that all attempts to describe an actual mechanism for inertia revolve around Mach's Principle one way or another. Meaning, people tend focus on finding some kind of hypothetical interaction between a local body and the rest of the universe (Which also famously acted as an inspiration to General Relativity).
 
But I have never seen any hypothesis or investigation towards a much simpler possibility; inertia due to the finite-speed binding interaction between the microscopic elements of a massive body. In fact, the more I think about this, the more I struggle to explain how it would be possible for inertial effect to not happen.
 
Here's a hand-wavy version about the basic principle;
 
  • Imagine a universe consisting exclusive of massless (inertialess) elements (no intrinsic inertia as "property of matter").
  • Imagine that those elements can bind together to form composite objects.
  • Imagine that information can propagate only at finite speeds (no action at a distance).
If we now imagine "pushing" a single inertialess particle, it would move out of the way with no resistance whatsoever (no inrinsic inertia).
 
But let's imagine a situation with two elementary particles, A and B, bound together. Being bound together implies there's a mechanism that makes those particles settle into specific spatial distance from one another. It does not matter what this mechanism is. What matters is that information between the particles propagates at finite speed.
 
When particle A is "pushed" towards B, there must be some small delay before information about the A being pushed reaches particle B. During this information delay, particle A must be pushing closer to B than its natural stable distance. It gets "uncomfortably close" if you will. Thus, A must feel this situation as resistance to acceleration (and consequently pass the effect back to the "pusher" by the same mechanism). This effect is completely identical to "inertia", even though the elements making up the composite object did not have "mass" as intrinsic property to themselves. Since the elements are bound together by some mechanism, "pulling" would yield identical effect (the particles will get too far apart, and will try to get closer together).
 
Follow this idea up to more particles, and you get a Newtonian billiard ball model, where inertia is fully local effect to the macroscopic objects. The effect appears when object starts to accelerate, and disappears when acceleration ceases. Nothing to do with interaction between distant stars and local bodies, everything to do with binding interactions that make up massive objects.
 
The apparent strength of "inertia" effect would be directly proportional to the number of (massless) elements bound together, the strength of the applied force (or the magnitude of acceleration - depends on perspective), the interaction propagation speeds, and the strength characteristics of the binding mechanism(s). Basically it would be exactly what we call "inertia" as these are circularly defined properties.
 
The single most important point I'm making is, when objects are bound together from smaller microscopic elements, it seems impossible to escape this type of "resistance to acceleration" effect. To escape this conclusion, you'd have to propose "action at a distance" between the microscopic elements of the body!
 
If you view macroscopic objects as "elementary particles settle into a stable configuration", then you can view inertia as the simple fact that the same configuration becomes unstable during any acceleration. It must become unstable because there's no "action at a distance within the object". It will return to a stable configuration as soon as acceleration ceases.

And yet another way to view the same thing is that all of the microscopic elements can only know where their neighbors were in the past (just like we look at stars only in the past but in much smaller scale). Thus, applying continuous force on any part of the macroscopic object must always push the bindings into a state where there's going to be a push back to the applied force.
 
Of course the most obvious implication of this is that it would not be correct to call massive "elementary particles" as truly "elementary" - their inertial effect would be a result of some binding interaction, or possibly in some cases a result of how they interact with a massive measurement device. Of course we know from particle accelerators that we can indeed break massive particles into smaller parts, that are not all stable by themselves (and lose total mass in the process).
 
 
Here's some more random conjecture related to the above. Take it for what it's worth (I think it's worth thinking about);
 
If mass arises due to binding interactions, instead of being intrinsic property, it would yield a circumstance where objects bound by stronger mechanisms would tend to "have more mass" when measured. This appears to be true in The Standard Model of particle physics. For example, neutrinos were long thought to have no mass. They interact very weakly with other objects. A weak interaction would yield very weak inertial effects -> very small apparent mass. Maybe this is not just a co-incident. (Remember to take a close look at how particle mass is actually measured)
 
Also in this view it is quite simple to intuitively understand Mass <-> Energy relationship. When an atom nucleus decays, it loses more "mass" than the sum of the parts that detached. It must, because it also lost some binding interaction(s) that were partially responsible for the inertial effects -> effective measured mass (Looking at this via conservation of energy of course yields the same result so long that you have properly defined the energy of the binding interactions themselves).
 
Since F = ma -> a = F/m, it implies that any force imparted on an unbound massless particle would experience instant acceleration to C. This sounds like a potential starting point for a model of photon - electron interactions... ...maybe.
 
 
Well, thoughts? Are you guys aware of any theories revolving around the above concept? Is it possible something this simple has been completely overlooked for this long? Wouldn't be the first time I guess.
 
What am I missing?

-Anssi

Edited by AnssiH, 30 June 2020 - 07:34 AM.


#2 devin553344

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Posted 01 July 2020 - 08:36 AM

This is very large in text without any math to support it so I can't say it's an alternate theory. I read the first few paragraphs then scanned for any math support. I find this somewhat typical bizarrely.


Edited by devin553344, 01 July 2020 - 08:39 AM.


#3 AnssiH

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Posted 02 July 2020 - 01:21 AM

Hi Devin, nice to see at least some reaction to this.

I know Alternate Theory is not exactly proper category for this but I could not think of better suited area. To me, the real reason why this is not a proper location is that there does not exist a commonly accepted theory for inertia, it's commonly viewed as a first-order law of nature (no mechanism behind it). All the theories about it are "alternate".

 

Also what I'm presenting is not a theory - at most you might call it a hypothesis. But what I'm really after is a discussion regarding; how would it be even possible to avoid inertia-like effect when you account for the fact that objects bind together with finite speed mechanism?

 

If you disagree, I'd be interested to hear how to avoid it.

 

A secondary topic of interest is to find out if there exists models of inertia that take the finite speed of binding interactions into account. It's a bit strange thing to overlook.

 

 

Anyway, let me know if there's a better area for this topic.

Also let me know what exactly about it you were hoping to see described mathematically.

 

Thanks,

-Anssi



#4 devin553344

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Posted 02 July 2020 - 05:23 AM

Hi Devin, nice to see at least some reaction to this.

I know Alternate Theory is not exactly proper category for this but I could not think of better suited area. To me, the real reason why this is not a proper location is that there does not exist a commonly accepted theory for inertia, it's commonly viewed as a first-order law of nature (no mechanism behind it). All the theories about it are "alternate".

 

Also what I'm presenting is not a theory - at most you might call it a hypothesis. But what I'm really after is a discussion regarding; how would it be even possible to avoid inertia-like effect when you account for the fact that objects bind together with finite speed mechanism?

 

If you disagree, I'd be interested to hear how to avoid it.

 

A secondary topic of interest is to find out if there exists models of inertia that take the finite speed of binding interactions into account. It's a bit strange thing to overlook.

 

 

Anyway, let me know if there's a better area for this topic.

Also let me know what exactly about it you were hoping to see described mathematically.

 

Thanks,

-Anssi

Sure, I solved momentum using electromagnetic forces in my theory. Basically all particles of mass come down to electromagnetic energies, therefore any attempt to accelerate that mass causes an inductive reactance-like effect(https://en.wikipedia...ctive_reactance). At least that is my current understanding, see: http://www.sciencefo...-of-the-forces/

 

In that theory I've described Planck's constant with logarithmic strain energy applied to electromagnetic energies, and also the electron and subsequently protons and neutrons. In that theory I also explained that the energy is contained within the wavelength and only radiates as a strong force of attraction or repulsion, so that any electromagnetic forces experienced by the particles due to velocity would be only be felt in close proximity. In this way, momentum is a magnetic field but does not radiate as a field to infinite distance.

 

The particles in my theory have a magnetic field based on a charge that is moving at almost perfectly the speed of light, due to the log strain, which might produce a magnetic moment and inductive reactance.

 

Let me know what you think, I think it's similar to your ideas of force resisting acceleration and resisting stopping, but uses already established principles.


Edited by devin553344, 02 July 2020 - 07:08 AM.


#5 AnssiH

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Posted 03 July 2020 - 04:03 AM

Hmm, interesting thought.

 

I'm not sure I'm picking up the connection from your idea to information delays though.. Or is inductive reactance usually viewed as arising from information delay in the interaction between the magnetic field generated by the current, and the magnetic field feeding back to the charged particles? I can see how that could occur in principle but I'm really just guessing here. I can't tell if that's a valid view.

 

I should clarify though that your theory and what I'm alluding to are different category of topics - I'm carefully trying to avoid making any arguments about what a specific binding interaction mechanism might be. Because it will always be possible to model that interaction in multiple valid ways, and what I'm discussing is not dependent on what that specific mechanism might be. The point I'm focusing is; any model that contains the principle of "no action at a distance" (i.e. almost all of them) should carefully take into account information delays.

And in particular it seems to me that modern physics is ignoring binding interaction information delays in the context of inertia. And it seems to me that taking the information delays into account would always yield resistance to acceleration in any binding interaction model.

I guess you could call that a theorem  :shrugs:



#6 devin553344

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Posted 03 July 2020 - 04:43 AM

Hmm, interesting thought.

 

I'm not sure I'm picking up the connection from your idea to information delays though.. Or is inductive reactance usually viewed as arising from information delay in the interaction between the magnetic field generated by the current, and the magnetic field feeding back to the charged particles? I can see how that could occur in principle but I'm really just guessing here. I can't tell if that's a valid view.

 

I should clarify though that your theory and what I'm alluding to are different category of topics - I'm carefully trying to avoid making any arguments about what a specific binding interaction mechanism might be. Because it will always be possible to model that interaction in multiple valid ways, and what I'm discussing is not dependent on what that specific mechanism might be. The point I'm focusing is; any model that contains the principle of "no action at a distance" (i.e. almost all of them) should carefully take into account information delays.

And in particular it seems to me that modern physics is ignoring binding interaction information delays in the context of inertia. And it seems to me that taking the information delays into account would always yield resistance to acceleration in any binding interaction model.

I guess you could call that a theorem  :shrugs:

Information delays "sounds" like a great idea if you can prove it mathematically.

 

I think inductive reactance can have an information delay analogy. Since it's forces interacting with each other. If it resists acceleration of a charge due to interaction of forces. That could give you a starting point for physical calculations. Or not.



#7 AnssiH

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Posted 06 July 2020 - 01:51 AM

Yeah perhaps, have to think about this a bit. 
 
Right now I feel like any calculations within the classical limit are futile, because you can only approximate the effect on macroscopic objects, and everything is circularly defined. You could still use F = ma, but the meaning of "m" changes into "apparent inertial effect", and at the end of the day F is measured via m and m is measured via F.
 
Mathematical analysis in the framework of the Standard Model could be interesting, but it goes a bit beyond my abilities. There are multiple types of interactions with different strength characteristics, plus the wave characteristics of the associated elements to be taken into account (not to mention it's a complex many-body analysis), and all observation methods are suspect to the properties of the model we use to understand those observations. At the end of the day the different characteristics in any model are circularly defined of course - the real question is self-consistency and simplicity of the model.
 
I'm pretty sure it would be possible to apply this principle in the framework of Standard Model, but I don't know if that would just serve to obfuscate the model or not.
 
Another pertinent question is, is it possible to generate a simpler model than Standard model, if you apply the information delay principle from the very beginning. Also not sure where to even begin there...
 
So I think a first step for me is to try to understand what has motivated everyone to ignore the information delay entirely in this context. Surely everyone should expect it must play a role in some way at least.

Edited by AnssiH, 06 July 2020 - 02:52 AM.

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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Inertia, mass, binding interactions