Prison Planet: Modern Slavery

[Vmedvil2]

It seems more people are enslaved now then any time in history even with the abolishing of slavery, read more at https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/feb/25/modern-slavery-trafficking-persons-one-in-200

[Thoth101]

It seems more people are enslaved now then any time in history even with the abolishing of slavery, read more at https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/feb/25/modern-slavery-trafficking-persons-one-in-200

Yea it just seems like they find more ways of doing it while saying there is no more slavery. The way it is going in America I wouldn't be surprised if whites became slaves again. You got white people bowing down for something they didn't even do in their lifetime. White people being ashamed of their heritage and they even call each other racist and white privileged. And for the most part in America it wasn't even the normal white people that had the slaves but the Elites as usual.

[GAHD]

I think this is both a definition issue and a Magnitude vs percentage issue. There are WAY more(magnitude) people alive now, so the magnitude of illegal activities is going to be higher even with the percentage dropping off.

If we go by percentage based off that new definition examine: Serfs throughout Europe, POW/POR throughout the Middle East(Even before the Raj times and particularly prevalent in the times of the Crusades), Casts in all Eastern countries (prime example the villagers in Shogunate era for Japan; and the Han, Sui, and Tang Dynasties in China), a majority the 19th and 20th centuries of Russia...

Historically "freedom" is the exception rather than the rule.

[montgomery]

I think this is both a definition issue and a Magnitude vs percentage issue. 

Yeah, that's an important consideration.

But don't allow it to be an excuse for anybody to just wash their hands of the issue so that it can continue unabated.

 

My answer is in more 'socially' responsible governments. That means more socialist policy within capitalist governments. Like the world's leading ten countries on freedom and quality of life. And less greedy US style capitalism.

 

Our country is doing exceptionally well on both counts!

[montgomery]

It seems more people are enslaved now then any time in history even with the abolishing of slavery, read more at https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/feb/25/modern-slavery-trafficking-persons-one-in-200

Victor, this contained in your link:

 

"Experts have calculated that roughly 13 million people were captured and sold as slaves between the 15th and 19th centuries;

 

Isn't that totally contradicting the statistics that show 40 million today? (sold as slaves being a distinction)

 

1 billion is to 13 million as 8 billion is to 40 million.

 

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-population-by-year/

[GAHD]

My answer is in more 'socially' responsible governments. That means more socialist policy within capitalist governments. Like the world's leading ten countries on freedom and quality of life. And less greedy US style capitalism.

Don't you find it kinda ironic that "socialist" countries are the ones that tend to force a person to do things though(EG USSR)? It's that nasty truth that "it wasn't real communism" and "it wasn't real socialism" is often used to pass-off guilt from the mechanisms in play that result in forced labor. Sure, Monarchy is often horrible too(the middle east and european history as example) but at least you can blame that on a very small group and not a dispersed network of soulless "policy" and "just following orders."

 

Of course, the USA and Canada are kinda guilty of it too. The prison systems in both countries use the prisoners as under-paid labor in government projects that closely follows that re-defined slavery above. There were even some activists focusing on how governors in certain states(and provinces, as above) didn't want to let prisoners parole because they would lose cheap labor in upcoming government projects. Expanding the scope of that penal labor force to compete with private industry is on a few bills in both countries over the past decade too(that did not pass IIRC).

 

But hey, prisoners (especially pre-trial prisoners) don't count as people so it's fine.

[montgomery]

Don't you find it kinda ironic that "socialist" countries are the ones that tend to force a person to do things though(EG USSR)?

 

 

I wasn't referring to communist or socialist governments GAHD, I was talking about capitalist governments in countries that include a necessary amount of 'social ist' policy within a capitalist system. 

 

All countries do to some extent but my argument is that the US doesn't to a suitable degree. For an example, among many, would be the US not providing good affordable healht care for all its people.

 

Although it's true that the US provides 'Medicare' and 'Medicaid' for some of their people, which is 'socialist' reform.

 

I refer you back again to the link I posted that shows the US 17th. on quality of life and Canada 1st. Within that link you'll find the parameters on which quality of life is determined. They refer to 'social responsibility' almost exclusively, which you and I refer to as 'socialism'.

 

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/canada-ranked-best-country-quality-life-2019

 

• A good job market
• Affordability
• Economic stability
• Family friendly
• Income equality
• Politically stable
• Safety
• Well-developed public health system
• Well-developed public education system

 

In all cases of those listed above, they are qualities that exist in the world's leading capitalist countries. You err in referring to 'social' responsibility as communism or socialism.

Edited July 4, 2020 by montgomery

[GAHD]

 

In all cases of those listed above, they are qualities that exist in the world's leading capitalist countries. You err in referring to 'social' responsibility as communism or socialism.

Weather you call it a sofa, a couch, or a setee it's still an item for more than one person to sit down on. The same is true for "social responsibility" vs "socialism" or "communism" whereby the end result is taking-by-force from the efforts of some to provide for others. If a=b, and a=c, then b must also = c.

 

 Playing word-games with that is double-think. Double-plus-good on you for using it in the open.

You are literally PROVING MY POINT re: kinda ironic that "socialist" countries are the ones that tend to force a person to do things in this thread about slavery.

 

 

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/canada-ranked-best-country-quality-life-2019

Opinion editorials are fine, it's an opinion. I find the basic building blocks upon which this opinion is based on to be flawed and rife with logical fallacy. I think I've pointed out a few of those to you before, have I not? Did I not point out that this particular OP-ED was cherrypicking from a much larger dataset and in so doing invalidating the results it was claiming? Go back, read again, don't cross-post something silly that doesn't contribute to the thread you're in. THis one's about Slavery, not "feel good because luxuries" uless you're trying to BE ironic and pointing out that the "feel good because luxuries" is off the backs of socialist-slaved labour.

 

 

[montgomery]

Weather you call it a sofa, a couch, or a setee it's still an item for more than one person to sit down on. The same is true for "social responsibility" vs "socialism" or "communism" whereby the end result is taking-by-force from the efforts of some to provide for others. If a=b, and a=c, then b must also = c.

.editing note from GAHD: you post quotes bugged out because there was nothing written outside of the quote tags between these 2 quotes. A simple "." would fix this. Not your fault, forum software limitation. there is a little "switch" icon top left of the post editor you can use to check out how the tags look when they work properly.

 

 

Playing word-games with that is double-think. Double-plus-good on you for using it in the open.

You are literally PROVING MY POINT re: kinda ironic that "socialist" countries are the ones that tend to force a person to do things in this thread about slavery.

 

 

 

As you've reminded me, this is about slavery and so your comments on taking by force the efforts of some to provide for others, pertains to taking the labour of some to provide for others. Forced or otherwise not being the issue as I'll explain to you.

 

.

 

 

Opinion editorials are fine, it's an opinion. I find the basic building blocks upon which this opinion is based on to be flawed and rife with logical fallacy. I think I've pointed out a few of those to you before, have I not? Did I not point out that this particular OP-ED was cherrypicking from a much larger dataset and in so doing invalidating the results it was claiming? Go back, read again, don't cross-post something silly that doesn't contribute to the thread you're in. THis one's about Slavery, not "feel good because luxuries" uless you're trying to BE ironic and pointing out that the "feel good because luxuries" is off the backs of socialist-slaved labour.

 

I don't consider some of your opinions to be valid.

 

My link that I've posted on another thread and here, is not an example of crossposting. Nothing is said in the rules about posting the same link on two threads. Read the rules and create a new rule if you need to censor my opinion in that way. Why would you want to do that? You can just smite me without needing an excuse.

 

And besides, had you read the OP by Victor you would have learned that we're talking about modern slavery as is defined in his link and also links within his link. Please do that and get back to me if you're interested in this discussion. My link you're objecting to covers that to some extent and so 'is so' on topic. One of those links within Victor's link speaks directly to 'slavery' in modern first world countries.

 

Social responsible government doesn't allow the slave labour (modern definition) as is practiced in America. The most glaring example is the employing of entire families and paying them wages that are considered to be illegal by federal law. Contrary to what you tell me, that's not the same as communism or socialism, it's a perversion of capitalism.

 

IMO, the main difference between America and the ten leading counties on 'quality of life' is that the leading capitalist countries don't permit modern day slavery

 

 

 

 

Did I not point out that this particular OP-ED was cherrypicking from a much larger dataset and in so doing invalidating the results it was claiming?

 

You mentioned 'cherrypicking' but you didn't expand on how it as invalidating any claims. How could 'quality of life' possibly invalidate 'adequate health care for all', for example. Or vice versa, how could health care invalidate quality of life.

Edited July 5, 2020 by GAHD
purely to fix the bad [/quote] tag

[montgomery]

A link that is found within Victor's link in his OP

 

https://www.ilo.org/global/topics/forced-labour/definition/lang--en/index.htm

 

 

The reality of forced labour, trafficking and modern slavery

Forced labour can be imposed to adults and children, by State authorities, by private enterprises or by individuals. It is observed in all types of economic activity, such as domestic work, construction, agriculture, manufacturing, sexual exploitation, forced begging, etc. and in every country.

Edited July 5, 2020 by montgomery

[GAHD]

As you've reminded me, this is about slavery and so your comments on taking by force the efforts of some to provide for others, pertains to taking the labour of some to provide for others. Forced or otherwise not being the issue as I'll explain to you.

Yeah, that's called "slavery" talking from one side of the face, and "social responsibility" talking from the other. PM Chretien made some noise about that.

 

 

 

I don't consider some of your opinions to be valid.

 

My link that I've posted on another thread and here, is not an example of crossposting. Nothing is said in the rules about posting the same link on two threads. Read the rules and create a new rule if you need to censor my opinion in that way. Why would you want to do that? You can just smite me without needing an excuse.

That's fine. My opinions are mine and you're welcome to disagree with them. The things we should all try not to disagree on is the definitions of words: if we use different definitions then meaning cannot be conveyed and communication is pointless. This is why I try very hard to link to definitions of any remotely specialist words I use, and to use the common meanings of words where possible. Orwell made VERY salient points about communication and degradation of language that I try to adhere to.

 

On this authority/martyrdom you seem to be going off on:

 

 

Your link as you originally posted it here had nothing to do with slavery, you made no attempts to mark it as such either. Instead you tried to continue a tangent conversation from elsewhere; your personal crusade of "socialism needs to be spread in a colonial way" by whatever name you have it. It isn't meaningfully contributing to the conversation, just like THIS tangent is ALSO not meaningfully contributing. That's "annoying to our members" and I've gotten reports on it doing exactly that.

 

To be clear I don't look for excuses to "smite" people. (Again, you bringing an interaction from ANOTHER THREAD into this one, CROSS POSTING which IS in our Rules. Please read them.)

....do not post the same or similar topic in multiple threads. It's OK to reply in existing threads with a post containing, "I discuss a related, but different, idea in *this thread*", and provide a link, but it should be in the context of the thread in which you are posting. Ask the staff if you have questions. The staff will merge or delete discussions that do not obey this rule as it sees fit.

I don't like doing it, but at the same time I don't like people with no intention of discussion just standing on a soapbox and dropping spam-links to personal sites to try and get AD-revenue off our traffic(again, it's in the rules).

 

If you don't LIKE the rules you are free to LEAVE and talk elsewhere where the rules ARE ones you like.

 

If you break the rules consistently and annoy everyone who is actually trying to discuss things in an organized and semi-civil way you will be dealt with according to those rules.

 

That simple.

 

 

 

 

And besides, had you read the OP by Victor you would have learned that we're talking about modern slavery as is defined in his link and also links within his link. Please do that and get back to me if you're interested in this discussion. My link you're objecting to covers that to some extent and so 'is so' on topic. One of those links within Victor's link speaks directly to 'slavery' in modern first world countries.

.

You made no attempt to mark it as such nor to comment on how it was so related; you instead dropped into some tired rhetoric on why a country you don't live in should do what you tell them to do.

 

There's no mention in that entire post of anything to do with the thread topic: Moden "slavery" aka non-voluntary work without suitable compensation.

Social responsible government doesn't allow the slave labour (modern definition) as is practiced in America. The most glaring example is the employing of entire families and paying them wages that are considered to be illegal by federal law. Contrary to what you tell me, that's not the same as communism or socialism, it's a perversion of capitalism.

I linked you to an OP-ED about exactly that sort of slave-labour in the canadian penal system, and I talked about it to some length too. Guess Canada isn't "social responsible" ?

 

The second bit about Illegal wages...they have the choice to work elsewhere. That's what a free economy is. If they do not have that choice....are you talking about Illegal immigrants? Japaniese "black company" social problems? It's kinda hard to talk about this without a REAL example or two.

 

I agree that on it's face what you describes is a perversion.

 

IMO, the main difference between America and the ten leading counties on 'quality of life' is that the leading capitalist countries don't permit modern day slavery

...Like Canada? (that penal wage limit link I provided above, which includes pre-trial remand pisoners who are Innocent Until Proven Guilty and waiting for our slow court system to get to them.)

 

 

You mentioned 'cherrypicking' but you didn't expand on how it as invalidating any claims. How could 'quality of life' possibly invalidate 'adequate health care for all', for example. Or vice versa, how could health care invalidate quality of life.

Not part of this thread, and not at all what I meant. This is called "taking something out of context."

 

Try harder to understand how statistics work. It's not worth my time to spoon-feed you something any community collage can teach you regarding proper sources and manipulation of data-sets invalidating the conclusion. I will be nice and link you to 2 sources you can use to expand your critical thinking ability regardig Cherry picking: 1 2

 

Edit: Health care as you push it invalidates QOL of certain people by removing from them earnings they could use towards their own QOL.

It's a "nice idea" on paper that everyone should get medical or help when they need it. Unfortunately it causes real economic problems of artificial inflation of cost, it causes rationing, it causes over-work in the people in that field, and it is NOT comprehensive as practiced in every such country I know of.

 

To try to steer this towards the thread topic: Nurses unions are quite openly complaining about over-work and mandatory overtime right now. That's A KIND OF SLAVERY IS IT NOT?

Edited July 6, 2020 by GAHD
final thought

[montgomery]

 

 

Edit: Health care as you push it invalidates QOL of certain people by removing from them earnings they could use towards their own QOL.
It's a "nice idea" on paper that everyone should get medical or help when they need it. Unfortunately it causes real economic problems of artificial inflation of cost, it causes rationing, it causes over-work in the people in that field, and it is NOT comprehensive as practiced in every such country I know of.

 

I need an explanation for how the health care I push invalidates QoL, so to understand what you mean, as that pertains to slavery. But first I'll set the stage with my understanding:

I see the US system as the purest of capitalism in that it's pricing to the people is dictated by the principle of 'supply and demand'. It's not working very well and the American people are nearly unanimous about that. The people's QoL is destroyed because of their failed system. (this is one of the main factors that put the US down at 17th.) However, honestly speaking, it's a surprise that Canada has managed to be #1 for 3 or 4 (?) years running with a health care system that isn't among the top 2 or 3! Canada must have excelled on the other qualities

I'm saying all that in reference to modern day slavery, as you have required me to do. QoL is directly related to the elimination of M.D.S. (modern day slavery) And finally, the world's leading health care systems operate at roughly half the cost of the US system and provide far better to 'all' their people. And so, your explanation if you please?

 

To try to steer this towards the thread topic: Nurses unions are quite openly complaining about over-work and mandatory overtime right now. That's A KIND OF SLAVERY IS IT NOT?

 

I think it qualifies as a kind of slavery, based on what we've learned so far, but I don't have an answer right now on how to eliminate the problem. I can only suggest that it's a problem that is common to capitalism, communism, fascism, or any other system. There might be room for a discussion on how socialism or socially responsible government could alleviate the problem if we consider how the US system under the Trump regime has aggravated the situation by not being proactive with taking precautions. Thus we might say further enslaving the people.

 

I'm interested in hearing how the nurse's unions can be held responsible.

 

There is no purely capitalist system of government in the entire world as far as I know. And so we must define capitalism according to how it succeeds in the world's leading countries, and conversely, how it doesn't succeed in America. All of the world's best capitalist systems include some 'socialism'. Would you agree that's true by definition of socialism? 

 

I don't know how to create a hidden 'disclaimer' because I'm pretty well computer illiterate (stuprid), so I'll have to go public with this request. Could you please hold back on the insults and threats so as to not tilt the playing field in your favour. I'm feeling that you're not applying your rules equitably. nuff said.

 

I still feel that there is something to be gained by us being able to narrow our differences on how capitalism must work. Do you?

[montgomery]

Yea it just seems like they find more ways of doing it while saying there is no more slavery. The way it is going in America I wouldn't be surprised if whites became slaves again. You got white people bowing down for something they didn't even do in their lifetime. White people being ashamed of their heritage and they even call each other racist and white privileged. And for the most part in America it wasn't even the normal white people that had the slaves but the Elites as usual.

This is an invitation for you to join in the conversation GAHD and I are having. Your complaints are about America and so a closer look at your claims may be helpful. But first you may want to familiarize yourself with the term, 'modern day slavery' and some of the ways that people become enslaved by their system. I'll refer to my link on QoL that states the parameters that must be met to be among the world's leading countries.

 

Can you expand on GAHD's statement:

 

 

  Health care as you push it invalidates QOL of certain people by removing from them earnings they could use towards their own QOL.

 

I push government run universal health care.

Edited July 6, 2020 by montgomery

[Thoth101]

Don't you find it kinda ironic that "socialist" countries are the ones that tend to force a person to do things though(EG USSR)? It's that nasty truth that "it wasn't real communism" and "it wasn't real socialism" is often used to pass-off guilt from the mechanisms in play that result in forced labor. Sure, Monarchy is often horrible too(the middle east and european history as example) but at least you can blame that on a very small group and not a dispersed network of soulless "policy" and "just following orders."

 

Of course, the USA and Canada are kinda guilty of it too. The prison systems in both countries use the prisoners as under-paid labor in government projects that closely follows that re-defined slavery above. There were even some activists focusing on how governors in certain states(and provinces, as above) didn't want to let prisoners parole because they would lose cheap labor in upcoming government projects. Expanding the scope of that penal labor force to compete with private industry is on a few bills in both countries over the past decade too(that did not pass IIRC).

 

But hey, prisoners (especially pre-trial prisoners) don't count as people so it's fine.

 

You are correct and many of the inmates work in the kitchen for as low as 7 cents an hours. The highest it goes up it to about 30 cents an hour in the institution.

[montgomery]

Obviously you're incapable of expanding on it. Could you contribute something by finding out whether prisoners are givena choice to work? Make yourself useful or just follow along with your finger.

[Thoth101]

Obviously you're incapable of expanding on it. Could you contribute something by finding out whether prisoners are givena choice to work? Make yourself useful or just follow along with your finger.

I don't have to find out because I already know. But the way you talk to me why should I? I am not hear to appease your every command. I think you have a little growing up to do before you can have an intellectual conversation on anything. Maybe converse with some grade-schoolers and you will find yourself with the same mental capacity.

[GAHD]

This is quite off topic. I will entertain it ONCE and then tell you to go back to the other threads dedicated TO this topic if you want to continue it. 

I need an explanation for how the health care I push invalidates QoL, so to understand what you mean, as that pertains to slavery....And finally, the world's leading health care systems operate at roughly half the cost of the US system and provide far better to 'all' their people. And so, your explanation if you please?

I said it in the very bit you quoted. I'll use different wording just to drive it past your language barrier.

• Gove.healthcare taxes take monies from peoples
• peoples have less monies cause monies taken
• peoples want used taken monies for their own choices
• peoples own choices reduced cause monies taken from them
• peoples lower life quality cause less choices from less monies

there, the exact same thing I said before, but in another dialect of english so you can compare between them for the meaning.

Only tagently relevant because it removes free-will and free-choice (and their consequences) from people.

 

I see the US system as the purest of capitalism in that it's pricing to the people is dictated by the principle of 'supply and demand'. It's not working very well and the American people are nearly unanimous about that. The people's QoL is destroyed because of their failed system. (this is one of the main factors that put the US down at 17th.) However, honestly speaking, it's a surprise that Canada has managed to be #1 for 3 or 4 (?) years running with a health care system that isn't among the top 2 or 3! Canada must have excelled on the other qualities
...
I'm saying all that in reference to modern day slavery, as you have required me to do. QoL is directly related to the elimination of M.D.S. (modern day slavery)

 blah blah. That's called freedom of choice, freedom of market.

The american people are not unanimous about anything you're saying, you are pulling words out of your (hat) without anything to support them.

You are only looking at confirmation-biased opinion-articles, and the real metrics from the actual data paint a different picture.
 
It's a very long leap to connect this conversation with the thread topic. Go talk about healthcare in healthcare threads. I'm not going to entertain your soapboxing any more than this.

 

I think it qualifies as a kind of slavery, based on what we've learned so far, but I don't have an answer right now on how to eliminate the problem. I can only suggest that it's a problem that is common to capitalism, communism, fascism, or any other system. There might be room for a discussion on how socialism or socially responsible government could alleviate the problem if we consider how the US system under the Trump regime has aggravated the situation by not being proactive with taking precautions. Thus we might say further enslaving the people.
 
I'm interested in hearing how the nurse's unions can be held responsible.
 
There is no purely capitalist system of government in the entire world as far as I know. And so we must define capitalism according to how it succeeds in the world's leading countries, and conversely, how it doesn't succeed in America. All of the world's best capitalist systems include some 'socialism'. Would you agree that's true by definition of socialism?

You need to stop intentionally misunderstanding things being said. Don't hold the union responsible for mandatory overtime and whatnot. Higher-ups in the government-funded hospitals are the problem not the Nurses Union. The unions are there to fight back against those unjust requirements.

Redefining capitalism and socialism is outside scope. Take your soapbox somewhere where those are inside scope. Scope is "are people being coerced or forced to do something." I choose not to further engage with you on red-herrings.

Spoilers are made just like quote, only with the word spoiler in the tags. It's not particularly important, i just use them to not interrupt reading flow for other users actually interested in the the THREAD TITLE TOPIC and not the digressions. It's a respect for other people thing.

I don't know how to create a hidden 'disclaimer' because I'm pretty well computer illiterate (stuprid), so I'll have to go public with this request. Could you please hold back on the insults and threats so as to not tilt the playing field in your favour. I'm feeling that you're not applying your rules equitably. nuff said.

If you feel insulted, it's not because I'm actively insulting you. Feeling insulted when your opinion is critiqued and when your premise is shaken is a symptom of Cognitive Dissonance.(google it)
As friendly "it's nice when other humans better themselves" advice that's something you should work on.
(If this is insulting to you, IT PROVES MY POINT. If you scoff and ignore it IT PROVES IT MORE)

You being told to "follow the rules" isn't a threat. If you think it is, you really need to examine your moral framework. If any action is taken it's not going to be because *I* am displeased, it's going to be because there was objective and repeated violations of the rules.
Rules which are clearly linked on the bottom-right of every single page.
Rules you agreed to when you signed up.
Rules that have not changed in ~10 years

If you did not read the rules when you signed up, that's not *my* fault it is *yours*. If you do NOT agree with the rules, you are free to LEAVE for somewhere where the rules ARE ones you agree with.

We have standards, ESPECIALLY in relation to people we disagree with.  Even something completely wrong is an opportunity to learn WHY it's wrong. Censoring dissent is a mistake. This is to avoid the "echo chamber" effect seen in other communities.

 

I still feel that there is something to be gained by us being able to narrow our differences on how capitalism must work. Do you?

Not in relation to this thread, I don't think so.
In general and somewhere where that IS the topic; sure.