Freethinker Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 Originally posted by: OpenMindFive...I for one have felt and seen the work that i know is god... Sorry, but you THINK this. You have no PROOF of it. There is nothing you can provide to PROVE otherwise. All you can do is take anecdotal evetns and CLAIM they were because of some godly intervention. But there will not be a single verifyable event which can not be easily explained by completely NATURAL events. Yes you can decide to ignore this and continue to blindly accept such fallacious causality. That is your right. But do not decieve yourself to think that everyone will allow such lack of Critical Thinking in their lives. Why is it that people can't acept god...(atheists)(_sorry about spelling if wrong) Why do u feel there is no god...then what do u beleive? -to all the atheists out there Which one? Zuess? Magni? Isis? Mithra? ... YOU reject these and over 1,000 more. I use the same process you do to reject these thousand+ and merely add one more to the list. For the SAME reasons. This havs nothing to do with what I 'feel" or "believe". Do you "believe" in a refrigerator? Of course not. You KNOW a refrigerator exists. "Belief" is only used when there is no VALID reason to accept the existence of something. As such, I do not BELIEVE in anything. I ACCEPT (for convenience) things when there is enough VALID support for it. However, I am always open to VALID SUPPORTABLE evidence which would show me that a god existes. In fact I would like to see a defination of a god that is not filled with internal contraditions and does not conflict with logic and reality. I have never found one that even gets close. And I can not find ANY reason why one would even want the monster that is the biblical god to be the real one. I wouldn't even want him as a neighbor, much less a god. And other religions? How do they identify to christanity? Christianity is a combination of prior religions. It offers nothing new nor unique. It's customs and traditions are based mainly on pagan traditions and customs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lou Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Freethinker, i can say that your arugment is way too scientific.for science, what makes science valid?science is only a way of us to understand the world, why do you think that science is the total truth? for example, a dog, he sees the world way different from us, a dog is stupid and wrong (the way he feels the world) since its a dog.hey, what about us? do we really know everything? no, the answer is no, we also have brains limitation. the way in science, is the way we see, the way we feel, and the way that we can make sense out of our living world.since "god" is also a way of making sense, it may not be totally wrong. if you think that god is stupid or not making sense, think about QM, and other physics. with theories and particles, when the hell in your life is gonna deal w/ those stuffs and when are you gonna have use w/ these? they are all simply an extend of knowledge, something to make us feel better that we understand the world. "god" is also one of them. a way to make sense. god doesnt contradicts any of the sciences. it is just simply a creator beyond everything. for some scientists found that all the matter may be made by slow photons and the whole world is created out of nothingess. and how can this make sense? it might be actually a illusion of god. god does have evidence, such as NDEs, near-death experiences. read some posts in the "after life section". your way of deneying the god is simply because of the limitation of your knowledge, which means that your trapped w/ your existed knowledge and cannot get rip of it. the knowledge you have might not be true, it is made up by all the scientists and you learnt it in school.to understand the world, you have to be open minded, to accept new knowledge. if not, no new discovery would occur and there would be no improvement in the world. thx for reading, some of the pts are not organized...... and some you might not understand.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TINNY Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Verbal repitition is always unreliable. By admitting that the qur'an was first passed verbally, you acknowledge that error would be part of the process. It is claimed that muhammad's words were transcribed as he said them. To begin with it is quite certain that when the Prophet died there was no collected, collated, arranged body of material of his revelations. During the Caliphate of 'Uthman, it was found that this material was being recited by different groups of Muslims in different dialectal forms, thus errors introduced.Do you find any different qur'an? At the time of muhammad it was memorized by his followers. It is unlikely that with so many people who memorized it, there is no different versions of the qur'an till this day. "And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days, and naught of weariness touched Us." (Qur'an 50:38) Same nonsense as the bible! What is meant by six days is not what we normally say as six days. The creation of the universe was very complex. So for us to understand, god says it was created in six days. Some muslim scholars say it means six stages. From the theory of relativity, we know that time is not what we normally think it is. So it implies a different meaning of 'six days'. read this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrameleh Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Freethinker has demolished all the previous “arguments” on behalf of the deists’ side.One thing must be made clear to all of us here: There can be no rational arguments that would be able to support believes in metaphysical and supernatural entities. There can be arguments of different nature such as “experiences from beyond “ etc. This kind of argument avoids the scientific evaluation but on the other hand it has no value exactly for the same reason. In conclusion we must understand and accept the fact that we can not claim that we have a rational discussion in the same time that we put on the table “arguments” like the one mentioned before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Originally posted by: Tim_LouFreethinker, i can say that your arugment is way too scientific. for science, what makes science valid? science is only a way of us to understand the world, why do you think that science is the total truth? "Science" is neither truth nor fiction. In order for it to be either, it would have to have FIXED base of information. (like a revelation based religion) But Science is NOT a fixed base of information, it is a PROCESS. A well defined PROCESS for evaluating information. Unlike a set of tenets from a fixed revelation based religion, Science is self correcting. Regardless of any certainty given to something that has been defined thru the process of science, if contradictory facts are uncovered, the previously held theories get rejected. While in a revelation based religion, when any of it's tenets are shown to be false, you either need to reject that religion or ignore the FACTS. THAT is what make Science the ONLY known valid process. It has been PROVEN to be the MOST ACCURATE method to evaluate the reality of our existence. Nothing else even comes close. for example, a dog, he sees the world way different from us, a dog is stupid and wrong (the way he feels the world) since its a dog. You obviously lack understanding of thought processes. In what way is what a dog "understands" wrong? As a dog is not capable of making the inferences that people make, a dog is far less subject to error than humans. It's understanding may not be as detailed, as comprehensive, but what does this have to do with being "wrong". All you are showing is a selfrighteous assumtion of superiority. Can you run faster than any dog? Jump higher? Smell better? See better? You act as if you are not aware that you are an animal just like a dog is an animal. We as a species have our advantages compared to other species. But we have our failings that other species do not have. the way in science, is the way we see, the way we feel, and the way that we can make sense out of our living world. While Science is the process we use to make sense out of our existence, it has little to do with the way an individual "sees" or "feels". Personal human experience is a very unreliable method for evaluation of reality. There would not be any optical illusions nor magicians if we were not easily decieved. Thus while we use our senses, if we do not learn to balance them with objective reality based on hard science, we will individually live in a make believe world, such as a religious world view. since "god" is also a way of making sense, it may not be totally wrong. "god" does not "make sense". A thought process which accepts a god, which as has been stated here lacks any valid supporting evidence (can not be proved), or for that matter accepting ANYTHING that lacks verifyable proof, IS totally wrong. While by chance some elements one accepts based on a god view may be valid, that does not validate the process. It just shows what the word "coincidence" means. if you think that god is stupid Something that does not exist can not have ANY real attributes. or not making sense, think about QM, and other physics. with theories and particles, when the hell in your life is gonna deal w/ those stuffs and when are you gonna have use w/ these? they are all simply an extend of knowledge, something to make us feel better that we understand the world. "god" is also one of them. a way to make sense. OK, you lost me in some of this. But I will try to answer based on what I do make out of it. As to QM and it's application in "(my and) you life". Perhaps you've heard of electricity? Perhaps you are familiar with the electric light bulb? This is an appli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Originally posted by: TINNYVerbal repitition is always unreliable. By admitting that the qur'an was first passed verbally, you acknowledge that error would be part of the process. It is claimed that muhammad's words were transcribed as he said them. To begin with it is quite certain that when the Prophet died there was no collected, collated, arranged body of material of his revelations. During the Caliphate of 'Uthman, it was found that this material was being recited by different groups of Muslims in different dialectal forms, thus errors introduced. Do you find any different qur'an? What does this have to do with whether it is accurate or not? I only know of one version of the movie "Never Ending Story". But that does not mean it is a true story. But if YOU can show us ORIGINAL TEXTS, as in FIRST writings transcribed DIRECTLY from Muhammad himself, we can at least accept that this IS what he said. YOU can NOT do that. And as has been show above 1) it is quite certain that when the Prophet died there was no collected, collated, arranged body of material of his revelations 2) thus existing texts were first passed verbally 3) material was being recited by different groups of Muslims in different dialectal forms, thus errors introduced Therefore there is no question that the text we have today can NOT be claimed to be accurate to the original. Further, even if it could, this is NOT proof of the text being from some god. At the time of muhammad it was memorized by his followers. and was "recited by different groups of Muslims in different dialectal forms". So so what? It is unlikely that with so many people who memorized it, there is no different versions of the qur'an till this day. Why would this be the case? Just because there was a specific effort to eliminate all but one verion of the texts does not give any factual credence to the result. You need to learn what actually serves as valid proof and what is "logical fallacies". "And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days, and naught of weariness touched Us." (Qur'an 50:38) Same nonsense as the bible! What is meant by six days (in the Qur 'an) is not what we normally say as six days. Thus the Qur 'an LIES. The creation of the universe was very complex. So for us to understand, god says it was created in six days. Some muslim scholars say it means six stages. See? YOU admit that even "muslim scholars" can't agree on what it says or does not say. Once more showing the error of it. If it was FACTUAL, there would not be disagreement on what it "means". It would SAY what it means., From the theory of relativity, we know that time is not what we normally think it is. So it implies a different meaning of 'six days'. read this 1) There was no response from the URL provided. 2) perhaps YOUR idea of what time is does not agree with General Relativity, I do not have that problem. I comprehend time based on General Relativity. 3) There is NOTHING about General Relativity that would contradict a "day" being other than one rotation of the earth. These pseudo-scientific type ramblings are merely obfuscation. Of no real value in developing an understanding of reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lou Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 ok, let me ask you some questions. what is love? what is hatred? whats the meaning of life?explain these in a scientific way.massing compounds reacting w/ each other due to the environmnet?some of them can be explained in biology, as the meaning of life is to life and reproduce, and make our own species live better in next generation. if these are your meanings of life, what you bother living?and love and hatred are due to the need of our own kind of species and try to be superior to others.but what about our love to our pets? what about the love to friends? what is life? where does it come from? is it created from tons of particles and sharing electrons and whatever? if so why cant we make an organism out of dead matter? what makes mass of organic compounds come together and from an organism? why do they cooperate w/ each other? why do they have to be well orangized and not like other compounds? as for all science. almost all the knowledge come from others. i bet you rarely do a experience on whatever science problems. i bet that you dont even have those tools to make those experience. i bet that almost all your knowledge come from books or others' saying and explaining. with all those theories and all that, you cant even prove it by yourself! you dont even know if its right, all your doing is only accepting the knowledge since somepart in your brains tells you: "its true" and it sounds to make sense, also with other people accepting it. "god" is also one of them, and for this "god" i dont mean anything in the bible, i just mean a "god", the ultimate, the everything. about the NDE's. i post many of them in after life section, anyway, i'll post it again.a man is said to be dead and is frozen for 3 days for whatever reason. after that, ppl came and examed his "corpse", it is found that his eye closed and opened, scientists are shock! muscle failure, and all that. after many days of operation, he can finally moved his tongue and talk! and he said that he saw stuffs and all that. is his dead or what? how could his brain function for 3 days of frozening?another one is this: a men is said to be dead. he saw himself flowing and travels to another hospital. during his experience, he saw a baby of his friend is just borned, and he saw the bady was having a whatever X-ray or something like that. after hes revived, he told the people and the description matched! how did he know that his friend's bady is borned in aother hospital? how did he know that the baby had a X-ray thing? not only in these cases, there were many similar NDEs. our science is not perfect, some of the facts are unexplainable, god is a something that might be able to explain these facts. this "god" is not the god in bible, it is a creator. the "guy" who was seen for many people in NDEs... and the one who gives the meaning of life, and the spirits, and our thought, and everything in this extremely organized world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpenMind5 Posted March 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Free Thinker...I must say thank you first for making this such a heated convorsation... Next, u mentioned something about u being rasied a Chathlic i believe...and that as you "grew up" you seemed to learn more about science and that made u dout what u believed...and i must say i am sorry that u gave in so easy... Next, i have noticed this happening with many of my friends and family, as time goes by, they seem to give in and say believing is like a fariy tale...NO! I have thought of it this way...when u are young...your life is like a small cup...and as your grow older that cup grows...young, stories of god can fill that cup easily...and old...well, it gets harder to fill... You also blasted one of my coments on my experience with god lacking evidence when u don't even know the experience I have had or how i feel about this subject...It's not just believing for me...it's the way i live my life..."my" god does not want to be in your life!! HE WANTS TO BE YOUR LIFE!!!You can live your life believing in electicity...and live in darkness! Just because u can't see it...doesn't mean it's not there...deep down u know there is more...I know u mut feel the MORE i u...he spirt that tells u he is there...NO NOT A STAIN ether! Thank u everyone for heating this convo...i had no idea that it would do so well.... When i asked about religions and how they compared to christianity...I never ment or implyed that MY religion of christianity was right, i was asking so i could relate them to something i know so well... I pray for all of u... And Free Thinker...this question is for u...but others may reply...i would love that... What if i said U were to die in two hours...what would u cling to? Sceince or God? Do they not go hand in hand in some way? There are things in science that I can not see...so how do i know they are there???? I cannot see my god...but i can see his work...and not what i think is his work... Let me say it again...You can live your whole life believing in electricity, and still live that life in darkness...HE sent his only son to us to die...thats your proof or prophet! COME ON! Why is this so hard??? God is! and always will be! He made the rules of science and everything! HE CAN BREAK THEM if he WANTS to or not! (and i know as u read this u are thinking.."his" god)-but thats wrong...he is your god too! he is all our gods wether u want him to be or not...good luck all of u... Amen OP5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TINNY Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 During the time of Muhammad and many centuries after that, Islam was at it's prime, where the society in islamic regions was so peaceful. That was the time when Islam was practiced correctly. That's how Islam should be. Peaceful, loving, harmony. But now, people don't follow it correctly due to many rasons, namely, influences from secular materialism.Further, even if it could, this is NOT proof of the text being from some god. in the quran, God tells us that He is expanding the universe. 1400 years ago, who would have thought of that? It would have been ridiculous to those people who don't believe at that time. Now what do scientists say about Hubble's discovery? There are many more proofs. Go to http://www.harunyahya.com . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Originally posted by: OpenMindFiveWhat if i said U were to die in two hours...what would u cling to? Sceince or God? Do they not go hand in hand in some way? There are things in science that I can not see...so how do i know they are there???? OP5 OP5 - you confuse me. If I were told I would die in two hours, why should I choose either science or god? I would seek comfort in my family, if possible (more likely I would be extremely afraid and not know what to do with myself). And it is an EXTREMELY hypothetical situation - nobody ever gets two hours' notice like that. Do you really think any non-religious person who decided to choose "god" in that situation would feel any relief? It sounds as if your idea of god is a pill you can take to alleviate pain. Coming from you that is a surprise - it would mean there is no faith, only conviction. And that is the opposite of what I consider to be important in religion. But I am in fact more surprised by your other comment. There are indeed things in science that you cannot see, yes. Take electricity. But plug in a lamp and make sure you use an uncoated light bulb. What you see in the glowing thread of carbonized filament is a stream of electrons beings slowed down, which forces them to give off energy, which creates photons, which is visible light. In this process, heat is a by-product, which is why the bulb gets hot. Both "electricity" and "heat" are concepts which you can't see directly. But this does show what electricity is (flow of particles) and does (provides power, creates light and heat). But unseen things are not unique to science. Electricity and heat existed long before anyone called themselves "scientists". Or do you think electricity arose when it was discovered? There is no direct link between "unseen" and "non-existent". What our eyes can percieve has nothing to do with what is real, and what is not. Therefore you cannot use your eyes as proof of anything. They are, however, great tools for studying. Tormod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 "carbonized filament"...LOL. I meant to write "carbon filament". Tormod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Originally posted by: Tim_Louok, let me ask you some questions. I hope it is not just personal conceit that makes me feel you are addressing me. what is love? what is hatred? explain these in a scientific way. I will get to "life" seperately. Love and Hate are emotions and can be handled together. Emotions are a construction of the brain, a PHYSICAL elctro-chemical machine. Scientifically, we ahve a good amount of detail regarding the application of these emotions/ processes in evolutionary terms. e.g the hardwired "love" response of a mother for her child. We have even mapped the specific molecular (electro-chemical) level areas of activity in the brain which are responsible for these emotions. IOW these are completely NATURAL process with well understood mechanisms. Both societally and physically. Beyond that. It is often claimed that Scientific Naturalists such as myself are to analytical or "cold" to appreciate, much less experience, such emotions. This is like saying that an athelete that studies the scientific physiology of their sport would perform less efectively. We KNOW this is absurd. The most advanced golfers eek out their best games by extensive scientific evaluation of their swings and equipment. There are systems that allow teams to compile video's of the opponent and their own performance during the first part of a game to be reviewed during a break for correction during the later segments. There is not a single element in our human existance that does not benefit from a greater scientific understanding of it. The same is true for love, hate, fear, appreciation of art, .... whats the meaning of life? 42, now what is the actual question? lol OK, Douglas Adams aside! This question does not really mean anything. Just because you are able to assemble the words into an interogatory question structure does not mean it is a valid question. What is north of the north pole? Is another example. I can ask it, but it has no meaning. I could even provide some "responses". But they would not "mean" anything as a factual answer. It is the fallacy of the complex question amoung other fallacies. There are too many variables/ undefined items for an actual relevant answer. some of them can be explained in biology, as the meaning of life is to life and reproduce, and make our own species live better in next generation. if these are your meanings of life, what you bother living? And what "answers" would you provide that are "correct"? Worship of a god? Personal eternal salvation? These are no different than the ones you minimalize. They are all just "responses" that do not provide any "answers". and love and hatred are due to the need of our own kind of species and try to be superior to others. but what about our love to our pets? what about the love to friends? I fail to understand your confusion. "LOVE" as a electro-chemical process of the brain is understood. Substituting any combination of nouns has little to do with it. There may be any variety of geography of the brain that is involved in various versions of what we refer to as "love". But so what? That does not change the FACT that LOVE is well understood in a totally natural way. what is life? That is a very good question. But it is basically an etymological issue. It is asking to provide an comon understanding to the symbolic representation of the phonetic combination. It is an effort to develop a common understanding to be used when the term is presented. I am not aware of a single specific agreed defintion. where does it come from? is it created from tons of particles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Originally posted by: OpenMindFiveFree Thinker...I must say thank you first for making this such a heated convorsation... Next, u mentioned something about u being rasied a Chathlic i believe...and that as you "grew up" you seemed to learn more about science and that made u dout what u believed...and i must say i am sorry that u gave in so easy... 1) Yes I was born and raised Catholic. Including 6 years of Catholic Elementary School, altar boy, ... 2) it was actually a Nun/ Teacher in 8th grade, thanks to Vatican II, that started my deconversion. 3) it was then my desire to fill in the gaps, left by the collapse of the house of cards of the Christian beliefs left from "being allowed to question", that started me down the path of truth and reality. It has been an enjoyable lifetime path. It is YOU that should receive other's sorrow. You have not had the chance to rid yourself of the monkey on your back. You remain stuck in an outmoded, intellectually bankrupt, harmful mindset. Society will continue to be held back until people are able to shake the shroud of ignorace promoted by religious beliefs. Next, i have noticed this happening with many of my friends and family, as time goes by, they seem to give in and say believing is like a fariy tale... Yes, more and more people are moving into the 20th Century. Let's hope the rate increases, since we are already in the 21st Century. There is an incredible relief achieved when one shakes the religious monkey off their back! Ignorance is NOT bliss. It is just ignorance. NO! I have thought of it this way...when u are young...your life is like a small cup...and as your grow older that cup grows...young, stories of god can fill that cup easily...and old...well, it gets harder to fill... Yes, Santa is used to SCARE kids into behaving. Such lies and fallacies stop working when one gets older and realizes the absurdity of the claims. Fear is one of the main tools religion uses to force adherence. Only intellectual strength and internal fortitude allows one to slap that monkey down! We outgrown almost all childish beliefs as we grow, as our "cup" grows. Some however put their hand over the cup and say "no thanks" when a more complete version of reality is offered to fill the cup. Others do give in to accepting ADULT understandings of reality rather than continuing to wallow in childish fairytales. You also blasted one of my coments on my experience with god lacking evidence when u don't even know the experience I have had OK, that is easy to solve, show us all PROOF of your claimed experience and we will no longer be able to reject them out of hand. However the key word here is PROOF, not just empty claims. or how i feel about this subject...It's not just believing for me...it's the way i live my life..."my" god does not want to be in your life!! HE WANTS TO BE YOUR LIFE!!! There is no "HE", unless you are able to prove otherwise. We are waiting. Either you can PROVE the existence of "HE", or you need to stop claiming "HIS" existence, if you expect to carry on an intellectually honest discussion. You can live your life believing in electicity...and live in darkness! Just because u can't see it...doesn't mean it's not there...deep down u know there is more...I know u mut feel the MORE i u...he spirt that tells u he is there...NO NOT A STAIN ether! A typical attempt at sophistry. Electricity CAN been seen! Ever heard of lightning? Seen a spark? It's effects can be measured and our knowledge of it allows us to VERY accurately predict how it will operate. There is not a single analogy that can be m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 by freethinker"god" does not "make sense". A thought process which accepts a god, which as has been stated here lacks any valid supporting evidence (can not be proved), or for that matter accepting ANYTHING that lacks verifyable proof, IS totally wrong. While by chance some elements one accepts based on a god view may be valid, that does not validate the process. It just shows what the word "coincidence" means. you sound like a guy that would argue the world is flat cause there is no proof that it is round. just because we,like the dog in your post, can not understand the world of a supieror being,doens't mean that it is not there. you right in saying there isalwasyproofin thingsthatare true, however i doubt any of us have the ablilty to see the proof for what it is. if people only realized that the moon was round, and the earth was too, they would have never doubted people said itwas round. someday someonemay again look up at the sky,again see proof of something great in something that they have seen along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Originally posted by: TINNYDuring the time of Muhammad and many centuries after that, Islam was at it's prime, where the society in islamic regions was so peaceful. Muhammad accused local Jewish tribes of conspiring to aid Mecca. After Badr, the Medinese Jews were attacked and forced to emigrate to Syria. After the defeat at Uhud, the Nadir tribe of Jews received the same fate. Two years later, after a failed Meccan siege of Medina was over, the Qurayza tribe of Jews was attacked and all the men were killed. By the 640s, Arabs possessed most of Syria, Iraq, Persia, and Egypt. Thirty years later they were conquering parts of Europe, North Africa, and Central Asia.# 623 - Battle of Waddan# 623 - Battle of Safwan # 623 - Battle of Dul-'Ashir# 624 - Muhammad and converts begin raids on caravans to fund the movement. # 624 - Battle of Badr # 624 - Battle of Bani Salim # 624 - Battle of Eid-ul-Fitr and Zakat-ul-Fitr # 624 - Battle of Bani Qainuqa' # 624 - Battle of Sawiq # 624 - Battle of Ghatfan # 624 - Battle of Bahran# 625 - Battle of Uhud. 70 Muslims are killed.# 625 - Battle of Humra-ul-Asad # 625 - Battle of Banu Nudair # 625 - Battle of Dhatur-Riqa# 626 - Battle of Badru-Ukhra # 626 - Battle of Dumatul-Jandal # 626 - Battle of Banu Mustalaq Nikah# 627 - Battle of the Trench# 627 - Battle of Ahzab # 627 - Battle of Bani Quraiza # 627 - Battle of Bani Lahyan # 627 - Battle of Ghaiba # 627 - Battle of Khaibar# 630 - Muhammad conquers Mecca. # 630 - Battle of Hunsin. # 630 - Battle of Tabuk# 632 - Abu-Bakr, Muhammad's father-in-law, along with Umar, begin a military move to enforce Islam in Arabia.# 633 - Battle at Oman# 633 - Battle at Hadramaut. # 633 - Battle of Kazima# 633 - Battle of Walaja# 633 - Battle of Ulleis# 633 - Battle of Anbar# 634 - Battle of Basra, # 634 - Battle of Damascus# 634 - Battle of Ajnadin. # 634 - Battle of Namaraq# 634 - Battle of Saqatia.# 635 - Battle of Bridge. # 635 - Battle of Buwaib. # 635 - Conquest of Damascus. # 635 - Battle of Fahl.# 636 - Battle of Yermuk. # 636 - Battle of Qadsiyia. # 636 - Conquest of Madain.# 637 - Battle of Jalula.# 638 - Battle of Yarmouk. # 638 - The Muslims defeat the Romans and enter Jerusalem. # 638 - Conquest of Jazirah.# 639 - Conquest of Khuizistan and movement into Egypt.# 641 - Battle of Nihawand# 642 - Battle of Rayy in Persia# 643 - Conquest of Azarbaijan# 644 - Conquest of Fars# 644 - Conquest of Kharan. # 644 - Umar is murdered. Othman becomes the Caliph.# 647 - Conquest of the island of Cypress# 644 - Uman dies and is succeeded by Caliph Uthman.# 648 - Campaign against the Byzantines.# 651 - Naval battle against the Byzantines.# 658 - Battle of Nahrawan.# 659 - Conquest of Egypt# 662 - Egypt falls to Islam rule.# 666 - Sicily is attacked by Muslims# 677 - Siege of Constantinople# 687 - Battle of Kufa# 691 - Battle of Deir ul Jaliq# 700 - Military campaigns in North Africa# 702 - Battle of Deir ul Jamira# 711 - Muslims invade Gibraltar# 711 - Conquest of Spain# 713 - Conquest of Multan# 716 - Invasion of Constantinople# 732 - Battle of Tours in France.# 740 - Battle of the Nobles.# 741 - Battle of Bagdoura in North Africa# 744 - Battle of Ain al Jurr.# 746 - Battle of Rupar Thutha# 748 - Battle of Rayy.# 749 - Battle of lsfahan# 749 - Battle of Nihawand# 750 - Battle of Zab# 772 - Battle of Janbi in North Africa# 777 - Battle of Saragossa in Spain You were saying? That was the time when Islam was practiced correctly. That's how Islam should be. Peaceful, loving, harmony. But now, people don't follow it co Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyj you sound like a guy that would argue the world is flat cause there is no proof that it is round. Interesting choice of example. Since it was RELIGION that claimed the earth to be flat well after people proved it was round. e.g. the bible REQUIRES the earth to be flat. There are many passages that only work with a flat earth. just because we,like the dog in your post, can not understand the world of a supieror being,doens't mean that it is not there. It has nothing to do with humans not having the ability to understand. In fact is is BECAUSE we have the ability to understand that we CAN and DO reject such nonsense. What allows us to realize that a god belief is nonsense is the complete lack of evidence to support the belief in one. That along with the requirement to REJECT our "ability to understand" in order to hold religious views. you right in saying there isalwasyproofin thingsthatare true, however i doubt any of us have the ablilty to see the proof for what it is. We'll make it easy on you. Rather that only relying on YOUR ability to see whether a claimed proof IS a proof or not, show us ANY proof you claim to have and we will examine it right here. Or do you not have these proofs you claim to have? We will not hold our breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lou Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 freethinker, i got nothing else to say here, in my opinion, your just way too narrow minded. what makes you believe in science?? have you ever question it???try to feel god, and read something about it (i bet you never read many of them), then judge it and see the value of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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