Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Zero Point Energy


  • Please log in to reply
9 replies to this topic

#1 Flummoxed

Flummoxed

    Explaining

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 746 posts

Posted 26 August 2019 - 06:37 AM

This link is partly related to a lot of threads on this forum, http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html It might amuse some and annoy others.



#2 exchemist

exchemist

    Creating

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2773 posts

Posted 26 August 2019 - 08:36 AM

This link is partly related to a lot of threads on this forum, http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html It might amuse some and annoy others.

What I always struggle with in these descriptions is the notion that zero point energy can be extracted. 

 

By definition, it is the energy remaining in the ground state of the system, which is, again by definition, the lowest energy state available to it. That would seem to indicate you can't get any energy out without going to a state below the lowest state possible! In other words the zero point energy of the vacuum, as with any other system, is unextractable, even in principle, let alone in practice. 

 

I also have to say that the idea of treating the vacuum as a collection of harmonic oscillators, and hence presuming there is a growing proportion of zero point energy distributed in higher and higher frequency oscillators, reads exactly like a re-run of the Ultraviolet Catastrophe, at the end of the c.19th. 

 

I admit I do not know much about QFT or QED, but both these notions strike me as highly suspect. 


Edited by exchemist, 26 August 2019 - 08:37 AM.


#3 Flummoxed

Flummoxed

    Explaining

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 746 posts

Posted 26 August 2019 - 12:51 PM

I think many people have in the past have tried to equate zero point energy to dark energy driving the expansion of space. The concept of inflation driving the production of matter in the big bang is happily accepted. The big bang appears to defy the laws of thermodynamics, which is a little bit related to one of the threads in this forum. 

 

Mass and or inertia via the Higgs field is also related to gravity, which might also be due to zero point energy.  

 

Photons gravitate, Light interacts with zero point field, making its speed slightly variable  :eek:

 

I know you don't buy into the Casimir effect, are you also saying you don't like QFT and QED as well :surprise: . 

 

There is a link to patent to extract energy from zero point energy, I tried looking at the link and it didn't work :shocked: . 

 

The link is definitely not standard model but might amuse a few people. 



#4 exchemist

exchemist

    Creating

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2773 posts

Posted 26 August 2019 - 02:39 PM

I think many people have in the past have tried to equate zero point energy to dark energy driving the expansion of space. The concept of inflation driving the production of matter in the big bang is happily accepted. The big bang appears to defy the laws of thermodynamics, which is a little bit related to one of the threads in this forum. 

 

Mass and or inertia via the Higgs field is also related to gravity, which might also be due to zero point energy.  

 

Photons gravitate, Light interacts with zero point field, making its speed slightly variable  :eek:

 

I know you don't buy into the Casimir effect, are you also saying you don't like QFT and QED as well :surprise: . 

 

There is a link to patent to extract energy from zero point energy, I tried looking at the link and it didn't work :shocked: . 

 

The link is definitely not standard model but might amuse a few people. 

The Casimir effect is real enough. It is just that it can be accounted in terms of the polarisability of matter, without invoking vacuum fluctuations. 

 

Vacuum fluctuations are a well-established feature of QFT so I have no problem with them. They are needed to account for a number of things, including the Einstein coefficient for spontaneous emission in spectroscopy and possibly the mechanism behind random radioactive decay processes.

 

What I do have a problem with is the notion that zero point energy is extractable, for the reason I have given. According to what I read, I am not the only sceptic about that. 


  • OceanBreeze likes this

#5 Flummoxed

Flummoxed

    Explaining

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 746 posts

Posted 27 August 2019 - 02:56 AM

What I do have a problem with is the notion that zero point energy is extractable, for the reason I have given. According to what I read, I am not the only sceptic about that. 

 

I am very sceptical also, ie not a disbeliever at all.

 

for amusement I found the patent  http://ecee.colorado...s/US7379286.pdf dated 2008. 

 

"

ABSTRACT(57)
A system is disclosed for converting energy from the electromagnetic quantum vacuum available at any point in the universe to usable energy in the fonn of heat, electricity, mechanical energy or other forms ofpower. By suppressing electromagnetic quantum vacuum energy at appropriate frequencies a change may be effected in the electron energy levels which will result in the emission or release ofenergy. Mode suppression of electromagnetic quantum vacuum radiation is known to take place in Casimir cavities. A Casimir cavity refers to any region inwhich electromagnetic modes are suppressed or restricted. When atoms enter into suitable micro Casimir cavities a decrease in the orbital energies ofelectrons in atoms will thus occur. Such energy will be captured in the claimed devices. Upon emergence form such micro Casimir cavities the atoms will be reenergized by the ambient electromagnetic quantum vacuum. In this way energy is extracted locally and replenished globally from and by the electromagnetic quantum vacuum. This process may be repeated an unlimited number oftimes. This process is also consistent with the conservation of energy in that all usable energy does come at the expense of the energy content ofthe electromagnetic quantum vacuum. Similar effects may be produced by acting upon molecular bonds. Devices are described in which gas is recycled through a multiplicity of Casimir cavities. The disclosed devices are scalable in size and energy output for applications ranging from replacements for small batteries to power plant sized generators ofelectricity.
"



#6 exchemist

exchemist

    Creating

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2773 posts

Posted 27 August 2019 - 03:20 AM

I am very sceptical also, ie not a disbeliever at all.

 

for amusement I found the patent  http://ecee.colorado...s/US7379286.pdf dated 2008. 

 

"

ABSTRACT(57)
A system is disclosed for converting energy from the electromagnetic quantum vacuum available at any point in the universe to usable energy in the fonn of heat, electricity, mechanical energy or other forms ofpower. By suppressing electromagnetic quantum vacuum energy at appropriate frequencies a change may be effected in the electron energy levels which will result in the emission or release ofenergy. Mode suppression of electromagnetic quantum vacuum radiation is known to take place in Casimir cavities. A Casimir cavity refers to any region inwhich electromagnetic modes are suppressed or restricted. When atoms enter into suitable micro Casimir cavities a decrease in the orbital energies ofelectrons in atoms will thus occur. Such energy will be captured in the claimed devices. Upon emergence form such micro Casimir cavities the atoms will be reenergized by the ambient electromagnetic quantum vacuum. In this way energy is extracted locally and replenished globally from and by the electromagnetic quantum vacuum. This process may be repeated an unlimited number oftimes. This process is also consistent with the conservation of energy in that all usable energy does come at the expense of the energy content ofthe electromagnetic quantum vacuum. Similar effects may be produced by acting upon molecular bonds. Devices are described in which gas is recycled through a multiplicity of Casimir cavities. The disclosed devices are scalable in size and energy output for applications ranging from replacements for small batteries to power plant sized generators ofelectricity.
"

Yes, the key bullshit sentence seems to be this one: "When atoms enter into suitable micro Casimir cavities a decrease in the orbital energies of electrons in atoms will thus occur."  

 

"Thus"? It's a complete non-sequitur. The energy levels of electrons in atoms are set by the confining potential of attraction between the electron and the nucleus. Futzing around with zero point energy of the vacuum has no effect on that.

 

I guarantee the inventor will have no working model and not even any experimental results to show the principle can work. 


Edited by exchemist, 27 August 2019 - 03:21 AM.


#7 Flummoxed

Flummoxed

    Explaining

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 746 posts

Posted 27 August 2019 - 03:49 AM

Yes, the key bullshit sentence seems to be this one: "When atoms enter into suitable micro Casimir cavities a decrease in the orbital energies of electrons in atoms will thus occur."  

 

"Thus"? It's a complete non-sequitur. The energy levels of electrons in atoms are set by the confining potential of attraction between the electron and the nucleus. Futzing around with zero point energy of the vacuum has no effect on that.

 

I guarantee the inventor will have no working model and not even any experimental results to show the principle can work. 

 

I had a look at the highly not reliable wiki source on SED and then brought up the chat ref the SED page https://en.wikipedia...electrodynamics

 

It seems its a little controversial, and calphysics might be stretching things a little :) 



#8 Flummoxed

Flummoxed

    Explaining

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 746 posts

Posted 29 August 2019 - 04:38 AM

Whilst there appears to be a lot of pseudo science, and weird claims ref zero point energy. This paper is interesting Quantum theory is emergent from zero point energy. The paper made my head hurt, it is not for the faint hearted. I wouldn't recommend reading it, unless you are bored or have an interest in zero point field and pilot waves etc.

 

In fact don't even attempt to download the pdf in the link, it is very heavy reading.

 

https://www.research..._of_the_Quantum



#9 exchemist

exchemist

    Creating

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2773 posts

Posted 29 August 2019 - 05:47 AM

Whilst there appears to be a lot of pseudo science, and weird claims ref zero point energy. This paper is interesting Quantum theory is emergent from zero point energy. The paper made my head hurt, it is not for the faint hearted. I wouldn't recommend reading it, unless you are bored or have an interest in zero point field and pilot waves etc.

 

In fact don't even attempt to download the pdf in the link, it is very heavy reading.

 

https://www.research..._of_the_Quantum

I've skimmed the intro and conclusions and it is certainly very interesting. They turn QM on its head, by proposing that it is interaction between matter and the ZPF that gives rise to the wavelike behaviour of matter, including quantisation and even Heisenberg's principle of indeterminacy. I notice they also come down in favour of viewing Schrödinger's equation as applying only to ensembles and not individual particles. 

 

This seems to be part of a development called Stochastic Electrodynamics: https://en.wikipedia...electrodynamics . I note that Anna Maria Cetto, who has played a prominent role in SED, is a co-author of the paper.

 

It is a type of hidden variable theory, it seems.  



#10 Flummoxed

Flummoxed

    Explaining

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 746 posts

Posted 29 August 2019 - 09:45 AM

The wiki link is quick overview but drifts into the pseudoscience, the talk link I posted previously from the same wiki on the subject gives a few pros and cons. But was not convincing either way, which is why I dug a little further.

 

I am finding SED very plausible at the moment, which can change.