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#35 hazelm

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 06:01 AM

de nada,

 

Hazel be aware, I am speculating playing with ideas. Hand waving

 

Hoyles steady state model or something similar, might be more plausible than the Big Bang if for instance the CBR is evidence of ongoing particle creation. 

https://en.wikipedia...dy-state_model 

 

Any way an inflation stage all over the universe, causing baryogenesis, (based on Dark Matter) or MAYBE something similar to Hawking radiation whereby virtual particles are driven apart, becoming baryons(quarks) (No imaginary Dark matter required) which form all the matter in the universe giving off radiation in the process, forming the CBR.

 

If particle creation is a low level on going process then Hoyles Steady State model or a variation becomes interesting, and appears quite plausible, especially if the radiation pressure caused by the CBR is driving the expansion of the universe. Either way both Big Bang and Hoyles ideas require particle creation, likely both by inflation, both would result in CBR. One happens in a flash of a second, and never happens again. The other happens continuously as a fact of how the universe works. 

 

In the Hot Big Bang instance, all matter and radiation were produced in a smaller region of space, and expanded outwards cooling down as it goes, dark energy drives the expansion of the universe. 

 

OR 

 

Perhaps under continuous particle creation, all matter created in the universe gives of CBR, which would heat space, but due to the expansion MAYBE driven by the CBR space stays cold at around 2.75Kelvin. 

Yes,  I am aware that you are speculating.  And I am riding along for the fun of it.  Seems to me that we are all still in the speculative stage of where the beginning - if there ever was a beginning -  really begins.  Do you remember "I Love a Mystery"? :-)


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#36 Flummoxed

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 09:20 AM

Yes,  I am aware that you are speculating.  And I am riding along for the fun of it.  Seems to me that we are all still in the speculative stage of where the beginning - if there ever was a beginning -  really begins.  Do you remember "I Love a Mystery"? :-)

 

That's OK then :) I wont worry about leading you astray :shocked: . 

 

Just a recap

 

Remember if any children are reading this thread, it is speculative. the Standard Model is what grown ups believe in, and you should too. Inflation > Baryogenesis > Hot Big Bang Nucleosynthesis > rapid cooling and expansion of the universe giving us what we have today evidenced by CBR, which was obviously so much hotter in the past. Why? because it came into existence in the hot big bang silly, and it happened in a blink of an eye, really it did :innocent: Those niggly little observations grown ups cant explain are due to dark stuff, that we cant detect, but is required to make the standard model work.  :zip:  


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#37 hazelm

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 10:03 AM

That's OK then :) I wont worry about leading you astray :shocked: . 

 

Just a recap

 

Remember if any children are reading this thread, it is speculative. the Standard Model is what grown ups believe in, and you should too. Inflation > Baryogenesis > Hot Big Bang Nucleosynthesis > rapid cooling and expansion of the universe giving us what we have today evidenced by CBR, which was obviously so much hotter in the past. Why? because it came into existence in the hot big bang silly, and it happened in a blink of an eye, really it did :innocent: Those niggly little observations grown ups cant explain are due to dark stuff, that we cant detect, but is required to make the standard model work.  :zip:

And, if you don't like either of those theories, wait until you read mine.  I am still waiting for someone with scientific knowledge to actually read Edgar Allen Poe's "Eureka" instead of assuming that it is another of his murderous novels and poems.  It is not.  I suppose I'd say it is a combination of religion, philosophy and science.  Poe had a very good theory of what goes on in the continuing expansion.  I like it. 

 

But that is straying from Flummoxed's thread.  So, we'll drop it there - for now.  Flummoxed needs a beginning.  And, therein lies the issue.  Flummoxed,  do you need a beginning?  The perpetual question:  How did it start?  As for that, do you need an ending?  I have read one theory of how the universe - as we know it - will end.  But, what then?  An ever-expanding universe cannot have an ending.  Can it?  And, in your theory,  are we equating "universe" with "cosmos"?  Or, is one within the other.

 

Time tor me to be quiet.


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#38 Flummoxed

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 12:03 PM

 Flummoxed needs a beginning.  And, therein lies the issue.  Flummoxed,  do you need a beginning?  The perpetual question:  How did it start?  As for that, do you need an ending?  I have read one theory of how the universe - as we know it - will end.  But, what then?  An ever-expanding universe cannot have an ending.  Can it?  And, in your theory,  are we equating "universe" with "cosmos"?  Or, is one within the other.

 

Time tor me to be quiet.

 

 

Very Philosophical, and a bit spooky maybe. Some religions require a beginning of time. I am not so sure the universe does. Space could just be, and evolve through a process of eternal creation and destruction. Perhaps zero space and infinite space can co-exist at the same time. ie which came first, chicken or the egg, perhaps, a singularity like a 5th interconnecting dimension connecting space dimensions to all other points in space and time. That assumes entanglement is fact of course and cant be explained in some other way. 

 

If you are looking for beginnings of time, I take the pantheist view with religious nuts ie the universe is god and we are part of that universe. Was there ever a time when the universe did not exist. If you want metaphysics, all things may be connected/entangled to a certain extent.

 

I still like entropic gravity by Eric Verlinde based on entanglement. But the CBR driving the expansion of space is an intriguing idea, which does not tie up, with Verlindes theories on the expansion of space. And his ideas at the end of the day might just be complicated hand waving. :)

 

 

You have missed something critical I don't have a theory as yet, I am just kicking ideas around :)

 

 

 Wait until you read mine.  I am still waiting for someone with scientific knowledge to actually read Edgar Allen Poe's "Eureka" instead of assuming that it is another of his murderous novels and poems.  It is not.  I suppose I'd say it is a combination of religion, philosophy and science.  Poe had a very good theory of what goes on in the continuing expansion.  I like it. 

 

 

Why not start a thread :) If its completely wrong someone hopefully will set you right, I guess you are talking about this   https://en.wikipedia...a:_A_Prose_Poem

https://www.eapoe.or...ons/eurekac.htm


Edited by Flummoxed, 21 May 2019 - 12:17 PM.


#39 hazelm

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 12:42 PM

Very Philosophical, and a bit spooky maybe. Some religions require a beginning of time. I am not so sure the universe does. Space could just be, and evolve through a process of eternal creation and destruction. Perhaps zero space and infinite space can co-exist at the same time. ie which came first, chicken or the egg, perhaps, a singularity like a 5th interconnecting dimension connecting space dimensions to all other points in space and time. That assumes entanglement is fact of course and cant be explained in some other way. 

 

If you are looking for beginnings of time, I take the pantheist view with religious nuts ie the universe is god and we are part of that universe. Was there ever a time when the universe did not exist. If you want metaphysics, all things may be connected/entangled to a certain extent.

 

I still like entropic gravity by Eric Verlinde based on entanglement. But the CBR driving the expansion of space is an intriguing idea, which does not tie up, with Verlindes theories on the expansion of space. And his ideas at the end of the day might just be complicated hand waving. :)

 

 

You have missed something critical I don't have a theory as yet, I am just kicking ideas around :)

 

 

 

Why not start a thread :) If its completely wrong someone hopefully will set you right, I guess you are talking about this   https://en.wikipedia...a:_A_Prose_Poem

https://www.eapoe.or...ons/eurekac.htm

That is it.  Thanks.  I would never be able to manage a thread that does it justice.  It is said that most of his predictions about the future have actually come to pass.  But, no, it would take someone better than I who had read the book and is able to discuss it with knowledge. 

 

Sorry I brought it up and interrupted your thread.  Something you said got me to thinking about Poe's ending. 

 

As for your "theory",  whatever you want to call it.  Sounds like more than just speculation.  Some good ideas there  which seem to be able to compete with the generally accepted theory.

 

I'm gone.



#40 Flummoxed

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 01:01 PM

 

Something you said got me to thinking about Poe's ending. 

 

As for your "theory",  whatever you want to call it.  Sounds like more than just speculation.  Some good ideas there  which seem to be able to compete with the generally accepted theory.

 

I'm gone.

 

I never read Poe before, I am only at the beginning,  he appears to be pondering the same questions what is space, is it finite or infinite. I take the political solution and jump on the fence. Space is both infinite and finite, depending on which dimensions you are looking at. :)

 

Plausible speculation, maybe. No one is contradicting it so far?  

 

I think I am gone for a beer also. :beer-fresh:


Edited by Flummoxed, 21 May 2019 - 01:02 PM.


#41 hazelm

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 01:32 PM

I never read Poe before, I am only at the beginning,  he appears to be pondering the same questions what is space, is it finite or infinite. I take the political solution and jump on the fence. Space is both infinite and finite, depending on which dimensions you are looking at. :)

 

Plausible speculation, maybe. No one is contradicting it so far?  

 

I think I am gone for a beer also. :beer-fresh:

Please keep me posted on what you think.  Then I might read it again and learn more.



#42 Flummoxed

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 10:25 AM

I was surfing the web recently and stumbled across this little link https://www.nature.c...ticles/295304a0 I was not aware of the de sitter universe. and found it interesting. 

Creation of open universes from de Sitter space

 

It is likely according to many theories, this one included that multiple inflationary stages of the universe may have taken place in the past, resulting in multiple big bangs. The universe may be a lot older than 40 billion years. 

 

 

Or maybe lots of little bangs took place. 



#43 fahrquad

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 12:01 PM

I never read Poe before, I am only at the beginning,  he appears to be pondering the same questions what is space, is it finite or infinite. I take the political solution and jump on the fence. Space is both infinite and finite, depending on which dimensions you are looking at. :)

 

Plausible speculation, maybe. No one is contradicting it so far?  

 

I think I am gone for a beer also. :beer-fresh:

 

Edgar Allen Poe, aka Edgar Allen Perry, spent 13 months stationed at Fort Moultrie on Sullivan's Island, Charleston SC.  The short story "The Gold Bug" takes place on Sullivan's Island.  His last poem, "Annabel Lee" was heavily influenced by his time in Charleston.  If you happen to visit Charleston stop by the Unitarian Cemetery at 4 Archdale Street and pay a visit to Anna Ravenel.

 

https://en.wikipedia...Edgar_Allan_Poe

https://chstoday.6am...-charleston-sc/

https://charlestonda...ed-annabel-lee/


Edited by fahrquad, 01 August 2019 - 01:22 PM.


#44 Flummoxed

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 10:58 AM

Edgar Allen Poe, aka Edgar Allen Perry, spent 13 months stationed at Fort Moultrie on Sullivan's Island, Charleston SC.  The short story "The Gold Bug" takes place on Sullivan's Island.  His last poem, "Annabel Lee" was heavily influenced by his time in Charleston.  If you happen to visit Charleston stop by the Unitarian Cemetery at 4 Archdale Street and pay a visit to Anna Ravenel.

 

https://en.wikipedia...Edgar_Allan_Poe

https://chstoday.6am...-charleston-sc/

https://charlestonda...ed-annabel-lee/

Poes ideas were not well received for various googled reasons. His poem wasnt that bad. Scientific interpretations have moved on since his day. 

 

Interpretations of the big bang have moved on as well,  https://www.nature.c...ticles/295304a0  Inflation or chaotic inflation or etc. 



#45 hazelm

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 11:52 AM

Poes ideas were not well received for various googled reasons. His poem wasnt that bad. Scientific interpretations have moved on since his day. 

 

Interpretations of the big bang have moved on as well,  https://www.nature.c...ticles/295304a0  Inflation or chaotic inflation or etc. 

His conclusion to the story  - what finally happens - is interesting.  Does that theory hang around in some circles?  Seems I'd read it before. 

 

I've not yet read the googled reasons.  I shall.  I rather suspect what those reason are.  We shall see.

 

Hazel


Edited by hazelm, 02 August 2019 - 11:52 AM.


#46 Flummoxed

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 09:51 AM

His conclusion to the story  - what finally happens - is interesting.  Does that theory hang around in some circles?  Seems I'd read it before. 

 

I've not yet read the googled reasons.  I shall.  I rather suspect what those reason are.  We shall see.

 

Hazel

 

I have no idea, it reads like word salad, and I had to put it down.



#47 hazelm

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 10:13 AM

I have no idea, it reads like word salad, and I had to put it down.

That is true, also.  First one topic and then another, never really finishing with any.  And some things he would say he had mentioned elsewhere but had not.  That's why I wished it had an index. 



#48 Dubbelosix

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 04:47 AM

That's OK then :) I wont worry about leading you astray :shocked: . 

 

Just a recap

 

Remember if any children are reading this thread, it is speculative. the Standard Model is what grown ups believe in, and you should too. Inflation > Baryogenesis > Hot Big Bang Nucleosynthesis > rapid cooling and expansion of the universe giving us what we have today evidenced by CBR, which was obviously so much hotter in the past. Why? because it came into existence in the hot big bang silly, and it happened in a blink of an eye, really it did :innocent: Those niggly little observations grown ups cant explain are due to dark stuff, that we cant detect, but is required to make the standard model work.  :zip:

 

Yes it came into existence in a hot flurry, that does not exclude a cold beginning. There is no contradiction of this, keep in mind. The only things we should keep in mind is that 

 

1. Massive cold spots are not predicted by a hot big bang

2. The laws of thermodynamics does not make sense with a universe beginning in a hot big bang. 



#49 Flummoxed

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Posted 06 August 2019 - 11:08 AM

Yes it came into existence in a hot flurry, that does not exclude a cold beginning. There is no contradiction of this, keep in mind. The only things we should keep in mind is that 

 

1. Massive cold spots are not predicted by a hot big bang

2. The laws of thermodynamics does not make sense with a universe beginning in a hot big bang. 

 

Sorry didn't notice your post,

 

Yes and that is when I stumbled across this link   https://www.nature.c...ticles/295304a0  I thought it might be interesting. 

 

As the expansion of space carries on accelerating and cooling, it could reach levels of expansion required to separate virtual particles, causing another hot big bang. It does away with the concept of a beginning of time, singularities etc. 

 

The laws of thermodynamics go out of the window pre big bang. Hot big bang could be unstable particles being created and producing radiation as the particles lose mass and become stable, not unlike muons. Muons are one of the proofs of relativistic effects. Produced in the upper atmosphere by particles interacting with  cosmic rays (has this been proved, do they also exist in space?)

 

How can massive cold spots be detected when if they did exist, they would be masked by foreground CMBR 

 

Edit just realized that wasn't the link that had interested me. repeating de sitter universe loosely early version of  Penroses ideas, which appear more plausible#

 

Boa noite


Edited by Flummoxed, 06 August 2019 - 01:40 PM.


#50 Dubbelosix

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Posted 07 August 2019 - 04:19 AM

Sorry didn't notice your post,

 

Yes and that is when I stumbled across this link   https://www.nature.c...ticles/295304a0  I thought it might be interesting. 

 

As the expansion of space carries on accelerating and cooling, it could reach levels of expansion required to separate virtual particles, causing another hot big bang. It does away with the concept of a beginning of time, singularities etc. 

 

The laws of thermodynamics go out of the window pre big bang. Hot big bang could be unstable particles being created and producing radiation as the particles lose mass and become stable, not unlike muons. Muons are one of the proofs of relativistic effects. Produced in the upper atmosphere by particles interacting with  cosmic rays (has this been proved, do they also exist in space?)

 

How can massive cold spots be detected when if they did exist, they would be masked by foreground CMBR 

 

Edit just realized that wasn't the link that had interested me. repeating de sitter universe loosely early version of  Penroses ideas, which appear more plausible#

 

Boa noite

 

The referenced paper does have similarities to other known models that wish to express the younger universe like a black hole. Small black holes are naturally very hot, the issue we have is that this is an observable of the event horizon and from inside black holes, the radiation nor matter look dense enough. There are mechanical issues I'd like to address, for instance, we know not of what caused such a black hole to increase in size other than a speculation that something from outside the universe is feeding our own or whether it is an expression of something non-conserved from within: Nor can we be sure that such a black hole can last long enough not to simply nucleate away back into the nothingness - due to thermal radiation which happens very quickly if the proposed model starts at small enough scales. 

 

It should avoid singularity theorems, so long as you have principles put in place to answer why they do not occur, for instance, it is a well-known fact in quantum mechanics that you cannot squeeze particles into a space smaller than its own wavelength which gives a natural reason why the compactification of quantum fluctuations on the appropriate scales cannot give a singular spacetime. It is interesting to note that the understanding of what happens inside a black hole nearly has equal importance when trying to understand why the early cosmology seems so similar to that which we find from the gravitating black hole body, but knowing what happens inside of one is key to understanding whether our universe began in a hot or cold state, since the thermal properties of a black hole may only depend on the observable feature of its own radiation - an alternative is that black holes are essentially a type of condensate for example in which the interior thermal wavelengths play a more fundamental role in regulating the temperature of the black hole from inside. 



#51 Flummoxed

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Posted 07 August 2019 - 07:51 AM

No. A self inflating de sitter universe can only happen in the absence of matter. ie no black holes. As existing space expands the density of matter in that space is reduced allowing a quasi de sitter universe to appear, allowing another big bang over a region of inflated space de sitter space. 

 

I can not find the paper I had been reading, but in 1917 De Sitter and Einstein had competing theories etc Einstein messed with his to add the cosmological constant, it arises naturally from de sitter space. forget I even mentioned Penroses psycho bable. I will see if I can find the paper again.