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From Where Comes This Energy?


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#1 hazelm

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 06:23 AM

https://www.scienced...p Science News)

 

 

At the center of our galaxy an enormous black hole blasts out matter and energy.  "Energy cannot be created or destroyed"; so I am told.  So, from where comes this energy out of the central black hole in our galaxy?  Maybe the question is what are these central black holes of galaxies.  Aren't they different from the more common black holes of dead stars?

 

       



#2 A-wal

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 06:27 AM

Aren't they different from the more common black holes of dead stars?

No not really, they're just bigger. It's just that they tend to be a LOT bigger, big enough that tidal forces don't tear you apart before you get anywhere near it. The matter in the jets comes from the stuff around it and the jets themselves are electromagnetic.


Edited by A-wal, 21 March 2019 - 06:46 AM.


#3 Flummoxed

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 06:54 AM

 "Energy cannot be created or destroyed"; so I am told.  So, from where comes this energy out of the central black hole in our galaxy?  

 

Matter and energy likely came from the Inflationary stage of the Big Bang https://counterbalan...l?client=ctns2 

 

This matter coalesced after it cooled a bit forming galaxies black holes etc. 

 

Inflation was the faster than light speed expansion of the early universe, that likely separated virtual particle pairs causing them to become real. A bit like the theoretical Hawking radiation around a black hole which separates virtual particles allowing them to become real. 


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#4 hazelm

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 06:57 AM

No not really, they're just bigger. It's just that they tend to be a LOT bigger, big enough that tidal forces don't tear you apart before you get anywhere near it. The matter in the jets comes from the stuff around it and the jets themselves are electromagnetic.

 

This is fascinating.  I clicked Quote and got more than I read on your original post.  At least on my computer, your original post does not say "and the jets themselves are electromagnetic".    

 

All right.  Just another mystery to be solved.  But, for now, is the "stuff around it" still inside the black hole?  I  think I"ve fallen into my own deep hole.  Let me see what Flummoxed has to say.  Meanwhile, thank you. 



#5 hazelm

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 07:07 AM

Matter and energy likely came from the Inflationary stage of the Big Bang https://counterbalan...l?client=ctns2 

 

This matter coalesced after it cooled a bit forming galaxies black holes etc. 

 

Inflation was the faster than light speed expansion of the early universe, that likely separated virtual particle pairs causing them to become real. A bit like the theoretical Hawking radiation around a black hole which separates virtual particles allowing them to become real. 

Oh, the energy came from the Big Bang.  I'd not made the connection.  Thanks and I'll read your link. 



#6 A-wal

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 07:20 AM

But, for now, is the "stuff around it" still inside the black hole?

No, definitely not. It's matter that fell towards the black hole and then got shot away in the jet before reaching the black hole.

 

Oh, the energy came from the Big Bang.  I'd not made the connection.  Thanks and I'll read your link. 

Everything, all matter and energy supposedly came from the big bang.


Edited by A-wal, 21 March 2019 - 07:20 AM.

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#7 hazelm

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 08:39 AM

No, definitely not. It's matter that fell towards the black hole and then got shot away in the jet before reaching the black hole.

 

Everything, all matter and energy supposedly came from the big bang.

All right.  Since the energy was inside the black hole (according to the article),  I wondered where the matter was.  And the force of the energy blasted the matter.  Makes sense to me.

 

I had read before that all matter and energy came from the big bang.  Simply lost track of that.   I need to spend more time with this and get it all tied together.  Too much going on with my short days.  And too many things grab my attention.  <g>

 

Thanks much. 



#8 exchemist

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 09:30 AM

https://www.scienced...p Science News)

 

 

At the center of our galaxy an enormous black hole blasts out matter and energy.  "Energy cannot be created or destroyed"; so I am told.  So, from where comes this energy out of the central black hole in our galaxy?  Maybe the question is what are these central black holes of galaxies.  Aren't they different from the more common black holes of dead stars?

The energy radiated by a black hole will come from the gravitational potential energy released by matter being drawn in towards it by gravitational attraction. Work done (which is mechanical energy) is force x distance gone under its influence. Something falling inward towards a massive object converts gravitational potential energy to kinetic energy, from which it can become converted into other forms such as heat and hence radiation.  

 

So yes energy is conserved and in this case it comes from gravitation. 


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#9 hazelm

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 10:14 AM

The energy radiated by a black hole will come from the gravitational potential energy released by matter being drawn in towards it by gravitational attraction. Work done (which is mechanical energy) is force x distance gone under its influence. Something falling inward towards a massive object converts gravitational potential energy to kinetic energy, from which it can become converted into other forms such as heat and hence radiation.  

 

So yes energy is conserved and in this case it comes from gravitation. 

Thanks for the review.  I was wanting a farther back source but the review fits in.  From Big Bang via gravity to black hole.  Does that make sense? 



#10 Flummoxed

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 11:43 AM

Thanks for the review.  I was wanting a farther back source but the review fits in.  From Big Bang via gravity to black hole.  Does that make sense? 

 

The only way energy can leave a Black hole is in the form of Gravitational waves, and perhaps Hawking radiation. https://en.wikipedia...king_radiation 

3 Solar Masses was lost recently when two Black Holes merged, this energy was in the form of gravitational waves which was detected by LIGO

Most of the other effects of Black Holes are to do with the accretion disc around Black Holes. https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Black_hole



#11 hazelm

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 12:22 PM

The only way energy can leave a Black hole is in the form of Gravitational waves, and perhaps Hawking radiation. https://en.wikipedia...king_radiation 

3 Solar Masses was lost recently when two Black Holes merged, this energy was in the form of gravitational waves which was detected by LIGO

Most of the other effects of Black Holes are to do with the accretion disc around Black Holes. https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Black_hole

If the reporter chose the correct term (blasted), there must have been some other force within the hole to eject that energy and matter.  "At the center of our galaxy an enormous black hole blasts out matter and energy." (from my OP as a shortened version of what the article said)



#12 Flummoxed

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 01:05 PM

If the reporter chose the correct term (blasted), there must have been some other force within the hole to eject that energy and matter.  "At the center of our galaxy an enormous black hole blasts out matter and energy." (from my OP as a shortened version of what the article said)

 

Awal briefly answered your question here in his first post, his last sentence. The accretion disc around the black hole is most likely responsible for any matter being blasted away from a black hole. The Accretion disc around a black hole can generate magnetic fields due to it being a hot Plasma. This link explains it better https://www.sciencea...ted-v404-cygni 



#13 Dubbelosix

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 01:45 PM

yeah Hazel, this shouldn't be taken as meaning the energy comes from inside of it - there are some technical reasons why this will happen; it is widely thought the black hole gobbles a thing up fast, but the supermassive black hole spins so fast, only short of the speed of light, that things find it difficult to fall in, so they get ripped apart into a very dense sphere of energy that surrounds the black hole... and for other technical reasons, from time to time, short bursts from this energy source occur at the poles of the black hole.


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#14 hazelm

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 01:52 PM

Awal briefly answered your question here in his first post, his last sentence. The accretion disc around the black hole is most likely responsible for any matter being blasted away from a black hole. The Accretion disc around a black hole can generate magnetic fields due to it being a hot Plasma. This link explains it better https://www.sciencea...ted-v404-cygni 

Sorry, "That page does not exist.  So it says.


Edited by hazelm, 22 March 2019 - 08:25 AM.


#15 hazelm

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 01:56 PM

yeah Hazel, this shouldn't be taken as meaning the energy comes from inside of it - there are some technical reasons why this will happen; it is widely thought the black hole gobbles a thing up fast, but the supermassive black hole spins so fast, only short of the speed of light, that things find it difficult to fall in, so they get ripped apart into a very dense sphere of energy that surrounds the black hole... and for other technical reasons, from time to time, short bursts from this energy source occur at the poles of the black hole.

And those "short bursts from the poles" are what the article is about.  Yes?



#16 Flummoxed

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 02:13 PM

Sotty, "That page does not exist.  So it says.

 

https://www.sciencea...cted-v404-cygni try this



#17 hazelm

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 03:19 PM

Thank you.   That worked.  And the super-massive black hole at the center our the Milky Way acts in the same way?