Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Emergent Space

Space time gravity

  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 Flummoxed

Flummoxed

    Understanding

  • Members
  • 377 posts

Posted 14 March 2019 - 03:24 AM

This link is a bit pop science and out there.  Space, time gravity etc are emergent. The world is not as we know it. The ideas are based around Hilbert space https://en.wikipedia...i/Hilbert_space. A link by Sean Carrol Emergent spacce time http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2016/07/18/space-emerging-from-quantum-mechanics/

 

Putting aside the Pop science in the you tube link I find this extremely interesting.



#2 Moronium

Moronium

    Creating

  • Members
  • 2274 posts

Posted 14 March 2019 - 10:56 AM

Carrol:

 

The word "space" in "Hilbert space" doesn't mean the good old three dimensional space...it's just math-speak for "a collection of things."

 

 

"Math-speak," eh?  Says it all.

 

There aint no particles, just waving strings, I tells ya!  Let's talk about 11 dimensions.  Give me a slide rule and I will prove what ultimate reality is all about.

 

I'm still watching this video, and I certainly agree with the arguments put forth by Nagel, Harris, and others that the standard scientific model of reductionistic, mechanistic materialism is wholly insufficient to explain mental states and a great variety of other things.


Edited by Moronium, 14 March 2019 - 11:43 AM.


#3 Moronium

Moronium

    Creating

  • Members
  • 2274 posts

Posted 14 March 2019 - 11:30 AM

Despite all the references to QM, mathematical formulas, etc. this is obviously a matter of philosophy, not science.

 

"Information" is vaguely referred to in the first part of this video, but toward the end this "information" is identified with a universal, pre-existing "mind."  What some (like Einstein) would call "God."

 

The existentialists insist that existence precedes essence.  Here the claim in that mind precedes matter, which may well be true (not that we'll ever know).  The mind/matter dualism problem is here reduced to a monistic view.  It just reverses what is claimed to be the "ultimate reality."  Here it is claimed that ultimate reality  is not matter, but mind, but not in the way solipsism presupposes.

 

That said, the whole argument is basically the same one as was advanced by George Berkeley centuries ago.


Edited by Moronium, 14 March 2019 - 11:41 AM.


#4 Flummoxed

Flummoxed

    Understanding

  • Members
  • 377 posts

Posted 15 March 2019 - 03:44 AM

Its plausible speculation.

 

They are looking at what space is, and how many dimensions may be required to model it. The type of Hilbert space and the number of dimensions they require are not yet decided, except that they think there should be finite dimensions in the Hilbert space. 

 

Space time dimensions likely only give an approximation to reality, and what we observe may just be a reflection, like shadows on a wall :)

 

It is also interesting that Herman Verlinde, is working on this along with Sean Carrol. Hermin Verlinde being the identical twin of Eric Verlinde who is largely responsible for  Emergent gravity.

 

Given that it appears that gravity, space and time MAY emerge from entanglement effects. We might be getting a sniff of a TOE.

 

From a laymans perspective:) Not involving slide rules :)

During the inflationary stage of the current universe when space expanded above the speed of light virtual particle pairs were separated and became real decaying to stable particles losing lots of heat/radiation in the process. This lead to the Hot big bang which was slowed due to mass and gravity emerging from an emergent space. Now that galaxies are getting separated the expansion of the universe is accelerating and gravitational entropy is reducing. Who knows perhaps Penroses speculation that we exist in an Aeon might lead to another inflationary stage and another big bang.



#5 Flummoxed

Flummoxed

    Understanding

  • Members
  • 377 posts

Posted 16 March 2019 - 12:32 PM

I just finished reading these two papers Particle pair creation by inflation of the quantum vacuum https://arxiv.org/pdf/1903.05523.pdf and the First observation of the Dynamical Casimir effect https://www.technologyreview.com/s/424111/first-observation-of-the-dynamical-casimir-effect/ and https://arxiv.org/abs/1105.4714

 

My laymans perspective not involving slide rules is not a million miles from the truth :) 

 

I do like it when I find a theory or idea that supports my own little conjectures :)



#6 ralfcis

ralfcis

    Understanding

  • Members
  • 352 posts

Posted 16 March 2019 - 06:05 PM

Love it!



#7 VictorMedvil

VictorMedvil

    The Human Shadow

  • Members
  • 826 posts

Posted 17 March 2019 - 03:25 AM

I think the point is you could do all that math or use a Matrix with 0s and 1s as your solution in a binary type code. It is just another way to describe the Universe rather than Time Space just as DNA is in G,T,A, and C's, the universe can be expressed in Binary in a matrix. This is much how in Digital Immortality the Human Brain can be expressed as a (X,Y,Z) array with binary states in 256 bit processor code or how a Protein can be folded and expressed as binary digits.

 

Particles in Quantum Information Theory

srep43048-f1.jpg

 

Bioinformatics model of Protein

 

Views-of-a-Protein-Wireframe-Ball-and-st


Edited by VictorMedvil, 17 March 2019 - 03:44 AM.


#8 Moronium

Moronium

    Creating

  • Members
  • 2274 posts

Posted 17 March 2019 - 03:25 AM

Love it!

 

Why would you love it. Ralf, after you have categorically rejected any claim like the following:

 

What we get with the quantum information flowing in and out of black holes at 19 orders of magnitude faster than the speed of light should be unnoticeable in most situations,

 



#9 ralfcis

ralfcis

    Understanding

  • Members
  • 352 posts

Posted 17 March 2019 - 12:17 PM

No I love the video. Polly's insanity, not so much.



#10 ralfcis

ralfcis

    Understanding

  • Members
  • 352 posts

Posted Today, 11:36 AM

I'm thinking more and more that this way of looking at reality as the emergent result  of information is probably the most important scientific theory of all time. We just need to get into the programming language of this information and we can shape reality to whatever we want. We've already seen a glimpse of this with the ability to move sections of DNA code to program life. I saw this video at the same time I was concluding, in my relativity and algebra thread, that reality is information and time is the flow rate of information that can be altered by changes in relative velocity. A permanent result in age difference occurs just by manipulating the flow of information. This is the future, people.

 

Another great idea is that our brains are tuned into this reality and fill out the stick figures we get as inputs to our senses. The information we receive is greatly enhanced by the quantum computers that are our brains. Too bad the credibility of the video is sullied by some religious connotations. 


Edited by ralfcis, Today, 11:44 AM.


#11 Moronium

Moronium

    Creating

  • Members
  • 2274 posts

Posted Today, 12:01 PM

Too bad the credibility of the video is sullied by some religious connotations. 

 

 

The video didn't say a single word about religion, as I recall.



#12 ralfcis

ralfcis

    Understanding

  • Members
  • 352 posts

Posted Today, 12:42 PM

You probably skimmed over it.



#13 Moronium

Moronium

    Creating

  • Members
  • 2274 posts

Posted Today, 01:02 PM

You probably skimmed over it.

 

 

Can you point out the time on the video when these religious references were made, Ralf?


Edited by Moronium, Today, 01:03 PM.


#14 Flummoxed

Flummoxed

    Understanding

  • Members
  • 377 posts

Posted Today, 01:14 PM

It appears Space time and gravity are not fundamental, it appears they are emergent. Sean Carroll, and the Verlinde Bros, are the ones that have caught my attention. I assume there are many more working on this, producing more papers than it is possible to read. Its just some thing to watch. 

 

The video above is a bit pop science, and touching like ya all say on metaphysics which I suspect is to appeal to some audiences with that inclination. 

 

Emergent space time explains the inflationary stage of the universe https://www.preposte...tum-mechanics/ 

https://en.wikipedia...smology)#Theory https://arxiv.org/pdf/1606.08444.pdf I havent read the last link yet, just stuck it here for future perusal so I dont lose the link.



#15 ralfcis

ralfcis

    Understanding

  • Members
  • 352 posts

Posted Today, 05:15 PM

You're right Moronium, it must have been the holy spirit whispering in my ear.



#16 GAHD

GAHD

    Eldritch Horror

  • Administrators
  • 2496 posts

Posted Today, 05:27 PM

You'd probably like the stuff Frank Wilczek puts out there. Keep that name on your short list. :)


Edited by GAHD, Today, 05:29 PM.


#17 Moronium

Moronium

    Creating

  • Members
  • 2274 posts

Posted Today, 05:35 PM

You're right Moronium, it must have been the holy spirit whispering in my ear.

 

 

I'll give you credit for fessin up, at least, eh, Ralf?   I never expected you to say another word on the topic.