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Theology Overrides Science


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#35 Moronium

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 03:55 AM

Communists allow religion in society they are not neccesarily atheist. 

 

@ Moronium, what is your definition of god, that people seem to be getting on your case about? There appear to be lots of different non related versions of what gods are. The Pope thinks he speaks for god, do you believe that? Would you obey the Pope if he told you to do something?  

 

Although communist regimes "allow" religion (kinda) you can't join the party unless you are an atheist.  You must first renounce all religion before you can even participate, let alone hold office.  How's that for the 'discrimination" which you object to?

 

I've already said that I don't not belong to any revealed religion, although, as usual, Monty ignores that.

 

Definition of God?  I don't have one.  I don't pretend to know what God is.  That said, I find it impossible to believe that there is not some kind of "intelligence" immanent in the universe.  You'll never get intelligence from an inanimate rock.  It has to be there before hand, as we kinda discussed in the "emergent space" thread.  

 

If you want to call intelligence "God," then I guess that would be my definition.  I don't, however, pretend to "know" that there is a God in that form or any other, or even what is means to talk about "intelligence" in that context  Maybe "information" is a better word.


Edited by Moronium, 19 March 2019 - 05:39 AM.


#36 Flummoxed

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 04:13 AM

Although communist regimes "allow" religion (kinda) you can't join the party unless you are an atheist.  You must first renounce all religion before you can even participate, let alone hold office.  How's that for the 'discrimination" which you object to?

 

I've already said that I don't not belong to any revealed religion, although, as usual, Monty ignores that.

 

Definition of God?  I don't have one.  I don't pretend to know what God is.  That said, I find it impossible to believe that there is not some kind of "intelligence" immanent in the universe.  You'll never get intelligence from an inanimate rock.  It has to be therefore before hand, as we kinda discussed in the "emergent space" thread.  

 

If you want to call intelligence "God," then I guess that would be my definition.  I don't, however, pretend to "know" that there is a God in that form or any other, or even what is means to talk about "intelligence" in that context  Maybe "information" is a better word.

 

Although America  "allows" Atheism (kinda) you can't join the Republican party unless you are an religious.  You must first renounce all atheism before you can even participate, let alone hold office.  How's that for the 'discrimination" which you object to?

 

I understand there are a few humanists in the Democratic Party, regarding policies there isn't much between republicans and democrats.

 

Sounds like you are agnostic but If your maybe intelligent god is based on the emergent space thread, then I am guessing you feel all things are connected, like a big quantum computer in some way. :) However even inanimate objects are connected via emergent gravity, all of space and time contains information, so you would have to believing in rocks as well :).  


Edited by Flummoxed, 17 March 2019 - 04:13 AM.


#37 Moronium

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 04:15 AM

The purpose of religion in society as I have already stated is to control human minds. It runs amock when people fail to recognize as they grow up that it has no scientific basis.

 

 

Traditional religion generally serves a number of positive purposes in society.  By and large it teaches you "right from wrong," and it guarantees that you will be held accountable if you ignore the difference.  By positing an omniscient God, it effectively puts a cop on every corner, thereby deterring crime and other anti-social behavior.  God will always know what you did, even if no one else does.

 

A "god-fearing" man is much less likely to be a criminal than an atheist, I figure.

 

As I understand it, religions like catholicism have a ritual of confession.  Generally the "penance" imposed by the priest includes undoing the sin where possible, such as returning stolen property and sincerely apologizing for stealing the **** to begin with.


Edited by Moronium, 17 March 2019 - 04:25 AM.


#38 Flummoxed

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:59 AM

Traditional religion generally serves a number of positive purposes in society.  By and large it teaches you "right from wrong," and it guarantees that you will be held accountable if you ignore the difference.  By positing an omniscient God, it effectively puts a cop on every corner, thereby deterring crime and other anti-social behavior.  God will always know what you did, even if no one else does.

 

A "god-fearing" man is much less likely to be a criminal than an atheist, I figure.

 

As I understand it, religions like catholicism have a ritual of confession.  Generally the "penance" imposed by the priest includes undoing the sin where possible, such as returning stolen property and sincerely apologizing for stealing the **** to begin with.

 

BULLSHIT.  

 

The bible belt is in the southern states, how do you explain away they have the highjest murder rates. https://www.worldatl...st-murders.html


Edited by Flummoxed, 17 March 2019 - 09:14 AM.


#39 Moronium

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 09:24 AM

BULLSHIT.  

 

The bible belt is in the southern states, how do you explain away they have the highjest murder rates. https://www.worldatl...st-murders.html

 

Hmm, that's funny.  I don't see any information about murder rates at that link.  I do, however, see this:

 

California, Texas, Florida, and Illinois Have the Most Murders. 

 

 

Following them are, in order, the next 8 are: 

 

5. Pennsylvania 

6 Georgia 615
7 New York 609
8 Michigan 571
9 North Carolina 517
10 Maryland 516
11 Missouri 502
12 Ohio

 

Very few "southern" states in there, but what difference would it make?  Do you think you can just throw out the words "Bible Belt," and "Bullshit," and make any kind of coherent point about how many religiounists  versus atheists commit murder?


Edited by Moronium, 17 March 2019 - 09:26 AM.


#40 Moronium

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 09:28 AM

Although America  "allows" Atheism (kinda) you can't join the Republican party unless you are an religious.  You must first renounce all atheism before you can even participate, let alone hold office.  How's that for the 'discrimination" which you object to?

 

 

Do you actually believe that?  I suspect you do.



#41 montgomery

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 10:05 AM

What's the motive behind that Adam sitcom schtick anyway? How silly! This because of my suggestion on how to improve an IQ test to a small degree. Or maybe not so small? That would have to be determined.

 

Could it be that intelligence among Americans is dropping and is unusually low for some reason, and it has to be refuted?

 

https://www.psycholo...killing-america

 

That link is a quick introduction to the idea I've suggested. The little Adam clip seems to reinforce the idea. How witty!

 

You have to note how Adam sticks to the shtick of just ruining rather than going deeply into the modern version of what's being talked about...


Edited by montgomery, 17 March 2019 - 10:08 AM.


#42 montgomery

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 10:22 AM

https://en.wikipedia...nd_intelligence

 

What they seem to be saying here is that intuitive thinking, as opposed to analytical or "reflective" thinking, is more predominant in both theistic and atheistic theologies.  But don't EVER try to tell a militant atheist that, eh?  They'll always insist that they are "entirely rational." Often they will SCREAM that claim at you, for extra emphasis.  Maybe they need to be marked down on their IQ scores, eh?

 

At least the average religious person will admit that their belief is not based on reason, but is rather a product of "faith" or "intuition."  In that sense, they seem to be smarter than atheists.

Refer back to the question I suggested be added to IQ tests. How would you answer the question? Would you choose the 10,000 year old earth and sacrifice a few (or several) points for the sake of your faith?

 

There's an ever increasing tactic among believers to just ignore the hard questions put to them that would force them to betray their faith. They would just rather not have to think about it.

 

And on second thought, I think that IQ tests should perhaps have a special section specifically on religious beliefs and indoctrination. Maybe ten questions that dealt with the topic. If I was hiring somebody I would be interested in knowing if he is a clear thinker who has escaped from the childhood indoctrination. Or maybe never did receive it intensely enough to cause him to be saddled with it for the rest of his life.

 

Flummoxed's little sunday school story tells us a lot about why he's able to be a clear thinking atheist. And fwiw, I myself didn't receive a concentrated enough religious brainwashing to hold me to the faith.

 

How about you Moronium? Did you receive a very big dose of it? Be honest now.



#43 montgomery

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 10:41 AM

You have to note how Adam sticks to the shtick of just ruining rather than going deeply into the modern version of what's being talked about...

Peterson is a great contrast to the Adam nonsense! But I'm not completely sold on Peterson because he's always in the habit of asking questions in his lectures which he always answers for himself. However, there's nothing I could disagree with in that lecture, other than he does the class's thinking for them. 



#44 montgomery

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 10:45 AM

Do you actually believe that?  I suspect you do.

It's easy to find links for rebuttals of that notion that Republicans can't be atheists. But that makes it conspicuous on why there is a need for denial. So basically it isn't true, but there's still some truth in the fact that atheists aren't welcomed as easily as sky fairy believers.



#45 Moronium

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 01:33 PM

And on second thought, I think that IQ tests should perhaps have a special section specifically on religious beliefs and indoctrination. 

 

You have apparently missed the entire point of the Harvard study I cited.  Your "special section" would have to be applied to ALL theological positions, including atheism.  

 

Question:  Are you an atheist?

 

Answer:  Yes.

 

OK, then we're marking your score down because you're thinking intuitively rather than analytically.

 

Read it again:

 

...surprisingly, atheism is not the opposite or lack, let alone the enemy, of religion but is the most common form of religion."...Harvard researchers found evidence suggesting that all religious beliefs become more confident when participants are thinking intuitively (atheists and theists each become more convinced). Thus reflective thinking generally tends to create more qualified, doubted belief.

Edited by Moronium, 17 March 2019 - 01:45 PM.


#46 Moronium

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 01:43 PM

“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” (Bertrand Russell).

 



#47 Moronium

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 01:54 PM

Peterson is a great contrast to the Adam nonsense!... there's nothing I could disagree with in that lecture...

 

Peterson was using the example of graduating college as the "target" for which correlations were being sought.  Using that standard, atheists seem to be lagging, eh?

 

A 2016 Pew Center global study on religion and education around the world ranked Jews as the most educated (13.4 years of schooling) followed by Christians (9.3 years of schooling). The religiously unaffiliated—a category which includes atheists, agnostics and those who describe their religion as “nothing in particular”—ranked overall as the third most educated religious group (8.8 years of schooling)

 

 

https://en.wikipedia...nd_intelligence


Edited by Moronium, 17 March 2019 - 01:55 PM.


#48 montgomery

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 02:49 PM

https://en.wikipedia...nd_intelligence

 

What they seem to be saying here is that intuitive thinking, as opposed to analytical or "reflective" thinking, is more predominant in both theistic and atheistic theologies.  But don't EVER try to tell a militant atheist that, eh?  They'll always insist that they are "entirely rational." Often they will SCREAM that claim at you, for extra emphasis.  Maybe they need to be marked down on their IQ scores, eh?

 

At least the average religious person will admit that their belief is not based on reason, but is rather a product of "faith" or "intuition."  In that sense, they seem to be smarter than atheists.

Well Moronium, rejecting reason allows the religious believer to believe!  How deep do you want to bury yourself in your bullshit before you back out graciously? 

 

Rational religious believers know better than to even start trying to argue their sky fairy beliefs against Darwinian evolution and today's science. You must be an entertainer of some sort, you silly as-hole.

 

Keep the comedy routine coming and I'll give you lots of reasons to dislike atheists.



#49 montgomery

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 02:55 PM

You have apparently missed the entire point of the Harvard study I cited.  Your "special section" would have to be applied to ALL theological positions, including atheism.  

 

Question:  Are you an atheist?

 

Answer:  Yes.

 

OK, then we're marking your score down because you're thinking intuitively rather than analytically.

 

Read it again:

If the atheist came out and admitted he was an atheist then he should be rewarded for his analytical thinking. But how do you suppose that could be saying that he wasn't also capable of intuitive thinking? I think the atheist would usually be capable of appying the right sort of thinking as is dictated by the question. 

 

And you've already said you reject rational thinking when it comes to questions on religion! 

Oh, I know! Trust your intuition! That'll do it, eh?



#50 montgomery

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 02:57 PM

 

“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” (Bertrand Russell).

 

 

That's counter-intuitive. I would say the wiser person would be full of confidence. And you would too if you would start to be honest with yourself.



#51 Moronium

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 03:03 PM

Very few "southern" states in there, but what difference would it make?  Do you think you can just throw out the words "Bible Belt," and "Bullshit," and make any kind of coherent point about how many religiounists  versus atheists commit murder?

 

Can religion help reduce violent crime?

 

Two studies suggest the answer is yes, both by creating a moral climate that fosters respect among neighbors and by helping to form individual consciences of young adults.

 

Communities with high levels of active participation in congregations may be particularly effective in reducing assaults, rapes and murders in some poor areas that are most likely to suffer from violent crimes, the research indicates

 

A Baylor University study of more than 15,000 people ages 18 to 28 found that while young adults who considered themselves religious were less likely than others to commit violent or property crimes, those who claimed to be spiritual but set apart from organized religion were more likely to engage in both types of criminal activity.

 

A separate study analyzing crime and religion data from 182 counties in three states found violent crime decreased as greater numbers of people were religiously active in a community.

 

“In the big picture, religious presence seems to matter to the amount of violence and crime in a community,” says Jeffery Ulmer, a professor of sociology and crime, law and justice at Pennsylvania State University who led the county-level study. “It matters to blacks, whites and Latinos.”

 

 

http://blogs.thearda...increased-risk/

 

"...those who claimed to be spiritual but set apart from organized religion were more likely to engage in both types of criminal activity."

 

I just read a story about how a convict who brutally killed a 3 year-old girl was trying to change his legal name to "Eternal Love."  Sounds very "spiritual," eh?


Edited by Moronium, 17 March 2019 - 03:29 PM.