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Theology Overrides Science


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#18 montgomery

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 09:26 AM

I didn't comment on the question of whether or not atheists are held back by American society but I'm extremely interested in hearing you make your case on it. With politicians, and as you contend with the Scotus, you didn't need to make the point because it's very easy to see for even outsiders like this Canadian.

 

Can you make the point on professionals. For example, is there evidence of school teachers being screened in order to keep out the atheists?

 

I would assume that it's a difficult question on which to determine the truth because atheists obviously have to stay in the closet when applying for jobs in many fields. This leads one to believe that declaring oneself to be an atheist would lessen a person's chances of being hired as a teacher. While in the real world it should definitely enhance the applicants chances. 

"

Article Two of the United States Constitution requires the President of the United States to nominate Supreme Court Justices and, with Senate confirmation, requires Justices to be appointed. " https://en.wikipedia...e_United_States

 

The current president appears to surround himself with religious nuts, it is highly unlikely he will nominate an Atheist as one quick example of prejudice at the highest levels. 

 

The republican party has no atheist senators, perhaps an example of selection based on religious beliefs, again discrimination.

 

Are atheists just as likely to get promoted through the ranks, as religious nuts, for example why are foundations needed https://www.military...ce-general.html if regular abuses do not take place. 



#19 montgomery

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 09:41 AM

The science is established on the age of the earth to within a few million years. It wasn't in Thomas Jefferson's time. So for that reason it would be reasonable to include a question on IQ tests such as:

 

A. Do you believe that the earth is close to 4.5 billion years old?

or

B. Do you believe that the earth is closed to 10,000 years old?

 

Choose A or B.

 

There's no opportunity to waffle on the question and to choose the wrong answer would influence the person's final score. And IQ tests don't allow time to think it out! The degree to which it would influence the final score would be important to establish. 

 

Let's assume the person doing the IQ test is applying for a job in some professional field where honesty and clear thinkink are important considerations.

 

How would a religious believer answer the question? Would he compromise his faith in order to gain the points on the IQ test? I think it would put believers in the same position as atheists face when they have to lie in order to be accepted by American society. To what degree, I'm hoping can be established by Flummoxed?

 

The example of the question I chose might not be the best question to ask. Maybe a question on Noah's ark would be a better one? The whole point is, religious believers need to start paying a price for their superstitious beliefs.


Edited by montgomery, 16 March 2019 - 09:43 AM.


#20 Flummoxed

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 10:16 AM

Can you make the point on professionals. For example, is there evidence of school teachers being screened in order to keep out the atheists?

 

I would assume that it's a difficult question on which to determine the truth because atheists obviously have to stay in the closet when applying for jobs in many fields. This leads one to believe that declaring oneself to be an atheist would lessen a person's chances of being hired as a teacher. While in the real world it should definitely enhance the applicants chances. 

 

 

 

 

The science is established on the age of the earth to within a few million years. It wasn't in Thomas Jefferson's time. So for that reason it would be reasonable to include a question on IQ tests such as:

 

A. Do you believe that the earth is close to 4.5 billion years old?

or

B. Do you believe that the earth is closed to 10,000 years old?

 

Choose A or B.

 

There's no opportunity to waffle on the question and to choose the wrong answer would influence the person's final score. And IQ tests don't allow time to think it out! The degree to which it would influence the final score would be important to establish. 

 

Let's assume the person doing the IQ test is applying for a job in some professional field where honesty and clear thinkink are important considerations.

 

 

 

In a religious school teaching creationism as opposed to evolution, would the student doing the IQ test KNOW to question his/her teacher? Equally would the student being taught evolution, think to ask questions, about alternative ideas.

 

The IQ of the person involved especially kids is based on their ability to absorb information and use it. They are not required to question what they are told, unless perhaps something does not make sense to them. 

 

Regarding teaching religion in schools, a religion based school is highly unlikely to select an atheist to teach creationism. The following is an interesting article on the subject of religion in schools https://religionandp...public-schools/

 

ref the IQ test to level the playing field, perhaps the person being giving the test should be asked were they taught creationism/evolution and do they believe what they were taught. Part of the IQ test might involve rating how gullible a person is, as well as testing what they have learned.



#21 montgomery

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 11:02 AM

In a religious school teaching creationism as opposed to evolution, would the student doing the IQ test KNOW to question his/her teacher? Equally would the student being taught evolution, think to ask questions, about alternative ideas.

 

The IQ of the person involved especially kids is based on their ability to absorb information and use it. They are not required to question what they are told, unless perhaps something does not make sense to them. 

 

Regarding teaching religion in schools, a religion based school is highly unlikely to select an atheist to teach creationism. The following is an interesting article on the subject of religion in schools https://religionandp...public-schools/

 

ref the IQ test to level the playing field, perhaps the person being giving the test should be asked were they taught creationism/evolution and do they believe what they were taught. Part of the IQ test might involve rating how gullible a person is, as well as testing what they have learned.

Thanks for you comments! The one thing I have to question is your idea of a child having the ability to question his teacher. At least in the way I read you. I think it would be an example of a child's considerably higher intelligence if he/she were capable of sorting out the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

I say this because of my understanding that religion in the mind of an intelligent person can't stand, if not for the factor of childhood indoctrination. So I'm saying that even moderately intelligent persons of IQ of 100 or even 90 can't be fooled by religious superstition, if not for the early childhood imprinting on their minds by their parents. This happens essentialled before they get to the influence of the schools. It's too late for the teachers! 

 

That's why religious indoctrination by parents is child abuse.

 

Otherwise, you haven't answered the question I asked on whether or not atheists are held back to much of a degree by American society. To start with, I'm asking the question on how it influences the chances of the atheist who is applying for a job as a professional. My opinion for now at least is that for a technician of most sorts, the question would't apply. But that's just my wild guess which I would love to hear proved wrong?

 

I understand that there is a very considerable move on in the US to save religion. This in contrast to the rest of the world taht is gradually moving away from religious beliefs and superstitions.

 

I would suggest that little harm can be done to society if people are allowed to backslide back to sky fairy beliefs when nearing death. That's the crutch religion provides to weaker people. And it's likely the only saving grace for religious beliefs in general. 



#22 montgomery

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 11:07 AM

Thanks for you comments! The one thing I have to question is your idea of a child having the ability to question his teacher. At least in the way I read you. I think it would be an example of a child's considerably higher intelligence if he/she were capable of sorting out the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

I say this because of my understanding that religion in the mind of an intelligent person can't stand, if not for the factor of childhood indoctrination. So I'm saying that even moderately intelligent persons of IQ of 100 or even 90 can't be fooled by religious superstition, if not for the early childhood imprinting on their minds by their parents. This happens essentialled before they get to the influence of the schools. It's too late for the teachers! 

 

That's why religious indoctrination by parents is child abuse.

 

Otherwise, you haven't answered the question I asked on whether or not atheists are held back to much of a degree by American society. To start with, I'm asking the question on how it influences the chances of the atheist who is applying for a job as a professional. My opinion for now at least is that for a technician of most sorts, the question would't apply. But that's just my wild guess which I would love to hear proved wrong?

 

I understand that there is a very considerable move on in the US to save religion. This in contrast to the rest of the world taht is gradually moving away from religious beliefs and superstitions.

 

I would suggest that little harm can be done to society if people are allowed to backslide back to sky fairy beliefs when nearing death. That's the crutch religion provides to weaker people. And it's likely the only saving grace for religious beliefs in general. 

 

It's worth saying here that the only thing that holds Moronium to his religious beliefs is his childhood indoctrination. He's an example of fairly highly intelligent person being trapped by religious beliefs for most likely the rest of his life. (I'm judging Moronium as falling somewhere between 120 and 130 on an IQ test.) I claim to be able to do that because I'm either 130 or sometimes slightly over myself.



#23 montgomery

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 11:09 AM

 

Thanks for you comments! The one thing I have to question is your idea of a child having the ability to question his teacher. At least in the way I read you. I think it would be an example of a child's considerably higher intelligence if he/she were capable of sorting out the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

I say this because of my understanding that religion in the mind of an intelligent person can't stand, if not for the factor of childhood indoctrination. So I'm saying that even moderately intelligent persons of IQ of 100 or even 90 can't be fooled by religious superstition, if not for the early childhood imprinting on their minds by their parents. This happens essentialled before they get to the influence of the schools. It's too late for the teachers! 

 

That's why religious indoctrination by parents is child abuse.

 

Otherwise, you haven't answered the question I asked on whether or not atheists are held back to much of a degree by American society. To start with, I'm asking the question on how it influences the chances of the atheist who is applying for a job as a professional. My opinion for now at least is that for a technician of most sorts, the question would't apply. But that's just my wild guess which I would love to hear proved wrong?

 

I understand that there is a very considerable move on in the US to save religion. This in contrast to the rest of the world taht is gradually moving away from religious beliefs and superstitions.

 

I would suggest that little harm can be done to society if people are allowed to backslide back to sky fairy beliefs when nearing death. That's the crutch religion provides to weaker people. And it's likely the only saving grace for religious beliefs in general. 

 

It's worth saying here that the only thing that holds Moronium to his religious beliefs is his childhood indoctrination. He's an example of fairly highly intelligent person being trapped by religious beliefs for most likely the rest of his life. (I'm judging Moronium as falling somewhere between 120 and 130 on an IQ test.) I claim to be able to do that because I'm either 130 or sometimes slightly over myself. And I'm suggesting that one would have to be closer to the 170 or 180 range in order to rise above childhood indocrination most of the time.

 

Will you tell us what your acore on an IQ test Moronium?

 


Edited by montgomery, 16 March 2019 - 11:10 AM.


#24 Flummoxed

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 12:13 PM

Thanks for you comments! The one thing I have to question is your idea of a child having the ability to question his teacher. At least in the way I read you. I think it would be an example of a child's considerably higher intelligence if he/she were capable of sorting out the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

I say this because of my understanding that religion in the mind of an intelligent person can't stand, if not for the factor of childhood indoctrination. So I'm saying that even moderately intelligent persons of IQ of 100 or even 90 can't be fooled by religious superstition, if not for the early childhood imprinting on their minds by their parents. This happens essentialled before they get to the influence of the schools. It's too late for the teachers! 

 

That's why religious indoctrination by parents is child abuse.

 

Otherwise, you haven't answered the question I asked on whether or not atheists are held back to much of a degree by American society. To start with, I'm asking the question on how it influences the chances of the atheist who is applying for a job as a professional. My opinion for now at least is that for a technician of most sorts, the question would't apply. But that's just my wild guess which I would love to hear proved wrong?

 

I understand that there is a very considerable move on in the US to save religion. This in contrast to the rest of the world taht is gradually moving away from religious beliefs and superstitions.

 

I would suggest that little harm can be done to society if people are allowed to backslide back to sky fairy beliefs when nearing death. That's the crutch religion provides to weaker people. And it's likely the only saving grace for religious beliefs in general. 

 

I recall as an infant, my parents were told by my sunday school teacher not to bring me back, unless I was prepared to believe what I was told. They never sent me back :)

 

I started with the top job in the USA ie the President, what chance does an Atheist have of being elected or even nominated for the Presidency. ZERO that demonstrates discrimination. 

 

Religion is big money in the US and in other parts of the world as well. It is not a charity so why is it not taxed, like any other cooperation. Governments will tax everything else, how is this not discrimination against other cooperations.

 

I agree completely religious indoctrination of children is child abuse. 

 

As people near death, religion might even give them something more to worry about. ie which way are they going up or down :) There gods are not known for forgiveness, a minor failing in life might get them sent the wrong way, regardless of the kiddy fidling priests telling them otherwise as they give them the last rights.

 

Depth of Religious conviction might be a measure of gullibility, and we all fall for lies on occasion.


Edited by Flummoxed, 16 March 2019 - 12:14 PM.


#25 montgomery

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 05:21 PM

I recall as an infant, my parents were told by my sunday school teacher not to bring me back, unless I was prepared to believe what I was told. They never sent me back :)

 

I started with the top job in the USA ie the President, what chance does an Atheist have of being elected or even nominated for the Presidency. ZERO that demonstrates discrimination. 

 

Religion is big money in the US and in other parts of the world as well. It is not a charity so why is it not taxed, like any other cooperation. Governments will tax everything else, how is this not discrimination against other cooperations.

 

I agree completely religious indoctrination of children is child abuse. 

 

As people near death, religion might even give them something more to worry about. ie which way are they going up or down :) There gods are not known for forgiveness, a minor failing in life might get them sent the wrong way, regardless of the kiddy fidling priests telling them otherwise as they give them the last rights.

 

Depth of Religious conviction might be a measure of gullibility, and we all fall for lies on occasion.

I don't think that religion gives people near death somethinig else to worry about. Even a vicious serial killer can be saved if he cooperates and accepts the god. Total and complete bullshit of course.

 

I think that religious belief could enhance a person's propensity to commit vicious crimes, for example the Las Vegas mass shooting. the shooter would  be of the impression that he can  be saved any time he feels he needs to. An hour before his execution is not too late. Big business, as you've mentioned, won't turn away the chance of making money off the most evil in society.

 

It looks like Moronium has gone dark on us now. He's likely too smart to try to defend his ridiculous sky fairy bullshit.



#26 Moronium

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 10:16 PM

I think that religious belief could enhance a person's propensity to commit vicious crimes, for example the Las Vegas mass shooting. the shooter would  be of the impression that he can  be saved any time he feels he needs to.

 

By that reasoning, every atheist would have an increased propensity to commit violent crimes.  Typical of a fanatic to suggest that ONLY the devils on the other side are less than pure, eh?



#27 Moronium

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 10:22 PM

Michael Ruse a philosopher who is also a staunch atheist and a devout neo-darwinist has been severely critical of his fellow atheist friends, Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, et al on a number of grounds, primarily that their approach to religion is extremely naive and argues against nothing but a distorted caricature. (strawman).

 

He made some very good points, including the observation that Dawkins was essentially attempting to "establish" a state religion (atheism) in violation of the First Amendment.


Edited by Moronium, 16 March 2019 - 10:33 PM.


#28 Moronium

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 10:43 PM

You can always go through history and find examples of genocide or war in the name of a religion or a political belief. You could take as an example the Roman empire, and perhaps emperor Constantine and the creation of Christianity in 325AD. The religion he created based around his sun worship is likely responsible for more deaths and genocide than any other religion today, take the crusades for example. 

 

 

I'm glad you are open enough to add "or a political belief."   It is the nature of man to want to slaughter those who oppose their ideological beliefs, but that drive seems to be especially strong in totalitarian atheistic "leaders"  Religion is hardly the only thing people fight about.

 

The "atheists only" communist regimes in the last century are generally estimated to have slaughtered over 100 million of their own people, not even countiing foreign enemies.

 

To even compare that to medieval times is specious.


Edited by Moronium, 16 March 2019 - 10:46 PM.


#29 Moronium

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 11:01 PM

 Rudolph Joseph Rummel was professor of political science who taught at the Indiana University, Yale University, and University of Hawaii. He spent his career studying data on collective violence and war with a view toward helping their resolution or elimination. Rummel coined the term democide for murder by government (compare genocide), such as the Stalinist purges and Mao's Cultural Revolution.

 

According to Rummel, the killings committed by Communist regimes can best be explained as the result of the marriage between absolute power and an absolutist ideology—Marxism. "Of all religions, secular and otherwise", Rummel positions Marxism as "by far the bloodiest – bloodier than the Catholic Inquisition, the various Catholic crusades, and the Thirty Years War between Catholics and Protestants. In practice, Marxism has meant bloody terrorism, deadly purges, lethal prison camps and murderous forced labor, fatal deportations, man-made famines, extrajudicial executions and fraudulent show trials, outright mass murder and genocide."  

 

  Scholars such as R. J. Rummel, Daniel Goldhagen, Richard Pipes and John N. Gray consider Communism as a significant causative factor in mass killings.  The Black Book of Communism claims an association between Communism and criminality, saying:  

 

 "Communist regimes [...] turned mass crime into a full-blown system of government

 

 

In official study materials published in 1948, Mao envisaged that "one-tenth of the peasants" (or about 50,000,000) "would have to be destroyed" to facilitate agrarian reform.

 

https://en.wikipedia...mmunist_regimes

 

Well, ya can't say the commies aren't devoted to their religion, eh?  Their stated goal was to create a "paradise."  Didn't quite work out that way, though


Edited by Moronium, 17 March 2019 - 01:12 AM.


#30 fahrquad

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 12:17 AM

Moronium, IQ tests have to be changed to include questions on religion in order to more closely assess intelligence. The problem that now needs to be dealt with is allowing somebody who's been indoctrinated into believing at childhood and is therefore devoid of intelligence on that topic alone. Just how much it should influence a person's final score is the big question. But all else being equal between two people of equal intelligence on current tests, the one who is not a believer should come out being rated higher. Wouldn't you agree?

 

Can you think of it in terms of a well-rounded aptitude being more important than a very limited aptitude? Did Stephen Hawking have a well-rounded aptitude to go along with his very high IQ? I think so. He certainly was well above the level of any others who were striken with religious beliefs. 

 

The show "Adam Ruins Everything" went into detail about the invalidity of IQ tests the other day.

 

https://www.trutv.co...s-are-bunk.html



#31 GAHD

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 01:31 AM

The show "Adam Ruins Everything" went into detail about the invalidity of IQ tests the other day.

 

https://www.trutv.co...s-are-bunk.html

You have to note how Adam sticks to the shtick of just ruining rather than going deeply into the modern version of what's being talked about...



#32 Moronium

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 02:25 AM

I didn't notice any references to religious beliefs, or lack thereof, in that presentation, for some reason.



#33 Moronium

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 02:48 AM

Some studies have shown a correlation between national average IQ and levels of atheism in society,[6] although others have questioned whether any correlations are due to a complex range of social, economic, educational and historical factors, which interact with religion and IQ in different ways.

 

The definitions of intelligence are controversial since at least 70 definitions have been found among diverse fields of research.  People’s religious ideas are fragmented, loosely connected, and context-dependent, as in all other domains of culture and in life. The beliefs, affiliations, and behaviors of any individual are complex activities that have many sources including culture. As examples of religious incongruence he notes, "Observant Jews may not believe what they say in their Sabbath prayers. Christian ministers may not believe in God. And people who regularly dance for rain don’t do it in the dry season."...Dr. David Hardman of London Metropolitan University says: "It is very difficult to conduct true experiments that would explicate a causal relationship between IQ and religious belief."  A critical review of the research on intelligence and religiosity by Sickles et al. observed that conclusions vary widely in the literature because most studies use inconsistent and poor measures for both religiosity and intelligence.

 

According to anthropologist Jack David Eller, "atheism is quite a common position, even within religion" and that "surprisingly, atheism is not the opposite or lack, let alone the enemy, of religion but is the most common form of religion."...Harvard researchers found evidence suggesting that all religious beliefs become more confident when participants are thinking intuitively (atheists and theists each become more convinced). Thus reflective thinking generally tends to create more qualified, doubted belief.

 

https://en.wikipedia...nd_intelligence

 

What they seem to be saying here is that intuitive thinking, as opposed to analytical or "reflective" thinking, is more predominant in both theistic and atheistic theologies.  But don't EVER try to tell a militant atheist that, eh?  They'll always insist that they are "entirely rational." Often they will SCREAM that claim at you, for extra emphasis.  Maybe they need to be marked down on their IQ scores, eh?

 

At least the average religious person will admit that their belief is not based on reason, but is rather a product of "faith" or "intuition."  In that sense, they seem to be smarter than atheists.


Edited by Moronium, 17 March 2019 - 03:14 AM.


#34 Flummoxed

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 03:46 AM

A couple of facts people are missing. 

Atheism is more popular in Europe than it is in America, this includes Russia.

 

Communists allow religion in society they are not neccesarily atheist. 

 

It seems to have escaped peoples attention that there is a Russian Orthodox Church, which President Putin is a member off. In Communist china Buddhism is popular they are even allowing christianity to be taught. The Dalai Lama in Tibet is a bit of problem, but Tibet is definitely Buddhist. 

 

The purpose of religion in society as I have already stated is to control human minds. It runs amock when people fail to recognize as they grow up that it has no scientific basis.

 

Although amusingly if string theory can have 13 dimensions or more, religion could add a few more to explain their gods. 

 

@ Moronium, what is your definition of god, that people seem to be getting on your case about? There appear to be lots of different non related versions of what gods are. The Pope thinks he speaks for god, do you believe that? Would you obey the Pope if he told you to do something?  


Edited by Flummoxed, 17 March 2019 - 03:47 AM.