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What If The Internet Disappears?


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#18 billvon

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 09:08 PM

On the newer twist to thread direction: Honestly, for me not much would change. I pay with cash, not plastic. 

OK.  What would you pay for?  The stores rely on the Internet to schedule deliveries, pay for deliveries and track deliveries.  No Internet, no deliveries.  At least until they resurrect a decades-old paper based system, which will take weeks at the very least.

 

And where would you get the money?  Cash machines rely on the Internet to check your balance and give you your money.

If i DID need to use plastic I can instruct ignorant youngsters on how to use that slider-machine with a credit card(there's a reason they're still embossed young-uns).

 

 

Do you have a stash of them in your house?  They haven't made any in years.
 

All in all, I could see a couple days-weeks of trasition-pain if a system went down, but it's not likely to be THAT big of a deal. 

 

 

The Internet now enables the power grid, traffic lights, water pumping, freight deliveries and cash machines (to name just a few things.)  It would be a big deal.  The reason you shouldn't worry too much is that the Internet is pretty resilient - not that you'd get along fine without it (you wouldn't.)



#19 GAHD

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 04:34 AM

OK.  What would you pay for?  The stores rely on the Internet to schedule deliveries, pay for deliveries and track deliveries.  No Internet, no deliveries.  At least until they resurrect a decades-old paper based system, which will take weeks at the very least.

 

And where would you get the money?  Cash machines rely on the Internet to check your balance and give you your money.

 

Do you have a stash of them in your house?  They haven't made any in years.
 

 

The Internet now enables the power grid, traffic lights, water pumping, freight deliveries and cash machines (to name just a few things.)  It would be a big deal.  The reason you shouldn't worry too much is that the Internet is pretty resilient - not that you'd get along fine without it (you wouldn't.)

In order: Same things as always.

No, not the important ones, they mainly use dial-in phone ordering and pay via the same monthly bill and auth-recipt method they have for decades.

No amazon deliveries maybe, but food and gas and parts will be fine.

It's called an Automated Teller Machine because it performs the functions of a teller at a bank branch, who can still do just fine without the net. (Do you even bank? too young?)

I have one, I KNOW there is at least one at every gas station around me, as well as all three grocery stores as fail-safe to if the DSL link for interac goes-out. Weather young N00bs know how to USE one is another question(lol).

No it doesn't(electrical grid), that's direct-feedback at provider and synced via the laws of physics. aything out-of phase becomes load and is forced into phase by the short. Learn to electricity.

No it doesn't(traffic), that's a municipal network everywhere I've ever worked on them, every single one I've worked on has a junction box with timers servicing a small area.
No it doesn't (water pumping) capacity is inferred at pump by back-pressure in every grid I've seen.
Some freight, yes, most of the dispatchers I know are still phone-jockies though. :)
Cash macheines(second time, ok more detail) run off dedicated server links in a private hard-wired network last I checked, physically separate from standard internet though with some cross-talk at specific nodes.

It would be a minor inconvenience, you lack knowledge and imagination on the systems in place already.

It is resilient yes, much like cellular networks.
I'd do fine, because I understand the systems already in place in society. Sounds like you'd curl up and sob without instagram and etsy?



#20 hazelm

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 05:28 AM

I am  hanging around to teach bankers how to figure compound interest,  having once had a supervisor of a savings bank department tell me she was embarrassed that she does not know how.  Of course, they still have their little black books.  So, no problem there.  Just thinking.

 

As for whether or not the internet can completely crash world-wide,  I have heard some very well educated computer people say it can and just may.  We shall see.  After a small problem with some new machinery at a hospital, I wondered what will keep all those life-saving machines running in case of total failure.



#21 billvon

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 03:53 PM

It's called an Automated Teller Machine because it performs the functions of a teller at a bank branch, who can still do just fine without the net. (Do you even bank? too young?)

 

 

Yep.  And that ATM connects to the net via a protocol called PPP (look it up.)  Then it authorizes your money withdrawal.

There's really no tube that goes from the bank to your ATM.  It goes through the network. It may be a very captive and very well protected network - but it functions like every other network out there in the vast matrix we call the Internet.

 

No it doesn't(electrical grid), that's direct-feedback at provider and synced via the laws of physics. aything out-of phase becomes load and is forced into phase by the short. Learn to electricity.

 

 

Nope.  They monitor loads and generation via SCADA (look it up.)  And that communicates via the network.  "Learn to electricity?"  When mocking someone, it helps to not look like someone who can't even manage grade school grammar.

 

No it doesn't(traffic), that's a municipal network everywhere I've ever worked on them, every single one I've worked on has a junction box with timers servicing a small area.

 

Sure, if you live in a small Midwestern town.  Every city that has had traffic issues has long since replaced their "junction box with timers" with a more integrated system to ease traffic problems.

 

 

You have a lot to learn about how the modern TCP/IP network works, and what we use the net for.  People who do nothing but surf the web think that that's all the web is.  But it carries information that enables commerce, shipping and power deliveries.  It isn't just for your Instagram and porn.  Losing it would be a serious blow to the US economy.



#22 GAHD

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 12:20 PM

I'm going to leave the rest of your fantasies alone for now, and just point out one glaring bit. You DO need to Learn2Electricity.


Nope.  They monitor loads and generation via SCADA (look it up.)  And that communicates via the network.  "Learn to electricity?"  When mocking someone, it helps to not look like someone who can't even manage grade school grammar.

https://science.hows...d-response2.htm
Take a look at the bottom there. Note how they're talking about "Boulder, Colo." and how they WANT to turn it into the FIRST smart grid? Right now there is some pre-natal form of data-feedbad overlayed on the grid. It is MOSTLY, however, time-lag-to-load by C putting a load on the generators at the power stations that tells them anything about the loads being required. The only "smart" part about it is predictive spreadsheets that say " most people get off work at either 3,4,5, or 6. There will be a spike as they all turn on their lights, microwave, range, and TV." 

I wasn't intending to mock you per-se. I was, and currently AM hiliting what I see to be an ignorance on your part. I am sorely tempted to do so now, what with your fantasies of technologies being integrated Hollywood-style in a large portion of the north Americas. You can't "make it dark" for your action-hero in a building from a candy-van parked across the street with some computers and a jaunty transvestite hacker. It doesn't work that way bub. You also can't "make the lights green."

Most electrical systems in NA have been in place since the mid 1960's, 1890 commercial wiring in some places still being used, household and municipal wiring in various places being fairly regularly from the 1920-1940's. You familiar with the hoover dam? It's only NOW starting to get some data upgrades. The "smart grid" is in it's INFANCY and quite frankly is still mostly hard-logic fuse-points where they can afford to put them in to try and avoid another coastal blackout from a too-integrated-grid over-extending and stalling the generators. It is simply not economically viable to upgrade and "network" the wast spiderweb of cabling.

If you've got a problem with my lack of grammar in one instance where I am quite literally telling you to go LEARN to DO something so you UNDERSTAND why what you are saying is the equivalent of talking with farts, too bad. Learn2Electricity. GitGud.


Edited by GAHD, 08 November 2018 - 12:31 PM.


#23 exchemist

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 12:40 PM

I'm going to leave the rest of your fantasies alone for now, and just point out one glaring bit. You DO need to Learn2Electricity.

https://science.hows...d-response2.htm
Take a look at the bottom there. Note how they're talking about "Boulder, Colo." and how they WANT to turn it into the FIRST smart grid? Right now there is some pre-natal form of data-feedbad overlayed on the grid. It is MOSTLY, however, time-lag-to-load by C putting a load on the generators at the power stations that tells them anything about the loads being required. The only "smart" part about it is predictive spreadsheets that say " most people get off work at either 3,4,5, or 6. There will be a spike as they all turn on their lights, microwave, range, and TV." 

I wasn't intending to mock you per-se. I was, and currently AM hiliting what I see to be an ignorance on your part. I am sorely tempted to do so now, what with your fantasies of technologies being integrated Hollywood-style in a large portion of the north Americas. You can't "make it dark" for your action-hero in a building from a candy-van parked across the street with some computers and a jaunty transvestite hacker. It doesn't work that way bub. You also can't "make the lights green."

Most electrical systems in NA have been in place since the mid 1960's, 1890 commercial wiring in some places still being used, household and municipal wiring in various places being fairly regularly from the 1920-1940's. You familiar with the hoover dam? It's only NOW starting to get some data upgrades. The "smart grid" is in it's INFANCY and quite frankly is still mostly hard-logic fuse-points where they can afford to put them in to try and avoid another coastal blackout from a too-integrated-grid over-extending and stalling the generators. It is simply not economically viable to upgrade and "network" the wast spiderweb of cabling.

If you've got a problem with my lack of grammar in one instance where I am quite literally telling you to go LEARN to DO something so you UNDERSTAND why what you are saying is the equivalent of talking with farts, too bad. Learn2Electricity. GitGud.

"hiliting"??



#24 OceanBreeze

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 03:06 AM

"hiliting"??

 

You did better than I did. I thought it was hilting. 

 

hiliting


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#25 exchemist

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 03:24 AM

You did better than I did. I thought it was hilting. 

 

hiliting

Ah, so it is actually a sort of (linguistically collapsed) word! How interesting. Thanks. 



#26 GAHD

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 10:02 AM

"hiliting"??

I'm surprised it wasn't the WAST that stumped you. ;) They're both intentionally obscure lexicon.

I was hoping to magnify the Dunning–Kruger effect that is seen here. The internet is a great convenience after all, but it is NOT mandatory nor ubiquitous in it's infiltration of basic functions. 

 

You did better than I did. I thought it was hilting. 

 

hiliting

Hilting is a great misread, I'm going to have to find somewhere to use it. Maybe if I get around to explaining how physically seperate and dedicated wires are often lease/owned by/for the bank information networks because regular telecom is too insecure? Nah, I'll save it for something that's actually fitting.

 

Yep....You have a lot to learn about how the modern TCP/IP network works, and what we use the net for.  People who do nothing but surf the web think that that's all the web is.  But it carries information that enables commerce, shipping and power deliveries.  It isn't just for your Instagram and porn.  Losing it would be a serious blow to the US economy.

 

  I haven't updated to IPV6 protocols, but I can  wire and program a UART by hand for everything up to 2015...I still have a crunch-whistle covered in dust on my shelf too. If both those terms/items are confusing to you, don't worry, the internet can solve it for you.

Blow to wallstreet, sure. All the exchanges are super-dependent. Economy would take a blast just from that. You most DEFINITELY overplay the integration of datacomm in the other sectors though. :)

Or, perhaps I just have too much faith in people being able to function with just their meaty bits like every generation before 1980's did. Very possible I'm projecting intelligence and ingenuity onto beings that were robbed of sapience.
(3:20 ish being the relevant part)


Edited by GAHD, 10 November 2018 - 10:06 AM.

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#27 OceanBreeze

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 10:31 AM

I'm surprised it wasn't the WAST that stumped you. ;) They're both intentionally obscure lexicon.

I was hoping to magnify the Dunning–Kruger effect that is seen here. The internet is a great convenience after all, but it is NOT mandatory nor ubiquitous in it's infiltration of basic functions. 

 



 

 

I wast hoping that was simply a typo for vast, but typos are usually created by fat fingering letters that are close together on the keyboard.

As for the use of collapsed word forms, I thought that was a relatively new phenomenon caused by the modern craze for texting.

Then again, such shorthand usage has been around for quite a long time, as evidenced by sentences like this one: 'Twas the night before Christmas, when all thro' the house . . .circa 1823

 

 

Or, perhaps I just have too much faith in people being able to function with just their meaty bits like every generation before 1980's did. Very possible I'm projecting intelligence and ingenuity onto beings that were robbed of sapience.

 

 

 

Just remember 

Just looking at your smartphone makes you less intelligent, study finds
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#28 hazelm

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 10:56 AM

I'm not sure that we pre-internet people did any better with our skills.  After all, we created the idiot box and look what it got  us.  It is going to cost us a lot more to lose the internet but, while we have it, it does make a lot of things easier.  The only problem I see  is that we aren't preparing for "disaster".  As GAHD said, "it's the economy" that will bring us down.  Who will step in?  Humans are being replaced by robots.  Will robots be able to manage the economic world?  I don't think so but I know less than the cat  about internet.  It takes a long time to educate a person to even work, to say nothing of how to do a particular job.

 

The dark shadow that I see is those who keep saying "it can't happen".   We pre-internet people have lived long enough to know that little motto is dead in the water. 

 

Tell us, GAHD.  If the entire internet did crash, how long do you think it would take to get it back  up and running in good condition?  Remembering that it will be a world-wide cooperative job.  And are we preparing certain people to be ready to do the job fast?  Will all our old records still be there to retrieve once we are back up and running?  Will you be able to prove you really did own a huge hunk of AT&T or some such?

 

My mind runs away with me. :-)



#29 Deepwater6

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 12:14 AM

I have to say I'm leaning towards GAHD's view on this. As I supervise 5 water plants that serve the suburbs outside Philadelphia, I can tell you that all of my plants are on a closed SCADA network "for now". However our main office, which I refer to as (spaceball one) is currently having our Process Control group have all of our plants send real time SCADA info to the main office so they can exercise control over our operations.

 

My combined send-out is roughly 120 million gallons a day (MGD) through the plants. Which in the grand scheme of things compared to a large city or county is not a game changer.There is one thing that I insist upon from the Process Control team whenever they attempt to make changes at my facilities, My demand is always the same, I insist that I retain the right for manual control in one form or the other over the process.

 

I don't have a Twitter or Facebook account, nor do I want one, but my hope is that if the internet should disappear forever, that these two avenues of social media never make a comeback. I believe they cause more trouble than they're worth. Just my humble opinion that humanity will go on, in one form or another without this form of communication.


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#30 hazelm

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 05:02 AM

I have to say I'm leaning towards GAHD's view on this. As I supervise 5 water plants that serve the suburbs outside Philadelphia, I can tell you that all of my plants are on a closed SCADA network "for now". However our main office, which I refer to as (spaceball one) is currently having our Process Control group have all of our plants send real time SCADA info to the main office so they can exercise control over our operations.

 

My combined send-out is roughly 120 million gallons a day (MGD) through the plants. Which in the grand scheme of things compared to a large city or county is not a game changer.There is one thing that I insist upon from the Process Control team whenever they attempt to make changes at my facilities, My demand is always the same, I insist that I retain the right for manual control in one form or the other over the process.

 

I don't have a Twitter or Facebook account, nor do I want one, but my hope is that if the internet should disappear forever, that these two avenues of social media never make a comeback. I believe they cause more trouble than they're worth. Just my humble opinion that humanity will go on, in one form or another without this form of communication.

I totally agree.  Good luck on that. 



#31 billvon

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 01:28 PM

 

My combined send-out is roughly 120 million gallons a day (MGD) through the plants. Which in the grand scheme of things compared to a large city or county is not a game changer.There is one thing that I insist upon from the Process Control team whenever they attempt to make changes at my facilities, My demand is always the same, I insist that I retain the right for manual control in one form or the other over the process.

Right.  But when you can't get chlorine or spare parts - will you be able to keep the system running?



#32 Deepwater6

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 08:21 PM

Right.  But when you can't get chlorine or spare parts - will you be able to keep the system running?

No argument with the fact that for a period of time humanity will lose some synergy and life may become more cumbersome for the masses, but there are several other methods to treat water. It may take some time to set up these on-site chemical generation systems or UV, but I feel confident we could figure it out.

 

I'm more concerned my midnight shift operators will not be able to bring up solitaire on the computer.  :shocked: 


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#33 GAHD

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 04:13 PM

I laugh about the spare parts thing. Heay Deepwater, are your parts pre-order standard from amazon(or other internet box store), or custom-run from a local millwright and/or ME?



#34 Cezarr99

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 11:42 AM

I think it will be a complete disaster)