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Metallic Super-Composite Oxide


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#1 VictorMedvil

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 11:59 AM

I was wondering what would happen if you mixed Iron Oxide,Aluminium oxide, Copper Oxide together then dissolved it in sulfuric acid causing a redox reaction.

 

H2SO4CuO + Fe2O3  Al2O-> H2SCuFe2Al2O11


Edited by VictorMedvil, 05 August 2018 - 12:12 PM.


#2 GAHD

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 02:32 AM

I'm guessing an exploded beaker, Probably end up with some metal sulfides in a slime of peroxide. The thermal release from (I am assuming powdered) oxides would be a large amount of joules. You'd need a large ratio of Sulfuric by molar to get the reaction really going, but after that it should be an almost standard thermite reaction again, depending on ratios.



#3 VictorMedvil

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 02:47 AM

I'm guessing an exploded beaker, Probably end up with some metal sulfides in a slime of peroxide. The thermal release from (I am assuming powdered) oxides would be a large amount of joules. You'd need a large ratio of Sulfuric by molar to get the reaction really going, but after that it should be an almost standard thermite reaction again, depending on ratios.

 

Ya, see I kinda thought that but would it cause the Fe,Al and Cu along with S to bond into a molecule with Oxygen because of the electron transport chain of the Thermite reaction. Secondly, my beakers don't explode they are borosilcate, I have done several reactions in them that produce energy and never get a crack.


Edited by VictorMedvil, 06 August 2018 - 02:48 AM.


#4 exchemist

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 05:23 AM

I was wondering what would happen if you mixed Iron Oxide,Aluminium oxide, Copper Oxide together then dissolved it in sulfuric acid causing a redox reaction.

 

H2SO4CuO + Fe2O3  Al2O-> H2SCuFe2Al2O11

You are simply going to make the corresponding sulphates, aren't you?

 

It is not going to be a redox reaction, because the metals are already in their highest oxidation states in the oxide. Sulphuric acid, being an oxidising agent as well as an acid, is not going to reduce them.

 

Metal oxides tend to be basic and so will react with a strong acid such as sulphuric. The O2- will react with the 2H+ from the sulphuric acid, forming water, and leaving the metal cations Cu2+, Fe3+ and Al3+ and the sulphate anion SO4 2-.  So what you have is not a redox reaction but a neutralisation reaction. You will get some pretty blue, green and white crystals. 

 

The comparison with the Thermite reaction is misplaced. That is indeed a redox reaction but the essence of it is the presence of a reactive metal powder, such as powdered Al, which can abstract oxygen from the oxide of a less reactive metal, such as Fe, reducing the second metal and oxidising the first, e.g. Fe2O3 + 2Al -> 2Fe + Al2O3. 


Edited by exchemist, 06 August 2018 - 05:27 AM.


#5 VictorMedvil

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 06:07 AM

Well, this is what the flask looks like when I reacted H2SO4 Al2O3 Fe2O  Any idea of what that is?

 

als26h.jpg

 

Next I think I will try Titanium Oxide, Silicon oxide, Copper oxide,Zinc Oxide, Aluminium oxide, and Iron Oxide then permutate them to see all the different versions of this material. There will be more pictures coming up, I am seeking a materials like carbon nano-tubes or nano-particles. Let's see if we can't reach a hyper oxidation state. I want to see metallic oxygen bonds.

 

 

Note: It doesn't look like a sulfate.

 

SC055.jpg

 

Dry-alum-Powder-1-300x287.png


Edited by VictorMedvil, 06 August 2018 - 07:21 AM.


#6 exchemist

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 07:51 AM

Well, this is what the flask looks like when I reacted H2SO4 Al2O3 Fe2O  Any idea of what that is?

 

 

 

Next I think I will try Titanium Oxide, Silicon oxide, Copper oxide,Zinc Oxide, Aluminium oxide, and Iron Oxide then permutate them to see all the different versions of this material. There will be more pictures coming up, I am seeking a materials like carbon nano-tubes or nano-particles. Let's see if we can't reach a hyper oxidation state. I want to see metallic oxygen bonds.

 

 

Note: It doesn't look like a sulfate.

 

 

 

 

I don't know how you can say it doesn't look like sulphates. You have a greenish/whiteish mixture there. My guess is you have a mixture of all three sulphates. If copper sulphate is not fully hydrated it will be white - should go blue when more water is added.

 

All three sulphates are water-soluble, so if you try to dissolve them up in distilled water, filter off any unreacted oxides that may be making it look dirty  - or let it settle and decant the supernatant liquid, leaving the sludge behind - and then from the clear liquid you may be able to evaporate the water slowly and get some decent crystals, instead of this mixture. Why not try it and see? 

 

But I must warn you that treating metal oxides with sulphuric acid is not likely to give you anything but boring old sulphates.

 

What do you mean by a "hyper" oxidation state? There are Fe +4 and Fe +6 oxidation states known, but these are rare and you won't get to them using sulphuric acid. Similarly you can get Cu +3 in rare cases, but not with sulphuric acid. (You have no chance at all of getting Al in any oxidation state >3 since that would involve breaking into the electron shell below the valence shell. The ionisation energy for that process is 120eV, way above what chemistry can do for you.) 

 

As for "metallic oxygen bonds", I do not understand this. Metallic bonding involves delocalised valence electrons, for which you need an element in its reduced form that is willing to give up one or more electrons into the delocalised system - in other words a metal. How can oxygen play a role in this?    

 

P.S. None of this appears to relate to carbon nano-tubes, which are formed of elemental carbon, i.e. in an oxidation state of zero. 


Edited by exchemist, 06 August 2018 - 07:52 AM.


#7 VictorMedvil

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 07:54 AM

I don't know how you can say it doesn't look like sulphates. You have a greenish/whiteish mixture there. My guess is you have a mixture of all three sulphates. If copper sulphate is not fully hydrated it will be white - should go blue when more water is added.

 

All three sulphates are water-soluble, so if you try to dissolve them up in distilled water, filter off any unreacted oxides that may be making it look dirty  - or let it settle and decant the supernatant liquid, leaving the sludge behind - and then from the clear liquid you may be able to evaporate the water slowly and get some decent crystals, instead of this mixture. Why not try it and see? 

 

But I must warn you that treating metal oxides with sulphuric acid is not likely to give you anything but boring old sulphates.

 

What do you mean by a "hyper" oxidation state? There are Fe +4 and Fe +6 oxidation states known, but these are rare and you won't get to them using sulphuric acid. Similarly you can get Cu +3 in rare cases, but not with sulphuric acid. (You have no chance at all of getting Al in any oxidation state >3 since that would involve breaking into the electron shell below the valence shell. The ionisation energy for that process is 120eV, way above what chemistry can do for you.) 

 

As for "metallic oxygen bonds", I do not understand this. Metallic bonding involves delocalised valence electrons, for which you need an element in its reduced form that is willing to give up one or more electrons into the delocalised system - in other words a metal. How can oxygen play a role in this?    

 

P.S. None of this appears to relate to carbon nano-tubes, which are formed of elemental carbon, i.e. in an oxidation state of zero. 

 

I dunno, I am bored Exchemist. Do Sulfates bind with each-other, In any unique structures, what about if you mix several together in the same synthesis, that is how bored I am.


Edited by VictorMedvil, 06 August 2018 - 07:56 AM.


#8 exchemist

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 08:30 AM

I dunno, I am bored Exchemist. Do Sulfates bind with each-other, In any unique structures, what about if you mix several together in the same synthesis, that is how bored I am.

There are double salt sulphates involving Al - the "alums" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alum - but these involve a second cation with one +ve charge not 2 or 3. I cannot think of any with a 2+ and a 3+ cation, offhand. 



#9 VictorMedvil

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 08:35 AM

There are double salt sulphates involving Al - the "alums" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alum - but these involve a second cation with one +ve charge not 2 or 3. I cannot think of any with a 2+ and a 3+ cation, offhand. 

Well, I bought all the metal oxides and Am screwing with them, lastly I will mess with graphene oxide, I am trying to find something new........ .and interesting but you were right it melted instantly in water thus i threw it out,(Not being worth one of my borosilcate flasks) nothing special about that. I thought that maybe they would have bound into something.


Edited by VictorMedvil, 06 August 2018 - 08:39 AM.


#10 GAHD

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 08:40 AM

I dunno, I am bored

https://www.khanacad...ation-reduction

Oh look, hours of fun!

Edit: You can try screwing with the ambient pressure, or altering the voltage plane of solution if you want to get "different" results from standard. That's if you're just screwing around looking for a happy accident.


Edited by GAHD, 06 August 2018 - 08:42 AM.


#11 VictorMedvil

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 08:45 AM

https://www.khanacad...ation-reduction

Oh look, hours of fun!

Edit: You can try screwing with the ambient pressure, or altering the voltage plane of solution if you want to get "different" results from standard. That's if you're just screwing around looking for a happy accident.

 

That's what I am going to do, run like 1 million volts through each one and see what happens or maybe bombard them with gamma radiation or positrons during synthesis, I gotta say inorganic chemistry is very boring compared to my usual biochemistry and genetics stuff I do.  *Pulls out the Sodium 22.*.


Edited by VictorMedvil, 06 August 2018 - 08:49 AM.


#12 exchemist

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 09:32 AM

That's what I am going to do, run like 1 million volts through each one and see what happens or maybe bombard them with gamma radiation or positrons during synthesis, I gotta say inorganic chemistry is very boring compared to my usual biochemistry and genetics stuff I do.  *Pulls out the Sodium 22.*.

Well it will be "boring" if you stick to metal oxides and run-of-the-mill reagents, and if you just react them without any idea of what you are doing. This chemistry is well-known and there will not be any surprises. 

 

Well, I bought all the metal oxides and Am screwing with them, lastly I will mess with graphene oxide, I am trying to find something new........ .and interesting but you were right it melted instantly in water thus i threw it out,(Not being worth one of my borosilcate flasks) nothing special about that. I thought that maybe they would have bound into something.

You might care to read this paper on the chemistry of graphene oxide before trying anything. It could give you some ideas of what is worth trying and what will be a waste of time:

 

http://utw10193.utwe...ffsPDFs/211.pdf



#13 VictorMedvil

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 12:01 PM

Well, I am trying to make a inorganic Hybrid Nano-particle as practice but it seems I may have bought the wrong reagents possibly. 


Edited by VictorMedvil, 06 August 2018 - 12:01 PM.


#14 VictorMedvil

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 06:04 AM

Whatever, I am just going to make Carbon Nano-tubes screw the other nano-particles, this is a test to see if I can find a method that a nano-machine could make carbon nano-tubes with.

 

This looks promising for Nano-machine synthesis.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1007.1062.pdf

 

 

"We develop a new chemical route to prepare carbon nanotubes at room temperature. Graphite powder is immersed in a mixed solution of nitric and sulfuric acid with potassium chlorate. After heating the solution up to 70°C and leaving them in the air for 3 days, we obtained carbon nanotube bundles. This process could provide an easy and inexpensive method for the preparation of carbon nanotubes."


Edited by VictorMedvil, 07 August 2018 - 06:06 AM.