Help In Identifying A Psychological Condition (If It Has A Name)

[DrKrettin]

We have a friend who has some peculiar psychological traits, and I'm trying to see whether they fit into a known psychological category. I use the word "friend" for lack of a better word, because she is the same age as my children and relates to my wife much better than to me.

 

As a background, both my wife and I have recognised after a long period of investigation that we are both somewhere on the Asperger's spectrum, or mild autism if you like. Having come to this conclusion, we recognise the same traits in our friend, but to a much greater degree. But there are aspects which are beyond that. 

 

Here is a summary of her characteristics:

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Intelligent, degree in maths.

 

Has an Asperger's diagnosis

 

Has had therapy for body issues, eating disorders. Refuses to exercise, is seriously overweight.

 

Pre-therapy held extreme and critical moral views and excessive prudishness. Age 40, still a virgin. No relationship.

 

Lives in her computer.  Is obsessed by computer technology, especially virtual currency. Has all the latest Apple stuff.

 

Obsessed with strong female actresses/celebrities, sequentially, throughout her life. (A therapist suggested that her "friendship" with my wife was just an extension of this attachment to strong women)

 

Obsessed by self-imposed and seemingly arbitrary rules which she applies rigorously. Does not do housework but is obsessed with washing hands.

 

Is extreme in restrictions, especially dietary, to the point where she is eating carrots and quark.

 

Has been a lifelong vegetarian, against a background of maternal psychological abuse. This vegetarianism extends to insane restrictions such as refusing any product whatsoever which might contain trace animal products (but is blind with wine and chocolate). Refuses rational discussion on this.

 

Has no friends of her own age, has only two friends, female, 20 years older than herself.

 

Avoids all social interaction 

 

Cannot identify the appropriate level of intimate detail when verbalising thoughts which she needs to express (e.g. detail about consistency of menstrual blood - too much info for anybody)

 

Has no concept of personal boundaries, which is a clear trait in the entire family, especially the parents. E.g. sharing beds with adult daughter, total lack of bathroom privacy, interference in every aspect of each others lives, mother still buys her clothes, etc. (This is the characteristic which baffles me most and is the most difficult to deal with)

 

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The above summary gives a confusing picture of a mixture of Asperger's, OCPD, Tourette's and everything else. One might get the impression that she should be sectioned immediately, but she seems to function normally on some levels, had a secure job in a bank for several years, her own apartment, and is a kind gentle person. I see her as a girl who reached puberty at which point her emotional development stopped. Extremely naïve about everything. How she got a degree in maths is a mystery to me.

 

The impetus for this post is to try and deal with somebody who I think has attached herself to us and depends on us (mainly my wife) for psychological support, so we feel obliged to try and help as best we can. And she is a nice person.

 

Any ideas?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DrKrettin]

Many of these traits are not generally traits of a mental ill-health.

 

I'm looking for something to describe the psychological state, rather than a diagnosis of ill-health

 

The only thing you should really elaborate on is the boundaries thing.

 

The lack of being able to verbally express herself may be related to the autistic/aspergers spectrum. Does she have any other conditions that have been identified, such as semantic pragmatic disorder? Being introvert, avoiding social interaction is not always a bad trait, many of us tend to get quieter as we get older. I would not go as far to say these show antisocial behaviour due to a mental health condition, such as being a sociopath for instance.

 

 

More details would nice.

 

 

No semantic pragmatic disorder, but considering her level of education, she is hopeless at explaining anything. Yes, we get quieter when we get older, but she's 40 and she hasn't ever been through a noisy stage, not even as a student.

 

The boundaries issue is an interesting one, and involves her family of parents and two sisters. It is as if the whole family does not identify each other as separate entities, but they all treat each other as extensions of themselves. As one example: a sister is involved in a custody issue about her young child. The ex-partner, father, is claiming legal access. The sister has legal representation in court, but her parents have been writing letters to the court telling them what a **** the father of their grandchild is. That got so bad that a court official had to intervene and tell them to stop, at which point they wanted to write to social services, totally oblivious to the absurdity of their action. Our friend has recounted all these proceedings to us, in agonizing detail and with a maximum of drama, as though she were the mother involved, not her sister, and not actually aware that she is only the aunt of the child involved.

 

Other boundary issues are so numerous and in themselves trivial but weird. The family treat it as unusual that somebody locks the bathroom door, and even object to it: (What have you got to hide?). When the parents visit our friend, the mother treats it as normal that she shares a bed with her. When they visit the sister (38), the mother shares a bed with her daughter and two-year-old grandchild, and father sleeps in the same room, even when there are two other bedrooms. The parents visited us once, for lunch, and I had to get up and leave after several hours of their not taking a hint that lunch does not last until 18.00. During that conversation, the only thing I can remember was the mother telling us which hand she uses to wipe her bottom (I do not have this info for any other person). When our friend's guinea pig died, the mother wanted to visit (a 5-hour flight). The list seems endless. We strongly suspect, as does a therapist who worked with her, that she was sexually abused as a child and that it is all too buried to go there.

[DrKrettin]

I am trying to build a picture of the person and compare it to other people I am aware of. So you have talked about this sharing bedrooms thing, can you explain or share with me, what troubles you with it the most? Is it an age issue? What is her mental age, do you have one for her in your mind?

 

You cannot assume she was sexually abused. For instance, you explain she is a virgin, so she identifies as never having sex. She embraces powerful women, is this a reflection of her sexuality, or is it something she wished she was as an individual?

 

Is she attracted to all types of powerful females, like J Rowling for instance?

 

It is just a suspicion that there was some kind of profound disturbance during childhood. We hear all kinds of things about her family which build up a disturbing picture, so I would not dismiss the abuse, but nor would I assume it.

 

She seems to be attracted primarily to actresses and celebrities, rather than strong women in general. 

 

The problem is of course that everything is being filtered through my amateurish account of her behaviour, and thus anecdotal at best. If any other issues occur to me, I'll post them.

[DrKrettin]

This is in contradiction to what you told me earlier. You said she was attracted to your wife because she was a strong women... yet, I assume, your wife is not famous?

 

Not really in contradiction, just generally obsessed by actresses and celebrities, and clearly being clingy and dependent on the wife. This may simply be 1) wife is 20 years older with a relatively infinite amount of common sense and experience 2) Wife is actually a local celebrity, well known in our very small circle for having a news site which is well respected. There may well be some kudos in being a friend of hers.

 

Just seen the other post - I don't dismiss the lesbian idea, but she admits to having fantasized about boys from the age of 8. At the age of 11 she tried to chat up a boy who responded by telling her that she was repulsive. She seems to have taken that as a universal opinion, obviously deeply affected by it. (She's potentially quite attractive, in fact)

[DrKrettin]

Have you ever asked her whether she was abused, how deep does the rabbit hole go, do you know?

 

No we haven't. We persuaded her to have therapy with a (qualified) friend, who identified serious problems arising from childhood. But even she did not try to plumb the depths to that extent. The friend gave that up way before they had accomplished anything, which makes you suspect that she was frightened about what might get revealed. It was not a financial decision.

 

I mentioned earlier that she seems to behave like an immature teenage girl (infinite sharing of detail about personal crap etc.). She seems to treat the wife as a kind of teenage friend with whom she can automatically share really boring trivia (Phonecall: "Just been to the vet, and he said the lump on my guinea pig.......") and assumes the wife is interested, even though it is hard to see why anybody would be.

 

I have no idea why a 40 year old woman behaves like that, hence this thread.

[Maine farmer]

It may or may not be of any help to realize that some people are just not right, and not much can be done about it. 

[Maine farmer]

I object to this statement.

 

 

There is no justice in saying this person is not ''right.''

 

 

To accept that, I want a definition of normal. And then I want to know why people should conform to normality... because it's a boring existence just replicating each other without differentiation.

Okay, please accept my apologies for my careless use of language.  I agree that "not right" is insensitive, and I am sorry.  

 

Perhaps a better thing to say, is we can either accept people as they are without diagnosis, or choose to avoid those that cause us to feel discomfort or annoyance.

 

I have known people who have been diagnosed with different psychological conditions for whom the diagnosis has not proven particularly helpful, and in some cases prescribed medicines have had nasty side effects that caused more harm than the condition being treated.

 

 

Just for the record, I have been described as "crazy" by some people, sometimes just because of my choice of occupation.

[DrKrettin]

 

Perhaps a better thing to say, is we can either accept people as they are without diagnosis, or choose to avoid those that cause us to feel discomfort or annoyance.

 

 

 

That is a pragmatic view and fair enough. But the relationship with this friend grew very slowly and her state of mind only became gradually apparent after some time, by which time it was clear that she very unhappy in herself and that some friendly support might be helpful. My wife has spent a considerable amount of time and effort in getting her to become aware of her state of mind, but also finding it stressful because she is not a trained psychologist. The woman probably needs some professional help to come to terms with her state of mind, but refuses to go there, thus relies on my wife for advice in absolutely everything, which is not fair. My wife can't really cope with this, but we are at a loss to know how to deal with it. Just dumping her does not seem like a civilised thing to do. I had the idea that some kind of identification of a psychological state might help us to deal with her. 

 

Some years ago the friend had another older woman as a companion, and seemed inseparable, in a relationship which must have been similar to the one she has with my wife. That relationship ended abruptly when said friend promptly emigrated and then died, and I suspect that this was the only way that woman could think of to get out of the situation. (But I don't think the dying was part of the plan.)

[OceanBreeze]

I don’t presume to know much about this subject, so take whatever I say with a half-grain of whatever. From what you have said, it almost jumps out of the page as a dependent personality disorder. But, whatever name that I or anyone else tries to pin on it, one thing is certain; this woman needs professional help and your wife, and you, need to be relieved of the burden she is placing on both of you.

I suspect you already know all of this and I also suspect you know there is no easy way to deal with it.

She needs professional help and the sooner the better. Good luck.

[DrKrettin]

I don’t presume to know much about this subject, so take whatever I say with a half-grain of whatever. From what you have said, it almost jumps out of the page as a dependent personality disorder. But, whatever name that I or anyone else tries to pin on it, one thing is certain; this woman needs professional help and your wife, and you, need to be relieved of the burden she is placing on both of you.

I suspect you already know all of this and I also suspect you know there is no easy way to deal with it.

She needs professional help and the sooner the better. Good luck.

 

Thank you very much for that link - I was totally unaware of this.  I read several paragraphs of the description of this disorder, and it was as if I were trying to describe her, so well it fitted the profile. One thing was particularly illuminating - the trait of mirroring.

 

The history of this is: that some years go both I and my wife finally recognised we were somewhere on the Asperger's spectrum, and this was a liberating experience to find an explanation for various social difficulties we have both faced separately in the past. Knowing that our friend obviously was unusual in her (lack of) social interaction, we went to great lengths explaining our revelation. She contacted an Asperger's society and had a couple of interviews, after which they declared she showed enough Asperger's traits to "qualify". Since that time, we have assumed all this makes sense, but had reservations about the diagnosis (various things just did not fit). After reading about DPD and that reference to mirroring, we suddenly realise that she could well have been mirroring my wife's personality when seeking an Asperger's diagnosis. Trying to understand her as an Aspie is thus quite possibly a complete red herring.

 

Many would consider all this as a meaningless exercise in labelling, but it is in fact extremely useful to us in trying to deal with a problem. We also noticed this comment in the link:

 

As a caretaker to a person who suffers from Dependent Personality Disorder (DPD), you can find yourself with an ever growing sense of anger and injustice when a capable adult acts like a helpless child.

 

 

Now we would not describe ourselves as caretakers, but we are the only "friends" she has, and my wife is indeed in that state of anger/frustration. Obviously, she is in need of serious psychological support (the friend, not the wife, well... dunno..sometimes..that's another thread :shocked:  ..) but there is no way she would agree to that (after several sessions with a professional which she judged to be unproductive).

 

However, this is all very constructive for us to try and work out how to deal with this, rather than resigning ourselves to sudden emigration or death (or both).

[OceanBreeze]

Thank you very much for that link - I was totally unaware of this.  I read several paragraphs of the description of this disorder, and it was as if I were trying to describe her, so well it fitted the profile.

However, this is all very constructive for us to try and work out how to deal with this, rather than resigning ourselves to sudden emigration or death (or both).

 

Well, I am certainly glad you found the information helpful and you are most welcome.

[DrKrettin]

To follow up on this thread, I would like to add that my wife says that the information gleaned has been far more than just useful and has in fact had a very positive effect on how she is dealing with the situation. She has been reading up on the links provided and is becoming increasingly convinced that the friend is indeed not on the Asperger's spectrum but definitely shows all the traits of DPD. The valuable part of this is that she can learn the appropriate responses and not get stressed by not knowing how to behave. As an Asperger's herself, this is immensely important for her, because social interaction is usually a big problem.

 

I'll spare you most of the detail, but the picture emerging is made up of behaviour which now fits a clear DPD pattern. For example, this week the friend has to undergo relatively trivial surgery, and a third person kindly offered to drive her to hospital. But she didn't want that - she wanted my wife to drive her, be with her until the operation and be there when she comes round from the anaesthetic. Now that she knows what is going on, the wife actually took a step back, and is prepared to take her home when released a day or two later, but that's it. The friend also requires continuous wall-to-wall sympathy via social media because of the impending surgery and associated dietary restrictions, behaving as if she were having open heart surgery instead of a gall bladder removal. ("The odds are in my favour..."). The wife has not responded to the pleas for sympathy in an overtly dramatic manner, so friend is sulking. The distancing starts here, but it is difficult to do without seeming unkind.

 

It does seem unlikely that the woman would agree to more therapy to help with a self-awareness and enable her to have more normal human contact. As much as I would like to help this woman, I don't see what we could do if she is not willing to help herself, and my main concern is ultimately the effect she has been having on my wife.

 

Predictably, the wife has suddenly become angry and resentful after a few years of frustration, so the past few days have been a bit of a white-knuckle ride, and I have been going on long solitary walks. But that is only temporary, already improving, and a necessary part of the process, and she is delighted with the revelation and the situation can only get better. So thanks again.

[OceanBreeze]

You had the courage to ask the question and provided enough information so that the pieces of the puzzle could fit together. I hope things get better from here on out, for everyone concerned.