Best Arguments Against Christianity

[anomalous29]

And I quote Mary Baker Eddy, who discovered and founded Christian Science, defined it as “the law of God, the law of good . . . ” (Rudimental Divine Science, p. 1).

 

Did you know that the rock tested and proved to be 4.4 billion years old is neat Hudson Bay, Quebec? Apparently, you weren't aware of either. This topic seems to be a little too emotional for you. You don't have to attack me because you can't disprove my facts. Just like in Bible, there is nothing about a trinity of any kind. These are agreed upon "truths" get this religion on the same page. Who wrote the gospels when Jesus fended off the devil for 40 days when he was by HIMSELF? Who witnessed that? How can a fallen angel overpower God? The creator of all? An angel? Really? In ancient scriptures God was referred to as YHWH, not Jehovah. There's religions using the God's incorrect name. When Jesus walked the Earth the average person was 5'3" - 5'4". The Shroud of Turin shows bearded person about 6'0" tall. I don't mean to personally attack your religion. If it makes you a better person for it, then please continue practicing.

 

In my personal opinion, all monotheistic religions are wrong. I interpret that to mean, we are all the same. If that were true, then this conversation would've never taken place. I don't like how all religions are financially driven. Ancient, polytheistic religions seemed more about gaining a higher consciousness. I believe that to be true religion.

[exchemist]

And I quote Mary Baker Eddy, who discovered and founded Christian Science, defined it as “the law of God, the law of good . . . ” (Rudimental Divine Science, p. 1).

 

Did you know that the rock tested and proved to be 4.4 billion years old is neat Hudson Bay, Quebec? Apparently, you weren't aware of either. This topic seems to be a little too emotional for you. You don't have to attack me because you can't disprove my facts. Just like in Bible, there is nothing about a trinity of any kind. These are agreed upon "truths" get this religion on the same page. Who wrote the gospels when Jesus fended off the devil for 40 days when he was by HIMSELF? Who witnessed that? How can a fallen angel overpower God? The creator of all? An angel? Really? In ancient scriptures God was referred to as YHWH, not Jehovah. There's religions using the God's incorrect name. When Jesus walked the Earth the average person was 5'3" - 5'4". The Shroud of Turin shows bearded person about 6'0" tall. I don't mean to personally attack your religion. If it makes you a better person for it, then please continue practicing.

 

In my personal opinion, all monotheistic religions are wrong. I interpret that to mean, we are all the same. If that were true, then this conversation would've never taken place. I don't like how all religions are financially driven. Ancient, polytheistic religions seemed more about gaining a higher consciousness. I believe that to be true religion.

Don't be a disingenuous pillock. "Christian Science", as you well know, is the name of an obscure sect that has nothing to do with science and precious little to do with Christianity.

 

That is not what you were talking about in your previous post, and you know it. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by exchemist

[anomalous29]

Yet, there are Christian scholars who still today believe that the earth is in fact 6,000 years old. Young Earth Creationism, Christian sect, believe that to be true. The use the Genesis to support their beliefs. Why doesn't some obscure religious sect get the same respect as you demand of your religion? If you're a real "Christian" then, you tolerate, accept, and forgive. Are you losing your religion? You've been personally attacking me because YOU CAN'T DISPROVE ANYTHING I'VE WRITTEN. Aren't you supposed to turn the other cheek? I think you need to expand your religious horizons. The ENTIRE story of Jesus was borrowed. Jesus, is what makes Christianity Christianity. If he's fake/stolen/made up, then it's reasonable to assume the religion spewing the lies is made up to.

[exchemist]

Yet, there are Christian scholars who still today believe that the earth is in fact 6,000 years old. Young Earth Creationism, Christian sect, believe that to be true. The use the Genesis to support their beliefs. Why doesn't some obscure religious sect get the same respect as you demand of your religion? If you're a real "Christian" then, you tolerate, accept, and forgive. Are you losing your religion? You've been personally attacking me because YOU CAN'T DISPROVE ANYTHING I'VE WRITTEN. Aren't you supposed to turn the other cheek? I think you need to expand your religious horizons. The ENTIRE story of Jesus was borrowed. Jesus, is what makes Christianity Christianity. If he's fake/stolen/made up, then it's reasonable to assume the religion spewing the lies is made up to.

Name me a Christian scholar of science who thinks this. I think you will struggle, and I can almost guarantee you will not find one outside the USA. 

 

I'm attacking your dishonesty in flip-flopping between a claim you made about Christianity in general and one about an irrelevant fringe sect. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by exchemist

[anomalous29]

. L. Andreasen - theologian, protested against the book Questions on Doctrine, and was influential in "historic Adventism"

Samuele Bacchiocchi - wrote From Sabbath to Sunday, based on his study at the Pontifical Gregorian University, at which he is the only non-Catholic to have enrolled

Admiral Barry Black, Phd, DMin, DD - first African American and current chaplain to the United States Senate

Richard M. Davidson - Old Testament scholar, and author of Flame of Yahweh

Herbert E. Douglass - American theologian

Jon Dybdahl - theologian and college administrator

Mark Finley - evangelist

Le Roy Edwin Froom - scholar and historian, one of the leading Adventist apologists [defenders] of his time

Gerhard Hasel - Old Testament theologian whose theology textbooks have been widely used at Christian seminaries

Siegfried Horn - prominent archaeologist

George R. Knight - historian, author, educator, theologian

Väinö Kohtanen - pioneer, evangelist, college president and conference president in Finland in the first half of the 20th century

All lasted above well renowned and respected in their time. But what about Ben Carson, United States Secretary of Housing and Urban Development? Is he well respected enough for you? Does that add some legitimacy to this?

 

Yes, you're correct there is no 'Christian Science' in the context in which I used it but, Christianity has been nowhere near the forefront of any science. A Christian scientist is a contradiction. A scientist in essence is doing part/some/all of God's work. You're actions are defying God's will. According to Christianity, the doctors hippocratic oath is like a Satanic ritual. The oath itself is based on pagan beliefs. Does that mean Christians, Muslims, Jewish, etc are going against the will of God?

[exchemist]

. L. Andreasen - theologian, protested against the book Questions on Doctrine, and was influential in "historic Adventism"

Samuele Bacchiocchi - wrote From Sabbath to Sunday, based on his study at the Pontifical Gregorian University, at which he is the only non-Catholic to have enrolled

Admiral Barry Black, Phd, DMin, DD - first African American and current chaplain to the United States Senate

Richard M. Davidson - Old Testament scholar, and author of Flame of Yahweh

Herbert E. Douglass - American theologian

Jon Dybdahl - theologian and college administrator

Mark Finley - evangelist

Le Roy Edwin Froom - scholar and historian, one of the leading Adventist apologists [defenders] of his time

Gerhard Hasel - Old Testament theologian whose theology textbooks have been widely used at Christian seminaries

Siegfried Horn - prominent archaeologist

George R. Knight - historian, author, educator, theologian

Väinö Kohtanen - pioneer, evangelist, college president and conference president in Finland in the first half of the 20th century

All lasted above well renowned and respected in their time. But what about Ben Carson, United States Secretary of Housing and Urban Development? Is he well respected enough for you? Does that add some legitimacy to this?

 

Yes, you're correct there is no 'Christian Science' in the context in which I used it but, Christianity has been nowhere near the forefront of any science. A Christian scientist is a contradiction. A scientist in essence is doing part/some/all of God's work. You're actions are defying God's will. According to Christianity, the doctors hippocratic oath is like a Satanic ritual. The oath itself is based on pagan beliefs. Does that mean Christians, Muslims, Jewish, etc are going against the will of God?

None of these is a scholar of science. 

[anomalous29]

Ben Carson is a nuerosurgeon and is deemed one of the twenty most influential Christian Scientists today. Just because his current title was misleading, don't just assume you're correct. CLEARLY, YOU'RE ILL INFORMED. You're welcome.

[exchemist]

Ben Carson is a nuerosurgeon and is deemed one of the twenty most influential Christian Scientists today. Just because his current title was misleading, don't just assume you're correct. CLEARLY, YOU'RE ILL INFORMED. You're welcome.

Jolly good, so one only and he is, as I forecast, in the USA. 

 

Q.E.D. 

 

And from his views, whatever they are, you can confidently state what scientists who are Christian believe about the age of the Earth?

 

Right. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by exchemist

[anomalous29]

I can confidently say you're back pedaling and resorting to insults. You're supposed to be some intelligent scientist, yet your faith proves you to a hypocrite. I never once said all Christian Scientists, that would include you, and we can all agree you're no scholar. I never used a definitive because that contradict my belief system. You should want to know more the Bible. Why was it written? By who? Why are so many books purposely left out? (Especially the Book of Enoch.) Because I've studied more than a compilation album or scape book, I have a deeper understanding of YOUR religion, NOT MINE. I'm truly sorry for exposing your false God.

[exchemist]

I can confidently say you're back pedaling and resorting to insults. You're supposed to be some intelligent scientist, yet your faith proves you to a hypocrite. I never once said all Christian Scientists, that would include you, and we can all agree you're no scholar. I never used a definitive because that contradict my belief system. You should want to know more the Bible. Why was it written? By who? Why are so many books purposely left out? (Especially the Book of Enoch.) Because I've studied more than a compilation album or scape book, I have a deeper understanding of YOUR religion, NOT MINE. I'm truly sorry for exposing your false God.

Oh well, your bluster and incoherent fulminations aside, I think I've made my point, which is that you cannot support your claim: "According to Christian science, the Earth is only 6,000yrs old." 

 

That's enough of this tomfoolery. 

Edited March 11, 2017 by exchemist

[OceanBreeze]

Oh well, your bluster and incoherent fulminations aside, I think I've made my point, which is that you cannot support your claim: "According to Christian science, the Earth is only 6,000yrs old." 

 

That's enough of this tomfoolery. 

 

 

I suspect that anomalous29 is confusing YECism with Christianity in general. That is not really surprising since the fundamentalist are often seen, particularly by non-Christians, as representative of the Christian faith. That is indeed unfortunate as there is no reason to feel contempt for the whole of Christianity, based on the vociferated rants of fundamentalist extremists.

 

I am not a Christian but I have had the good fortune in my travels far and wide to have met several missionaries of the Christian faith who were doing important humanitarian work, often under harsh conditions. I have had some good discussions with a couple of Jesuit priests (usually over a few beers) about their work and about their faith. They never tried to convert me, not that they could! I rather like the ancient religious beliefs of the South Sea Islanders, with the sea god Daucina being one of my favorite deities. And no, I don’t take any of it too seriously! At one point during one of our beery discussions, I had these two so captivated by my (made up) stories about Daucina, that I thought I might convert them!

 

But I digress! Anyone who confuses YECism with Christianity in general is making a big mistake. The good Christians I have spoken to all feel that the YECers, - with their insane belief in a Fred Flintstone-like world and their insistence that there is physical evidence to support their insanity – have greatly tarnished the classic Christian religion.

 

I must add, I don’t even like the title of this thread, and I didn’t bother to read the whole of it. Why should anyone be going around looking for a “good” reason to argue against Christianity? It is a religious belief that rightly or wrongly has existed for 2000 years; only fools go around arguing against that sort of thing. Now, YECism is another matter; argue against that nonsense all you like, but anyone who is stupid enough to believe in that crap isn’t worth arguing with.

(But you had better leave my Daucina alone) :cussing: 

[anomalous29]

I suspect you should read this post in its entirety before you comment on half of thread. I was raised Catholic Orthodox. I have absolutely no problem with any religion whatsoever. If you read this thread in its entirety, then you would know my stand on religion (all are right and none are wrong). But because the title is named as such, I brought up legit points, they cannot be disproved, and directly relate to the post. I will always stand up for my views. But when a retired grade school chemist personally insults me and quotes passages from the bible as if it's gospel, then I'm going to make him question his religion. It's that simple. The religion itself is irrelevant here. I've studied enough to know there are contradictions with ALL RELIGIONS. It's those contractions that have helped shape my beliefs.

Famous evangelist, RC Sproal, authored over 60 books, degrees from all over the world, taught extensively at seminaries is now a YEC. The point being is that you have the same Christian religious backdrop but, the rest of it is different. If everyone is reading the same book, then who's interpretation is correct? Since you're friends with all these religious scholars, please ask them individually what Exodus 4:24 means. It's the same passage being read/practiced/believed differently. It's how the religion is practiced that defines how good or bad it is.

Edited March 11, 2017 by anomalous29

[OceanBreeze]

I suspect you should read this post in its entirety before you comment on half of thread.

 

I am not that interested.

 

I was raised Catholic Orthodox.

 

 

Oh, sorry.

 

I have absolutely no problem with any religion whatsoever. If you read this thread in its entirety, then you would know my stand on religion (all are right and none are wrong). But because the title is named as such, I brought up legit points, they cannot be disproved, and directly relate to the post.

 

 

You say you have absolutely no problem while stating what your problems are. Interesting!

 

I will always stand up for my views. But when a retired grade school chemist personally insults me and quotes passages from the bible as if it's gospel, then I'm going to make him question his religion.

 

 

That is wrong on so many levels.

 

 

It's that simple. The religion itself is irrelevant here. I've studied enough to know there are contradictions with ALL RELIGIONS. It's those contractions that have helped shape my beliefs.

 

 

Of course there are contradictions. So what? I like contradictions!

 

 

Famous evangelist, RC Sproal, authored over 60 books, degrees from all over the world, taught extensively at seminaries is now a YEC.

 

 

Then he is a nutcase.

 

 

The point being is that you have the same Christian religious backdrop but, the rest of it is different. If everyone is reading the same book, then who's interpretation is correct? Since you're friends with all these religious scholars, please ask them individually what Exodus 4:24 means. It's the same passage being read/practiced/believed differently. It's how the religion is practiced that defines how good or bad it is.

 

 

 

I don’t remember seeing that scene in The Ten Commandments; I wonder why Cecil B. DeMille left it out? Oh Damn, I guess I will never know what it means. I would ask my Jesuit friends but I suspect they are too busy these days running their orphanage for kids whose parents died from AIDS, rather than engage in a debate about something from some ancient Babylonian fairy tale. For that matter, I have much better things to do myself. But if you ever do find out what it REALLY means, please be sure to post it here; I’m sure that will relieve the stress of many here who are troubling over it.

[anomalous29]

The problems I wirh religion are my own. It's the contradictions that shaped MY views. Those views, which likely differ from most, were not being forced upon anyone. The author of this post asked for the opinion of all who dared speaking up. I voiced my opinion, many times over, which cannot be disproved by anyone, was met with hostility.

The lack of self control by exchemist shows that this topic is too sensitive for him and shouldn't be part of this post. If the question itself stirs emotion, what do you think answers will do? I'm smart enough to know what I'm talking about. I may not phrase my sentence the same as most of but, it doesn't make my point any less valid.

[sluggo]

Fortunately for the benefit of the human race, truth is not determined by opinion polls.

[hazelm]

Art, yea maybe. Music? What like Creed? Or www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa0EtdtPi8w :)

 

Yes I do hate it (and organised religion in general to a lesser extent) and it's the one of the few things that I find very difficult to think impartially about, but I think it's held back science (or at least tried to) a lot more than it's helped it.

 

Beacuse beauty and art come from within, not from stupid fairy tales. This is what Christianity really stands for:

 

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

 

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

 

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

 

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

 

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

 

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

 

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

 

Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

 

But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

 

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

 

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

 

O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

 

“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

 

“You are my battle-ax and sword,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

 

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

 

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

 

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)

 

You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures. (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)

 

“All of you who are on the LORD’s side, come over here and join me.” “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors.” “Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing.” (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

 

“Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says the LORD. “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”. (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

 

And so on.

A-Wal, please.  The OP question concerns  Christianity.  You seem to be buried in Hebrewism.  That long list of versus that you are quoting and saying "this is what Christianity stands for" are not about Christianity. 

You are citing from the Old Testament ( Hebrew religion).  If you want to critique Christianity, try the New Testament.

 

And a bit of history.  Noah, my friend, was not a Christian. Noah lived long before Christianity was only 12 men learning a new life style.  Noah never heard of Christianity.

 

Finally, if you think Christianity was cruel, you might read the law books of the Old Testament with their vengeance and punishments. 

 

You seem well-versed on the Old Testament but you cannot separate it from the New Testament which was the story of Christianity's birth.

 

Mind,  I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you.  I am not suggesting you are right or wrong.  This is a topic I prefer to avoid.  I am only suggesting we get our history - and a few other facts - correct.   Whether the Christian Church had good music is another issue out of place in this debate but since you raise it: they had beautifully deep and creative musical form. Whether or not you like it is subjective.  This is neither an argument for or against Christianity. It is an argument about an art form.  Separate topic.

 

My apologies for sounding so critical toward you but I sense you have real issues here, wanting to make a point.  Only, you are off base when you use the Hebrew religion to argue against Christianity.   As a matter of fact, isn't that what the Hebrews themselves did - argue against Christ's teachings?

Edited October 8, 2017 by hazelm

[Buffy]

One has to be a bit careful here because some Christian sects insist on an "Inerrant" Bible, and do include the Old Testament in that inerrancy. This is used for all sorts of things like proving that God is against homosexuality (something that's much more explicit in the Old Testament than the New).

 

It's arguable that the main differences between Christian sects is the picking and choosing of what's open to interpretation (and it should be noted, "inerrancy" is mostly a way to say that your interpretation is the only true one, which mostly goes down a No True Scotsman logical hole).

 

As an administrative note, A-wal was banned quite a while ago for unrepentant trolling and won't be back to reply (at least we hope not). You might wish to continue this discussion over in the other thread about Old vs. New that you already have open. It's certainly an interesting theological discussion.

 

 

The bible is so simple you have to have someone else help you misunderstand it, :phones:

Buffy