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Is Homosexuality Unnatural? Defending Homosexuals And Their Right To Love And Are Natural As You And Me.


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#1 JTB

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 01:56 PM

Quote from guy I am in conversation with:

"Well here is a fact for a few of ye. STD's among gay men have risen by more than 80% since 2014. That is syphilis, gonorrhea and venereal disease that had almost been eradicated is now again on the rise. Now can any of ye bright sparks that think this behaviour is normal tell me what ye would say to a hetrosexual woman that had sex with a man, not knowing he was bisexual and got infected as a result. Bisexual men are the worst of all because they shop around for sex among hetrosexual women,, and im sure they dont tell the woman about the man they were screwing the night before. God is right these sodomites are a plight on humanity."

 

I don't know the area that well but I know homosexuals are normal and NOT unnatural. It has been documented in the animal kingdom and that we have a genome linkage to what makes people lean towards the same sex.. That is as far as I know and got but I think this guy has an argument... albeit hate filled and full of grammatical errors. I am really stumped as it does seem to be true, am I wrong or is there more to it?
 

p.s I am not trying to change his mind but want to go out with a logical argument against bigotry and learn something in the process. Thank you.

 
 

Edited by JTB, 22 October 2016 - 04:58 PM.


#2 A-wal

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 02:37 PM

If a bloke sleeps around then he can give his girlfriend an STD if he's not careful. If he likes men and gives his girlfriend an STD then it's not because he likes men.

 

It may be true that STDs are more prevalent in the homo/bisexual community but head injuries are more prevalent in the bike riding community than they are in the car driver group. It just means it's more important to wear a helmet.

 

Edit:

The real plight on humanity is god!


Edited by A-wal, 22 October 2016 - 02:39 PM.

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#3 CraigD

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 02:17 PM

Quote from guy I am in conversation with:
"Well here is a fact for a few of ye. STD's among gay men have risen by more than 80% since 2014. ... "
That is as far as I know and got but I think this guy has an argument... albeit hate filled and full of grammatical errors. I am really stumped as it does seem to be true, am I wrong or is there more to it?

Before accepting claims like this, which I assume was made without citing any supporting legitimate public health data, I do the work the person making or repeating the claim was too inept, lazy, or dishonest to do, and search for such supporting data.

In this case, the claim is badly exaggerated. There is an alarming increase in the number of cases of Syphilis in the US, of which about 80% are in men who have sex with men. The rate of increase among MSM, however, is not 80%, but for 2014 to 2015, 19%.

I don’t think any sensible medical person would agree that cause of this increase is, as “the guy” you quote claims, that “these sodomites are plight (sic – I believe the word they seek is “blight”) on humanity”. The increase is almost certainly due to an increase in unprotected, “unsafe” sex. I believe 2 main factors are responsible for the increase in unprotected sex in MSM: as HIV treatment has become more effective, a decrease in the fear of dying of AIDS; and decreases in availability of free or low cost health education, testing, and treatment.

It’s also revealing to look at where in the US syphilis rates are highest and lowest. Low average income rural areas have higher rates than higher income urban ones.

Fortunately, syphilis of any stage is curable, so this problem can be fixed with better healthcare outreach.

Sources: 10/20/16 NPR news article “STD Infections Rise New Highs After States Close Health Clinics”, 11/18/15 TowerRoad article “CDC Finds ‘Alarming’ Increase in STD Rates Among Gay Men; PrEP to Blame?”, 9/27/16 HPVandHepatitis.com article “STD 2016: Syphilis Rates Are Rising Among Gay Men, CDC Data Show”

#4 A-wal

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 03:11 PM

Fortunately, syphilis of any stage is curable, so this problem can be fixed with better healthcare outreach.

Doesn't it cause permanent brain damage? I think that's only in cases where a person has it for years though.



#5 CraigD

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 09:45 PM

Doesn't it cause permanent brain damage? I think that's only in cases where a person has it for years though.

Syphilis infection varies from individual to individual.

Without treatment, most experience sores, rashes, and in some severe cases widespread burn-like scarring. All these symptoms usually stop within 6 to 8 months after infection, and the infected person become decreasingly likely to pass on the infection over time.

5 to 15 years after infection about 33% of people who contract syphilis and aren’t treated develop tertiary syphilis, which can result in severe deformities, brain, and/or heart damage, in some cases causing death.

The bacteria that causes syphilis can be killed at any stage with penicillin and related antibiotics, but the doesn’t undo the damage it causes. It’s important not to diagnoses and treat, especially since if ignored, it seems to go away, but actually may continue, resulting in the worst damage, or even death.

#6 fahrquad

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 02:05 AM

I don't know if homosexuality is natural or unnatural, but I do have some friends that are homosexual, and I still love and respect them despite the fact that I don't agree with their life choices. Accept the person for who they are, not what your preconceived notions of human sexuality may be.



#7 A-wal

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 03:01 AM

They didn't make a choice! lol By that logic any heterosexual person could choose to be physically attracted to the same gender. It doesn't work like that, they're born gay.



#8 fahrquad

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 03:53 AM

They didn't make a choice! lol By that logic any heterosexual person could choose to be physically attracted to the same gender. It doesn't work like that, they're born gay.

Perhaps "choice" was a poor choice of words.   Maybe I should have said "I don't agree with their lifestyle".  I know they are born gay and die gay and nothing will change that, despite how much they might try to repress those urges.



#9 fahrquad

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 02:00 PM

I don't know if homosexuality is natural or unnatural, but I do have some friends that are homosexual, and I still love and respect them despite the fact that I don't agree with their life choices. Accept the person for who they are, not what your preconceived notions of human sexuality may be.

Practice safe sex,either in a monogamous relationship or with adequate protection.  My wife and I have been married for almost 18 years and I have not been with anyone else since then.  Before that I was with 10 other women and never got an STD.



#10 HydrogenBond

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 07:21 AM

This discussion is not about getting personal. I like all people as individuals and prefer not define individuals by social types. This topic and forum format is about discussing a phenomena, with scientific scrutiny. Some people try to make this discussion personal, so there is no logical discussion of behavior without hurt feeling to cloud the issue; smoke screen. I will get my fan, to blow away the smoke, so I can look at this in an objective scientific way.

 

Here are some of my observations about homosexuality, relative to the animal world, using dogs as the observational test subjects. Homosexual looking behavior, like males humping other males, is very often observed in dogs. If you go to a dog park, especially where there are a lot of dogs, male dogs will often try to hump each other. However, this humping is not about sex, rather it is about domination. They do this to define pack order, not to reproduce, and not to make love. It is a form of aggression, that is watered down, relative to direct fighting. The dogs are often good dogs who are not trying to hurt each other, but need to define pack order. 

 

My dog, who is a little over two years old, is not fixed. When he goes to a dog park, where most if not all the other adult dogs are fixed, he is cautious and will get ferocious if another dogs even thinks about humping him. The humping behavior seems to be more acceptable, at the dog parks, among fixed dogs, than among dogs that are still fertile. Once you make manmade changes to the dogs; surgery, the humping behavior increases in terms of acceptability among dogs. The intact dogs will fight, which discourages other dogs from showing signs of aggression unless they wish to fight. While the neutered males are not as tightly wound and will not necessarily feel the need to fight, if approached with humping aggression.  

 

In all cases, although the homosexual looking humping behavior does occur, I have never witnessed any dog go all the way to sexual intercourse. This appears to be unique to humans, and is where the animal argument seems to break down. 

 

From this data I would conclude, that human homosexuality is connected to some form of cultural  or psychological neutering. The leather, whips and chain attire, in the homosexual parade and play, has a symbolic connection to aggression and dominance. But since this is done in fun and fashion, it is closer to the neutered dogs than intact dogs. Going from ritualistic aggression, all the way to intercourse, which departs from the dogs, seems to indicate that social neutering was not complete, but rather results in sublimation of base instinct. 

 

Unlike the dog, which will undergoes surgery, that removes a source of chemical feedback to the brain; testicles, humans only neuter their young at the software level, leaving the hardware intact. The intact hardware feedback appears to sublimate within the software environment. 

 

I believe in human choice. However, it is useful to understand why?


Edited by HydrogenBond, 30 December 2016 - 07:25 AM.


#11 A-wal

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 08:29 AM

From this data I would conclude, that human homosexuality is connected to some form of cultural  or psychological neutering. The leather, whips and chain attire, in the homosexual parade and play, has a symbolic connection to aggression and dominance. But since this is done in fun and fashion, it is closer to the neutered dogs than intact dogs. Going from ritualistic aggression, all the way to intercourse, which departs from the dogs, seems to indicate that social neutering was not complete, but rather results in sublimation of base instinct.

Wtf? :) They're just born with different taste to us. They're not broken.

 

You really think all homosexual relationships involve kink and/or all heterosexual ones don't?

 

The reason you see it at parades is because parades appeal to attention seekers, and homosexuals feel the need to respond to idiots who apparently only believe in freedom if it involves being free to do the same things that they're into.



#12 Farming guy

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 06:42 PM

If one believes that humanity is a product of nature, than any human behavior would have to be considered  natural, or it would simply not exist.



#13 sanctus

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 01:35 AM

Farming Guy, with the same reasoning you can claim that any human action is natural and hence we can keep destroying our planet and say it is all natural



#14 exchemist

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 04:32 AM

Farming Guy, with the same reasoning you can claim that any human action is natural and hence we can keep destroying our planet and say it is all natural

I don't think that is fair. I think he was responding to the claim, by others, that homosexuality is "unnatural" - and thereby by implication inferior or morally suspect. The way I read it, he is arguing that everything we observe in nature is natural (sort of obviously!). Thus is makes no sense to argue any particular moral stance from whether or not something is considered to be "natural".  

 

I'm speculating, but it seems to me a farmer may be likely to be specially sensitive to the weakness of this line of argument, seeing that agriculture is a process of managing and controlling nature.


Edited by exchemist, 04 January 2017 - 04:32 AM.


#15 Farming guy

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 05:14 AM

Farming Guy, with the same reasoning you can claim that any human action is natural and hence we can keep destroying our planet and say it is all natural

 

I don't think that is fair. I think he was responding to the claim, by others, that homosexuality is "unnatural" - and thereby by implication inferior or morally suspect. The way I read it, he is arguing that everything we observe in nature is natural (sort of obviously!). Thus is makes no sense to argue any particular moral stance from whether or not something is considered to be "natural".  

 

I'm speculating, but it seems to me a farmer may be likely to be specially sensitive to the weakness of this line of argument, seeing that agriculture is a process of managing and controlling nature.

Yes, the "natural" arguments do bug me.  Humanity has this horrible habit of believing that we are apart from nature instead of a part of nature!  As a farmer, I consider myself to be working with the natural cycles of the planet, and the closer we can remain in sync with those cycles, the easier things go.

 

As to the specific issue of homosexuality, I can tell you that we have a herd of female cattle, and when one (or more ) of them comes into estrus (about to, or in the process of ovulating), they exhibit mounting behavior, even though there is not a bull among them, and in the cases when we have run a bull, the "lesbian" behavior is still exhibited.

 

Hormones are quite powerful at effecting behavior. 



#16 billvon

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 06:14 PM

If you go to a dog park, especially where there are a lot of dogs, male dogs will often try to hump each other. However, this humping is not about sex, rather it is about domination. They do this to define pack order, not to reproduce, and not to make love. It is a form of aggression, that is watered down, relative to direct fighting.

 

Right.  And human (heterosexual) rapists do something very similar. For them it is not sex - it is a violent act of domination.

From this data I would conclude, that human homosexuality is connected to some form of cultural  or psychological neutering. The leather, whips and chain attire, in the homosexual parade and play, has a symbolic connection to aggression and dominance. But since this is done in fun and fashion, it is closer to the neutered dogs than intact dogs. Going from ritualistic aggression, all the way to intercourse, which departs from the dogs, seems to indicate that social neutering was not complete, but rather results in sublimation of base instinct.

You are confusing a whole lot of stuff here.
 
The first is sexual orientation and the desire to dominate socially.  Both sexual orientations exhibit this in humans.
 
The second is consensual BDSM - the "leather, whips and chain attire" and play.  This is not unique to homosexuals; indeed, there is far more BDSM play amongst heterosexuals than homosexuals, due purely to the relative prevalence of those sexual orientations.
 
The third is some odd concept of "social neutering" you have here.  Actual neutering changes the hormonal balance within the animal, and thus causes behavioral changes.  Social neutering is a concept without a definition, and you have not provided one.

#17 HydrogenBond

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 07:37 AM

If you consider drug addiction, this shows that the brain can form what almost appears to be a new instinctive drive, which can compel behavior, beyond will and choice. Drug addicts can even be driven by the compulsion of addiction, to where natural instincts like eating and sleeping get overridden.

 

However, this is not necessarily direct genetic in origin. People can become addicted to new designer drugs, created this year, where the DNA has no history with the drug, to form a drug gene. The DNA does not change that fast, yet such addictions can form that fast.

 

This type of addiction would need to less direct genetic, and more loose genetic; subroutines of the brain, that can be applied to many situations. For example, pleasure can occur in many ways, via many diverse forms of input. Culture can come up with a new toy or game and people can find pleasure in it. The DNA is not connected to the toy, per se, but a more pliable subroutine of the brain connected to pleasure. One can program that with fine foods, dance or online porn. 

 

Homosexuality, makes no sense from the genetic POV. This behavior does not have the proclivity to reproduce itself; DNA. It is not subject to natural selection, since natural selection involves reproduction. The behavior appears to be based on a different selection process, more connected to brain subroutines. It makes sense that this is a behavior that forms in the brain. Sex is very pleasurable not matter how it is done. 

 

Social neutering would be where natural behavior is deprogrammed in favor of the latest fads. Since instincts are natural, you can never eliminate them, since they are written in the DNA. They will appear, again, but filtered through pliable sub-routines; sublimations.