The Flag

[Deepwater6]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/20/politics/confederate-flag-christians-south/index.html

Wow the Republican hopefuls are running for cover and staying away from this issue. A smart decision I believe, this is a very hard problem to take a stance on and retain voters.

For the record, I'm for taking the flag down. I've always believed states should be allowed to make laws and rules for that state, as voted by the people in that state. I never liked "The state" anything. the flower, the flag, etc. I believe for lack of a better term "the line" for national unification needs to be strengthened.

Individual state articles of any kind only serve to divide the country. That flag may remain on bumper stickers and protests signs for some time, but it's time is over. Take it down and put it in a museum. It's appearance is causing the South to look backwards when it could be looking forward into a bright future.

[phillip1882]

tough one for me, i think it should be leagal but discouraged as it genally is seen to be in support of racism and seperation of southern states from northern.

both i think are bad ideals to strive for.

[Moontanman]

If an individual wants to fly a flag then he should be able to. But to fly a flag officially by the state is a somewhat different thing...

[fahrquad]

It was not explicitly mentioned in any of the posts, but I assume you mean the Confederate flag.  The CSA does not exist anymore and has no place on any official state images or on any State sites, other than historical memorial sites dedicated to the "War Between the States". It definitely does not belong on any state issued license plates or state flags any more than the British Union Jack belongs on either.

[fahrquad]

Unfortunately the Klan adopted the Confederate flag casting disrespect on the CSA banner.  The socio-economic issues that precipitated the war between the states have largely been ignored, and many still remain to this day.  Surprise, the Civil War had nearly nothing to do with slavery, which was already on its way out.

[fahrquad]

South Carolina removed the Confederate flag (naval jack) from the State House dome about 10 years ago to a Confederate memorial on state house grounds.  It was then moved to a museum about a year ago after a self avowed racist killed 9 parishioners in Charleston.  Georgia removed the naval jack from its state flag in 2003, although the new flag is the First National Flag of the Confederacy (with the state seal added).

 

 

 

http://www.postandcourier.com/church-shooting

Edited October 2, 2016 by fahrquad

[fahrquad]

This is my flag, which is rich in historical significance covering the last 495 years of European settlement, although this area has been home to humans for about 30,000 years.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Carolina

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topper_Site

[TomKalbfus]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/20/politics/confederate-flag-christians-south/index.html

 

Wow the Republican hopefuls are running for cover and staying away from this issue. A smart decision I believe, this is a very hard problem to take a stance on and retain voters.

 

For the record, I'm for taking the flag down. I've always believed states should be allowed to make laws and rules for that state, as voted by the people in that state. I never liked "The state" anything. the flower, the flag, etc. I believe for lack of a better term "the line" for national unification needs to be strengthened.

 

Individual state articles of any kind only serve to divide the country. That flag may remain on bumper stickers and protests signs for some time, but it's time is over. Take it down and put it in a museum. It's appearance is causing the South to look backwards when it could be looking forward into a bright future.

It is a Democrat Flag. The Democrats voted for secession in 1861 and fought a civil war in order to secede. Some Democrats want to secede today in places like California, so they can have as many illegal aliens as their heart desires, when Federal Law is inconvenient for them, just as many Democrats felt it was inconvenient once for them to give up their slaves!

[Buffy]

It is a Democrat Flag. The Democrats voted for secession in 1861 and fought a civil war in order to secede. Some Democrats want to secede today in places like California, so they can have as many illegal aliens as their heart desires, when Federal Law is inconvenient for them, just as many Democrats felt it was inconvenient once for them to give up their slaves!

 

For some history-challenged Republicans, the 1960s and the Nixon presidency never happened.

 

We're all laughing at your ignorance Tom.

 

 

You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can't say “nigger” — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.” :phones:

Buffy

[TomKalbfus]

For some history-challenged Republicans, the 1960s and the Nixon presidency never happened.

 

We're all laughing at your ignorance Tom.

 

 

You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can't say “nigger” — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.” :phones:

Buffy

​Does David Duke in the room prevent a black person from finding a job? Why do you give David Duke such power? You have to understand, racists like David Duke are in the minority, and he doesn't own everything, and he can't prevent black people from finding a job. Black people don't need Affirmative Action to protect themselves against David Duke! You have to understand, we are not living in the 1950s and 1960s anymore, that is a whole lifetime ago for me. that is history, maybe if we didn't teach black people that history, they wouldn't have these problems, you ever think that?

[Buffy]

​Does David Duke in the room prevent a black person from finding a job? Why do you give David Duke such power? You have to understand, racists like David Duke are in the minority, and he doesn't own everything, and he can't prevent black people from finding a job. Black people don't need Affirmative Action to protect themselves against David Duke!

David Duke isn't the only racist, dear. Honest.

 

Racism isn't just about explicitly expressing hatred of other races (which David Duke and other White Supremacists do), it is about unconscious bias against people who are not in your social group.

 

That you don't recognize the latter, or worse, seem to think it completely, magically disappeared in 1964, simply means you've been hiding in a cave for a very long time and never ever actually talk to black people.

 

You have to understand, we are not living in the 1950s and 1960s anymore, that is a whole lifetime ago for me. that is history, maybe if we didn't teach black people that history, they wouldn't have these problems, you ever think that?[/font]

It doesn't matter how many times you keep repeating it, none of this is going to be true. "Progress" is not "problem solved," and you not seeing that there are still problems is your fault, not NFL players, not black people, yours.

 

Now you keep screaming about how "unpatriotic" the players are and how they're disrepecting the flag, how about listening to an actual military veteran?

 

I’ve seen a lot of posts over the last 24 hours regarding “respecting the flag” and what that means…and how athletes who use their public forum to voice dissent are somehow “unpatriotic”. I want to offer a different opinion.

My father is buried at the foot of the flagpole in Golden Gate National Cemetery. He landed at Normandy, fought at the Battle of the Bulge and liberated Nazi camps in Germany. His enemy was fascism. I served as a Green Beret in the early 1970s (pretty sure you all know what that entails). Our enemy at the time was communism. My son is currently a serving officer in the Army, who on his dress blues wears the Bronze Star he was awarded during a year-long tour in Afghanistan. His enemy is and was the Taliban and the threat of terrorism.

Three generations of my family, serving the USA, in harms’ way. Three vastly different enemies, but enemies who shared one common trait. ALL of them stifle free speech. All of them bully, degrade and terrorize those who hold opposing views and who peacefully express them. All of them are intolerant and demand “loyalty” to the leader.

I can tell you, speaking for three generations of my family, it is PRECISELY for men like Kaepernick, and his right to peacefully protest injustice, that we were willing to serve. There is NOTHING more respectful of our country than living up to its ideals. There is nothing more patriotic than to say “I’m concerned with injustice, and will use my position to try and address it.”

Want to know what’s unpatriotic? Using your white privilege to avoid serving, citing “bone spurs in the heel” while playing varsity tennis at college while others went. Want to know what is antithetical to American values? Using the most powerful pulpit in the land to incite violence – against ANYONE. Want to define disgraceful behavior? Denigrating a man like Senator John McCain’s service and heroism while you sat home.

Want to respect the American flag? Then respect the ideals for which it stands. Bullying language and calling peaceful protesters “sons of bitches” who should be fired aren’t among them.

You have far less right to make this judgement than he does. You should listen.

 

Now are you going to grow up and learn about the world you live in, or are you just here to rant about your fantasies?

 

 

People know about the Klan and the overt racism, but the killing of one's soul little by little, day after day, is a lot worse than someone coming in your house and lynching you, :phones:

Buffy

[TomKalbfus]

 

David Duke isn't the only racist, dear. Honest.

 

Racism isn't just about explicitly expressing hatred of other races (which David Duke and other White Supremacists do), it is about unconscious bias against people who are not in your social group.

 

That you don't recognize the latter, or worse, seem to think it completely, magically disappeared in 1964, simply means you've been hiding in a cave for a very long time and never ever actually talk to black people.

 

It doesn't matter how many times you keep repeating it, none of this is going to be true. "Progress" is not "problem solved," and you not seeing that there are still problems is your fault, not NFL players, not black people, yours.

 

Now you keep screaming about how "unpatriotic" the players are and how they're disrepecting the flag, how about listening to an actual military veteran?

 

You have far less right to make this judgement than he does. You should listen.

 

Now are you going to grow up and learn about the world you live in, or are you just here to rant about your fantasies?

 

 

People know about the Klan and the overt racism, but the killing of one's soul little by little, day after day, is a lot worse than someone coming in your house and lynching you, :phones:

Buffy

 

 

Racism isn't just about explicitly expressing hatred of other races (which David Duke and other White Supremacists do), it is about unconscious bias against people who are not in your social group.

 

 

Whatever happened to the idea of innocent until proven guilty? You don't know what unconscious biases people have, their thoughts are their own and not yours to control or regulate. I think free speech is more important that eliminating all racism everywhere! I think freedom of thought is important also, we don't need any "Thought Police" here. Also free speech doesn't mean we have to watch people insulting the entire country on television.

[Buffy]

Whatever happened to the idea of innocent until proven guilty? You don't know what unconscious biases people have, their thoughts are their own and not yours to control or regulate.

Then why are you trying to "control and regulate" what the NFL players thoughts are?

 

Who gave you the right to insist that they're "insulting the flag" and "hating America?"

 

How would you know?

 

Oh, that's right, YOU COULD ASK THEM. But you refuse to so you can justify telling them to "leave."

 

 

I think free speech is more important that eliminating all racism everywhere!

That's an interesting way of putting it.

 

I guess since you only believe in some people like yourself having a right to free speech, the fact that the players express their freedom to speak about racism makes it invalid too, eh?

 

I think freedom of thought is important also, we don't need any "Thought Police" here.

Thinking things without speaking them has the virtue that people who disagree won't call you out for saying stupid things! :cheer:

 

You should try it!

 

Also free speech doesn't mean we have to watch people insulting the entire country on television.

No one's making you watch them on television. Heck, you probably go to the bathroom while the anthem is playing. How "respectful."

 

 

I'll lay my head to any good man's hat, these oaths and laws will prove an idle scorn, :phones:

Buffy

[TomKalbfus]

Then why are you trying to "control and regulate" what the NFL players thoughts are?

 

Who gave you the right to insist that they're "insulting the flag" and "hating America?"

 

How would you know?

 

Oh, that's right, YOU COULD ASK THEM. But you refuse to so you can justify telling them to "leave."

 

 

That's an interesting way of putting it.

 

I guess since you only believe in some people like yourself having a right to free speech, the fact that the players express their freedom to speak about racism makes it invalid too, eh?

 

Thinking things without speaking them has the virtue that people who disagree won't call you out for saying stupid things! :cheer:

 

You should try it!

 

No one's making you watch them on television. Heck, you probably go to the bathroom while the anthem is playing. How "respectful."

 

 

I'll lay my head to any good man's hat, these oaths and laws will prove an idle scorn, :phones:

Buffy

You ever dine at a restaurant? Does the waiter have freedom of speech? Suppose the waiter doesn't like you and insults you or makes some obscene gesture, are you going to tell the manager of the restaurant that he can't fire the waiter for doing that?

 

If the football players have the freedom to disrespect my country, then I have the freedom to tell them where I think they should go!. They have a right to be unpatriotic, but it is still unpatriotic, I have never called up my lawyer about that. I never said they should be arrested, that is a straw man you pulled out of a hat. What I'm saying is these football players are unpatriotic and should find another country that they like if they don't like this one! Do want to debate about that, or do you want to debate about whether they should be arrested and deported for being unpatriotic, because I never made that argument, you made it and attributed it to me.

Edited October 17, 2017 by TomKalbfus

[Buffy]

You ever dine at a restaurant? Does the waiter have freedom of speech? Suppose the waiter doesn't like you and insults you or makes some obscene gesture, are you going to tell the manager of the restaurant that he can't fire the waiter for doing that?

Show me a single incident in history where kneeling is an insult. Go ahead. I'll wait.

 

I never said they should be arrested, that is a straw man you pulled out of a hat.

I never said you said they should be arrested. You have to use a straw man to invent a straw man? How meta!

 

What I'm saying is these football players are unpatriotic and should find another country that they like if they don't like this one! Do want to debate about that, or do you want to debate about whether they should be arrested and deported for being unpatriotic, because I never made that argument, you made it and attributed it to me.

You didn't read the quote I included above from an actual military veteran did you? You didn't understand a word of it I guess. Maybe if I include it again you'll read it. Here ya go:

 

I’ve seen a lot of posts over the last 24 hours regarding “respecting the flag” and what that means…and how athletes who use their public forum to voice dissent are somehow “unpatriotic”. I want to offer a different opinion.

My father is buried at the foot of the flagpole in Golden Gate National Cemetery. He landed at Normandy, fought at the Battle of the Bulge and liberated Nazi camps in Germany. His enemy was fascism. I served as a Green Beret in the early 1970s (pretty sure you all know what that entails). Our enemy at the time was communism. My son is currently a serving officer in the Army, who on his dress blues wears the Bronze Star he was awarded during a year-long tour in Afghanistan. His enemy is and was the Taliban and the threat of terrorism.

Three generations of my family, serving the USA, in harms’ way. Three vastly different enemies, but enemies who shared one common trait. ALL of them stifle free speech. All of them bully, degrade and terrorize those who hold opposing views and who peacefully express them. All of them are intolerant and demand “loyalty” to the leader.

I can tell you, speaking for three generations of my family, it is PRECISELY for men like Kaepernick, and his right to peacefully protest injustice, that we were willing to serve. There is NOTHING more respectful of our country than living up to its ideals. There is nothing more patriotic than to say “I’m concerned with injustice, and will use my position to try and address it.”

Want to know what’s unpatriotic? Using your white privilege to avoid serving, citing “bone spurs in the heel” while playing varsity tennis at college while others went. Want to know what is antithetical to American values? Using the most powerful pulpit in the land to incite violence – against ANYONE. Want to define disgraceful behavior? Denigrating a man like Senator John McCain’s service and heroism while you sat home.

Want to respect the American flag? Then respect the ideals for which it stands. Bullying language and calling peaceful protesters “sons of bitches” who should be fired aren’t among them.

If you think it's unpatriotic, you're in a minority. That makes you the problem, not them. Sad.

 

 

A reactionary is a somnambulist walking backwards, :phones:

Buffy

[pzkpfw]

...

If the football players have the freedom to disrespect my country, ... They have a right to be unpatriotic,  ...

 

I still find it (especially as a non US-ian) utterly bizzare how anyone finds their actions so disrespectful or unpatriotic.

 

It's not as though they face their back to the flag or make obscene gestures towards it. (In fact, their action was designed to - not - be disrespectful).

 

Such a teacup storm.

 

Why are there no protests of indignation over strippers using old-glory themed bikinis? I guess they are patriotic strippers.

 

 

Edit:

Is a patriot someone who blindly assumes their country is perfect as it is and shows unquestioning approval of everything?

Is someone who recognises a problem in their country, and peacefully tries to draw attention to it to help find a solution, a patriot?

Edited October 17, 2017 by pzkpfw

[Maine farmer]

You ever dine at a restaurant? Does the waiter have freedom of speech? Suppose the waiter doesn't like you and insults you or makes some obscene gesture, are you going to tell the manager of the restaurant that he can't fire the waiter for doing that?

 

If the football players have the freedom to disrespect my country, then I have the freedom to tell them where I think they should go!. They have a right to be unpatriotic, but it is still unpatriotic, I have never called up my lawyer about that. I never said they should be arrested, that is a straw man you pulled out of a hat. What I'm saying is these football players are unpatriotic and should find another country that they like if they don't like this one! Do want to debate about that, or do you want to debate about whether they should be arrested and deported for being unpatriotic, because I never made that argument, you made it and attributed it to me.

The decision to fire would belong to the employer, not the President of the United States, and not even  the customers.  If the football fans are upset, and the team owners don't want to fire them, then they can simply not watch football.  (I could never watch football anyway because they keep stopping the clock and 5 minutes takes half an hour)

 

I doubt very much that Trump cares at all about who disrespects the flag or in what way.  He just likes keeping everybody distracted from what a disaster his presidency is.  

 

With all that is going on in the world it seems like udder madness to acquire a bovine over someone not standing for the flag.  As someone with three barns full of bovines, I would advise against acquiring bovines willy-nilly.