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#222 CraigD

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 05:04 PM

Hmm, perhaps. But take a look at this article:
http://neurosciencen...hetic-bmi-3669/

It seems to me that they do have a very good EEG(sort of), or am I missing something?

You’re missing that the nerve activity-reading device Nathan Crone and his team installed in a patient doesn’t use EEG, which detects voltages produced by the brain via electrodes attached non-invasively to the patients scalp, but ECoG, which detects voltage produced by the brain via an array of electrodes implanted by a neurosurgeon, invasively, in the brain.

ECoG is much more accurate and sensitive than EEG because because each implanted electrode can pinpoint (pun intended) the firing of a small collection of neurons, while EEG must measure small differences between the voltages of electrodes at different places on the scalp to narrow down the area in which neurons are firing. To use Billvon’s analogy of trying to read the activity of a car’s computer, an EEG is like listening with an array of sophisticated sensors stuck on the outside of the car, while a ECoG is like soldering wires into the internal parts of the computer. The EEG is a more sophisticated system, but it’s less effective because it has to cope with so much more noise due to the distance between its sensors and what it’s trying to sense.

#223 weamy

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 12:14 PM

You’re missing that the nerve activity-reading device Nathan Crone and his team installed in a patient doesn’t use EEG, which detects voltages produced by the brain via electrodes attached non-invasively to the patients scalp, but ECoG, which detects voltage produced by the brain via an array of electrodes implanted by a neurosurgeon, invasively, in the brain.

ECoG is much more accurate and sensitive than EEG because because each implanted electrode can pinpoint (pun intended) the firing of a small collection of neurons, while EEG must measure small differences between the voltages of electrodes at different places on the scalp to narrow down the area in which neurons are firing. To use Billvon’s analogy of trying to read the activity of a car’s computer, an EEG is like listening with an array of sophisticated sensors stuck on the outside of the car, while a ECoG is like soldering wires into the internal parts of the computer. The EEG is a more sophisticated system, but it’s less effective because it has to cope with so much more noise due to the distance between its sensors and what it’s trying to sense.

 

Ah, thanks. You've made things a lot clearer.

 

The question is "can ECoGs be used to 'read' the brain?"

 

BTW, I don't get the pun. Sorry.



#224 billvon

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 01:45 PM

That again may be true. However, are we even sure that there are actually college professors and students studying this? I feel that the least that we can do is try to bring this to their attention.

Definitely.  I know Stanford and UCSD are working on this, for example.  Applications are medical rather than gaming but the basic research is similar in both cases.



#225 NotBrad

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 02:18 PM

Definitely.  I know Stanford and UCSD are working on this, for example.  Applications are medical rather than gaming but the basic research is similar in both cases.

YOU KIDDING ME? Holy ******* ****.

There was a neuroscience prof from UCSD doing an AMA last week and I asked specifically about this and it was ignored.



#226 CraigD

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 09:34 PM

BTW, I don't get the pun. Sorry.

An electrode, which ends in an sharp metal point that is placed directly on an individual or small collection of neurons, “pinpointing” an individual or small collection of neurons. Not a very good pun. :)
 

The question is "can ECoGs be used to 'read' the brain?"

I think the answer is, pretty clearly, yes.

Reading the brain with an ECoG electrode array is exactly what Crone and his lab did in that amazing “Mind Controlled Prosthetic Arm Moves Individual Fingers” experiments described in that NeuroscienceNews article you linked a few posts ago. They used data from the implanted 128 electrode array to first register the neural activity of the patient moving his actual fingers (the patient was undergoing surgery to diagnose and treat severe epilepsy – despite controlling an electromechanical artificial arm and hand, he isn’t an amputee). The system was then able to detect the same neural activity to control the artificial hand, with 76% accuracy.

More and more densely placed ECoG electrodes could almost certainly give better accuracy at reading a wider range of neural activity. The great and obvious drawback to ECoG is that placing the electrode arrays requires brain surgery. In the case of Crone’s team’s experiment, the patient was already getting the surgery to treat his epilepsy, so was at no greater risk from Crone’s brain-controlled prosthetic experiments.

Although the density of the microelectrode arrays has improved over the years, and the ability to use a wireless connection between the implanted electrodes and the external equipment has eliminated the problematical need to pass wires through long-term holes in the skull and other tissue, this sort of brain reading has been done effectively since the 1950s, and is one of the largest reasons we know as much neuroanatomy as we now do.
 

However, are we even sure that there are actually college professors and students studying this? I feel that the least that we can do is try to bring this to their attention.

The team that did the “Mind Controlled Prosthetic Arm Moves Individual Fingers” experiments – CroneLab - are a good example of a such a teacher + students enterprise. Their “people” page lists 2 faculty, 4 grad students, 1 undergrad, 2 technical staff, 13 collaborating faculty, and 2 lab alumni.

Teams like these aren’t unique. Another that come to mind is the 53 active member BrainGate team, who are primarily interested in developing a standard commercial ECoG system that could be used greater numbers of more routinely clinical neurologists.

#227 HarrisR

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 10:01 PM

Teams like these aren’t unique. Another that come to mind is the 53 active member BrainGate team, who are primarily interested in developing a standard commercial ECoG system that could be used greater numbers of more routinely clinical neurologists.

Another example is NeuroTechX, A international neurotech hackers network has around 820+ members all in a variety of fields.



#228 weamy

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 03:45 AM

An electrode, which ends in an sharp metal point that is placed directly on an individual or small collection of neurons, “pinpointing” an individual or small collection of neurons. Not a very good pun. :)
 
I think the answer is, pretty clearly, yes.

Reading the brain with an ECoG electrode array is exactly what Crone and his lab did in that amazing “Mind Controlled Prosthetic Arm Moves Individual Fingers” experiments described in that NeuroscienceNews article you linked a few posts ago. They used data from the implanted 128 electrode array to first register the neural activity of the patient moving his actual fingers (the patient was undergoing surgery to diagnose and treat severe epilepsy – despite controlling an electromechanical artificial arm and hand, he isn’t an amputee). The system was then able to detect the same neural activity to control the artificial hand, with 76% accuracy.

More and more densely placed ECoG electrodes could almost certainly give better accuracy at reading a wider range of neural activity. The great and obvious drawback to ECoG is that placing the electrode arrays requires brain surgery. In the case of Crone’s team’s experiment, the patient was already getting the surgery to treat his epilepsy, so was at no greater risk from Crone’s brain-controlled prosthetic experiments.

Although the density of the microelectrode arrays has improved over the years, and the ability to use a wireless connection between the implanted electrodes and the external equipment has eliminated the problematical need to pass wires through long-term holes in the skull and other tissue, this sort of brain reading has been done effectively since the 1950s, and is one of the largest reasons we know as much neuroanatomy as we now do.
 
The team that did the “Mind Controlled Prosthetic Arm Moves Individual Fingers” experiments – CroneLab - are a good example of a such a teacher + students enterprise. Their “people” page lists 2 faculty, 4 grad students, 1 undergrad, 2 technical staff, 13 collaborating faculty, and 2 lab alumni.

Teams like these aren’t unique. Another that come to mind is the 53 active member BrainGate team, who are primarily interested in developing a standard commercial ECoG system that could be used greater numbers of more routinely clinical neurologists.

 

Oh, for some reason, when I think of electrode, I picture a round metal thingy. Even though I've seen many pictures and animations of electrodes.

Wow, I hardly did any research on that article.

 

Those groups do look interesting.

 

 

Another example is NeuroTechX, A international neurotech hackers network has around 820+ members all in a variety of fields.

 

Very interesting. Perhaps certain people from these groups can help us.



#229 billvon

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 11:15 AM

YOU KIDDING ME? Holy ******* ****.

There was a neuroscience prof from UCSD doing an AMA last week and I asked specifically about this and it was ignored.

From their website:

===========

Brain-Machine Interfaces (BMI)

Designing better interfaces: skin-like electronics

 

Capabilities for non-invasive measurement of neural signals are important because they support many critical biomedical applications, including brain-machine interface paradigms in mobile applications. Currently, recording neural signals in mobile environments is a challenge because conventional measurement devices have rigid or mildly flexible construction and bulky cables for signal conduction. Technologies of the future must address these drawbacks, through new ideas that provide ultrathin, conformal designs, with high fidelity and non-invasive measurement modes. Our research group, in conjunction with the research group of John Rogers at UIUC, is developing foldable, stretchable electrode arrays that can non-invasively measure neural signals (i.e. EEG) without the need for gel.

===========



#230 kelsonmccray1

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 02:33 PM

Why not program the technology to the point it adjust to the wearer's brain.  Also why not just use electronic waves to carry information between the game and user?



#231 CraigD

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 08:28 PM

Welcome to the forum, kelsonmccray. :)
 

Also why not just use electronic waves to carry information between the game and user?

I think you mean electromagnetic waves, not electronic. You might find the distinction nit-picky, but precise use of terms is important. Electromagnetic waves involve photons, electronics the movement and distribution of electrons. Photons and electrons are very different particles.

That said, we currently do use EM radiation to carry information from games, and nearly every other kind of computer program to users: the screens of our various devices emit EM radiation in the visible light spectrum, which is received by our eyes, and sent via our optic nerves to our brains. Because we humans can’t emit EM radiation voluntarily, we can’t much send information to computers using it.

We can’t send and receive information directly to and from the brain using EM waves, because any powerful enough to penetrate far enough are powerful enough to injure us, and because (unless they’ve been genetically altered using optogenetics) our brains don’t emit it at all. He idea that you can, via “microwave transceivers” is one of the worst misconceptions perpetuated by Sword Art Online – the idea is simple scientific nonsense.

How to accomplish bi-direction, high-resolution communication directly between the brain and a computer is the central challenge discussed in the FullDive technology forum. It’s not an easy one.

#232 billvon

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 10:51 PM

Why not program the technology to the point it adjust to the wearer's brain.  Also why not just use electronic waves to carry information between the game and user?

Because the technology does not support that functionality.

 

Might as well ask "Why not program your car to get 6000 miles per gallon?" or "why not program the Falcon 9 to just fly to Mars?"  The hardware doesn't support it.



#233 NotBrad

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 07:31 AM

Because the technology does not support that functionality.

 

Might as well ask "Why not program your car to get 6000 miles per gallon?" or "why not program the Falcon 9 to just fly to Mars?"  The hardware doesn't support it.

Wait, what? So that snake oil salesman lied? That B*****D!

 

But on a more serious note, doesn't the human brain actually produce EM waves? I remember reading an old textbook somewhere saying that you are actually being exposed to radiation of some form just by standing near another human, is there no potential or hypothetical technology capable of reading and interpreting such waves in development? Because that would certainly give us that mind-reading ability that science fiction so loves. Either way would be cool anyhow, even as an impossible concept, like the theories suggesting black holes are actually tunnels to another part of the universe, maybe we will never know.



#234 billvon

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 10:57 AM

But on a more serious note, doesn't the human brain actually produce EM waves? I remember reading an old textbook somewhere saying that you are actually being exposed to radiation of some form just by standing near another human, is there no potential or hypothetical technology capable of reading and interpreting such waves in development? Because that would certainly give us that mind-reading ability that science fiction so loves. Either way would be cool anyhow, even as an impossible concept, like the theories suggesting black holes are actually tunnels to another part of the universe, maybe we will never know.

Yes, we emit EM radiation, because charges within our bodies move (specifically depolarization of nerves causes a flow of ions, which means a changing electric field.)  But it's not organized into anything coherent, and is at best a side effect of one of many (not even the most important) messaging systems that nerves use.  It's like trying to get the blueprints of a building by analyzing the EM radiation of the motor in the drill someone is using to build it.  You can get pretty gross readings (like whether neurons are firing normally or in worrisome oscillating patterns) but you're not going to get very fine info.



#235 NotBrad

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 12:17 PM

Yes, we emit EM radiation, because charges within our bodies move (specifically depolarization of nerves causes a flow of ions, which means a changing electric field.)  But it's not organized into anything coherent, and is at best a side effect of one of many (not even the most important) messaging systems that nerves use.  It's like trying to get the blueprints of a building by analyzing the EM radiation of the motor in the drill someone is using to build it.  You can get pretty gross readings (like whether neurons are firing normally or in worrisome oscillating patterns) but you're not going to get very fine info.

Well I never said I knew anything about it! I guess those psychic mind readers aren't using that then!



#236 bobbobkilu

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 06:44 PM

Here is how to determine if something emits EM radiation.

 

1. Is it above absolute zero? If so, yes, it is emitting some form of EM radiation.

 

So, yes, literally everything emits some form of EM radiation. For people, its generally infrared. Heat something up more, and it moves into the red spectrum, then up till its emitting all visible light bands, which is why hot stuff glows red, yellow, up to white. This is also why infra-red cameras show "heat"; they are actually detecting the wavelength of light being produced because stuff is hot.


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#237 palgonistar12

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 08:24 AM

Hello guys , do you remember me? I have a question to all of you.

You are still working on that divice? Can i go one time more into it?
 



#238 17robots

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 09:21 AM

Hello palgoni. I remember you well. How's your break been? And I'd be open to letting you continue on the project with us.



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