Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Infinity, Eternal Life

infinity space eternal life multiverse

  • Please log in to reply
7 replies to this topic

#1 therammo

therammo

    Thinking

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts

Posted 28 March 2015 - 03:43 PM

The basic premise proceeds from the assumption that the probability of a world coming into existence exactly like our own is greater than zero (we know this because our world exists). If space is infinite, then cosmology tells us that our existence will recur an infinite number of times.

We also know for a fact that we are made of atoms and particles. Giving infinite time and space, there will eventually be same atoms and particles IN SAME ORDER, therefore our existence is cyclical and not linear.

Speaking of logic, the only reasonable answer would be that we indeed are living in an eternal and infinite space, where big bangs are occurring infinitely without need for cause.

This would also explain the 'free will' problem. Space doesn't care what you think. Its a random generation of algorithms that will make all possible outcomes reality. For an example; I'm president of US in a parallel universe. And in another universe I'm living in a world where star wars really happened. So according to the eternal return theory, we do not have free will.

 

According to this theory, I will live the same life again and again for eternity. Is this proof that we indeed may be living in hell? A hell we can't escape... ever...



#2 HydrogenBond

HydrogenBond

    Creating

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3058 posts

Posted 29 March 2015 - 05:27 AM

I have a problem with the premise that we live in a random universe. That type of universe is irrational. For example, if you look at risk analysis, if someone smokes cigarettes they have a risk of heart disease. Say they go their entire life and never develop heart disease, than the hard data of a lifetime says the entire premise of the risk had no basis in reality. Yet they will still be told they have risk. 

 

Random sounds like a scam that makes people act in certain ways, as though there is a problem, even if the hard data says there is no problem. Random is based on casino math, where the house always wins and the gamblers lose. The insurance companies make huge profits from gamblers who live in a random universe and play the odds hoping to avoid a jackpot that never appears. This approach is wrong most of the time, yet it has become popular in science; science casinos. 


Edited by HydrogenBond, 29 March 2015 - 05:29 AM.


#3 therammo

therammo

    Thinking

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts

Posted 29 March 2015 - 10:06 AM

I have a problem with the premise that we live in a random universe. That type of universe is irrational. For example, if you look at risk analysis, if someone smokes cigarettes they have a risk of heart disease. Say they go their entire life and never develop heart disease, than the hard data of a lifetime says the entire premise of the risk had no basis in reality. Yet they will still be told they have risk. 

 

Random sounds like a scam that makes people act in certain ways, as though there is a problem, even if the hard data says there is no problem. Random is based on casino math, where the house always wins and the gamblers lose. The insurance companies make huge profits from gamblers who live in a random universe and play the odds hoping to avoid a jackpot that never appears. This approach is wrong most of the time, yet it has become popular in science; science casinos. 

The risk for heard disease is not 100% or 0 % therefore the data cannot predict whether it actually will happen or not. Same with the universe. If the chance is 0.000000000000001 that an exact same universe as ours will exist, given infinite time and space, it will happen with a 100% certainty. 



#4 CraigD

CraigD

    Creating

  • Administrators
  • 8034 posts

Posted 30 March 2015 - 05:53 AM

Welcome to hypography, therammo! :) Please feel free to start a topic in the introductions forum to tell us something about yourself.
 

The basic premise proceeds from the assumption that the probability of a world coming into existence exactly like our own is greater than zero (we know this because our world exists). If space is infinite, then cosmology tells us that our existence will recur an infinite number of times.

This concept is conventionally known as “eternal return”. Variation of it are thousands of years old in philosophy and religion. In science, it appears in the mid 19th Century. Its present scientific status, in terms of how accepted it is as likely to be true, has declined since the mid 20th Century, when it was widely accepted (though, dealing as it does with time scales too big to be of practical value, not considered very important)., in large pard due to observations in the past 50+ years that have effectively refuted the simplest early 20th Century ideas of a closed, cyclical universe

The Wikipedia link above has lots of summaries and references to the idea, and is worth a thorough reading.
 

Speaking of logic, the only reasonable answer would be that we indeed are living in an eternal and infinite space, where big bangs are occurring infinitely without need for cause.

An affirmation of the concept of eternal return is not the only reasonable answer to the question it proposes. Such a conclusion requires a lot of assumptions about physical law, many of which are contradicted by data.

Therammo, by “big bangs” in the above, do you mean “big bounces”? As I mentioned above, this model is largely rejected now by cosmologists, with only a few purely hypothetical models and fringe science ideas supporting it.

The idea that the universe expands eternally, and an possibly endless series of big bangs occur due to large scale quantum fluctuations in the nearly empty space that results, doesn’t have the same status as a largely rejected theory as the big bounce, but because of its lack of practical application, like the big bounce and eternal return, has been little developed as a scientific theory. (For more on this idea, search the phrase “nothing cosmology”, of see the Wikipedia page of one of its first (1973) proponents, Edward Tryon)

An IMO delightful fictional realization of a big bounce can be read in the Hugo-nominated 1971 novel Tau Zero.
 

According to this theory, I will live the same life again and again for eternity. Is this proof that we indeed may be living in hell? A hell we can't escape... ever...

Assuming eternal return to be true, and discarding mystical, nonphysical ideas like the existence of immortal, conscious souls, none of us would be aware of having lived the same life over and over many widely separated () times. So while the idea may seem hellish, our human experience of eternal return would be no different than the experience of a “one time only” universe.

You seem to be touching on the basic philosophical conundrum of existentialism here, therammo.
 

I have a problem with the premise that we live in a random universe.

That the universe is random, in a true mathematical sense, isn’t a requirement of various eternal return theories. As described in its Wikipedia article, the first physics treatments of such a theory, ca 1871, used purely deterministic, classical Newtonian physics. Perhaps the most famous treatment of the idea, Poincaré recurrence theorem (1890) is purely mathematical. Interestingly, in my experience, this theorem is now useful largely in the study of computer simulations of dynamic systems, rather than of physical systems themselves.

#5 therammo

therammo

    Thinking

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts

Posted 30 March 2015 - 03:42 PM

Assuming eternal return to be true, and discarding mystical, nonphysical ideas like the existence of immortal, conscious souls, none of us would be aware of having lived the same life over and over many widely separated () times. So while the idea may seem hellish, our human experience of eternal return would be no different than the experience of a “one time only” universe.

 

 
 

True, but that doesnt change the fact that we will live same life again and again. So if my life is hell now, it means that if the eternal return theory is true, I will always live like in hell?


Edited by sanctus, 31 March 2015 - 01:29 AM.
Fixed quote/ reply


#6 pgrmdave

pgrmdave

    Lurking

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3057 posts

Posted 30 March 2015 - 03:56 PM

According to this theory, I will live the same life again and again for eternity.


That depends on whether or not you think that a perfect recreation of a thing and the prior thing which was recreated are the "same" thing or different things. I would argue that they are different things, even if all their values are identical.

#7 CraigD

CraigD

    Creating

  • Administrators
  • 8034 posts

Posted 02 April 2015 - 07:17 AM

True, but that doesnt change the fact that we will live same life again and again.

According to the concept of eternal return (it’s termed a concept, not a theory, because it doesn’t provide predictive explanations of a wide range of physical phenomena) you will experience the life you experience a single time. When the entire history of the universe is repeated, “a you” will experience it again, but with no recollection of any previous lifetime. This experience is no different if it occurs only once, or is repeated many or an infinite number of times. The concept of eternal return bears not analogy to the religious ideas of reincarnation and carma, in which there is some connection between a series of lifetimes experienced by the same soul. In eternal return, the “you” in one reoccurrence is identical to, but not the same or in any way causally connected, to the “you” in another.

It’s noteworthy that eternal return doesn’t necessarily imply any relative temporal order. In some variations, an infinite number of universe histories occur simultaneously at great distances from one another. Because there are a finite number of possible universe histories, there are an infinite number of occurrence of each one.
 

So if my life is hell now, it means that if the eternal return theory is true, I will always live like in hell?

A person describing their life as “hell” is in the domain of psychology or religion, not physics, and little related to the concept of eternal return.

#8 therammo

therammo

    Thinking

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts

Posted 03 April 2015 - 12:57 AM

According to the concept of eternal return (it’s termed a concept, not a theory, because it doesn’t provide predictive explanations of a wide range of physical phenomena) you will experience the life you experience a single time. When the entire history of the universe is repeated, “a you” will experience it again, but with no recollection of any previous lifetime. This experience is no different if it occurs only once, or is repeated many or an infinite number of times. The concept of eternal return bears not analogy to the religious ideas of reincarnation and carma, in which there is some connection between a series of lifetimes experienced by the same soul. In eternal return, the “you” in one reoccurrence is identical to, but not the same or in any way causally connected, to the “you” in another.

It’s noteworthy that eternal return doesn’t necessarily imply any relative temporal order. In some variations, an infinite number of universe histories occur simultaneously at great distances from one another. Because there are a finite number of possible universe histories, there are an infinite number of occurrence of each one.
 
A person describing their life as “hell” is in the domain of psychology or religion, not physics, and little related to the concept of eternal return.

''When the entire history of the universe is repeated, “a you” will experience it again, but with no recollection of any previous lifetime''

 

Well, it still doesnt mean that it won't happen even though we will never be aware that we have lived that life before. It still means that we are reocurring infinite number of times. For eternity...

 

What is your opinion on the eternal return? Do you think you will eventually live again when atoms and particles form exact same universe as ours? 





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: infinity, space, eternal, life, multiverse