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Forgive Them Lord!


pagetheoracle

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I think this quote from the Bible is about realization.  By this I mean that Jesus was trying to say 'Forgive them Lord for they know not what they do' because we only realize 'after an act,' the consequences of that action.  In other words action is unconscious but memory and the after effects are not.

 

do, ne , say, preach : Maybe the Jesus dynamic is here for a reason.

 

Humans (especially the recent ones) talk ALOT!!! , compare the typical need to exist in todays day and age, and without "versed" abilities, your doomed to shovel coal for Scrooge (or await your Turkey while your dying (Timmy)).

 

"Lord" can also be the "Scrooge" - so ineffect Jesus himelf is now in this case someone that talks too much.

 

and...Some people like too repeat: That God writes through us. If that is the case then what is the piont in writing in the first place?

ie. He's not such a great writer in my opinion.

Edited by ErlyRisa
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I think this quote from the Bible is about realization. By this I mean that Jesus was trying to say 'Forgive them Lord for they know not what they do' because we only realize 'after an act,' the consequences of that action. In other words action is unconscious but memory and the after effects are not.

I don’t think the Christian gospels, which detail that family of religion’s story of the execution by crucifixion of its central character, Jesus, are intended as a description of a distinction between unconscious and conscious thought, or to suggest that Jesus advocated a psychological model similar to ones advocated by psychologist known for emphasizing the importance of this distinction, such as Sigmund Freud.

 

The idea of a separate conscious and unconscious mind was, I think unknown to the writers of the 4 gospel books of the Bible. Although many sources, such as this encyclopedia article, assert that “The idea of an unconscious mind originated in antiquity” I don’t believe such ideas were similar enough to the 20th century idea of the conscious and unconscious mind for people living in the early part of the first millennium (1 – 1000 AD) to have had a thought like you are describing, Page.

 

I also disagree with the claim “we only realize 'after an act,' the consequences of that action. In other words action is unconscious but memory and the after effects are not.” Sane people are expected to be able to understand the consequences of their planned actions before doing them. People who are not able to do this are considered insane, and in many legal systems, not considered guilty of committing crimes for which they are unable to understand the consequences.

 

Luke 23:33 (KJV),

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

is, in my interpretation, intended to explain to Christians that Jesus father, God, might have terribly punished the soldiers who took Jesus cloths and executed him, had Jesus not pleaded that they be forgiven, explaining that they didn’t know he was God’s son. Such a message was, I think, seen as important to the early Christian church leaders who selected from the many then existing accounts of Jesus’s execution the texts included in the Bible as the 4 gospels, because it further explained how a God, a powerful supernatural being, could allow the killing of his son, by emphasized that Jesus’s execution was consensual and voluntary.

 

Note that the “forgive them” line appears in only 1 of the 4 gospels. The other 3 gospels contain no mention of Jesus forgiving anyone.

 

The 4 gospels disagree other ways: 3 of them (all except John) describe supernatural events, such as a 3 hour “darkening of the sun”, and in one, Matthew, an earthquake, and the rising from their graves of many “bodies of the saints”.

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 People know what they do in daily business.

 

 Pretty sure theres a passage in the Bible that says "Don't be a Sucker."

 

Actually most people have no idea what they are doing in daily life (especially as we age).

Many of us just "go through the motions", because the nearest neighbour is also doing that.

 

eg. Being a desk clerk -> It no longer takes the new generation long to figure out that alot of what is "done", is pointless. Especially when your sitting there doing nothing for 8 hrs straight waiting to go home. and when you get home you don't know why you went to work in the first place in order for you too have that home:

 

Your only justification is to say that I am in my position in society, in order for slightly smarter people to create me the home and microwave so that I can become more like them through the Television (and now game console).

 

What happens if this is as good as it gets? (and your only 12yrs old when you realise)

 

Only thing to offer the children of tomorrow: is the commodity that was and was supposedly always free: Valued partnership (spouse) , b/c even that was stolen from our generation (aids crisis - some of us thought we were going to die) (Lawyers and divorce court - divorce is exacerbated by advertising the "drudgery" of the typical male) - and then there are some of those cultures that take the task of striving for life out of the hands of the offspring, and arrange their children's lives.

 

-> Those in power are just that: in power - and they do it through mass media, or in the old world sense: a nearest neighbour policy...to keep you buying/doing so that they may sit thier as media/manipulation "experts" - b/c apparently - they don't question the drudgery of life.

 

There is a way for those that do not know what they do, to change things...it's called abstinence from society. (Leaving your parents behind to sit behind the TV and die a slow painful death --themselves! , rather than having them try to do it to you)

 

Tip: Don't do anything too support a media empire (Journalism), or allow your parents too overly care for you as a bundled package for thier own benefit -> lets see where the real part of an economy lies. (b/c - after all, Jesus was one the ultimate media sensations, that left his parents behind --it was the parents that followed HIM around like a bad smell.)

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I don’t think the Christian gospels, which detail that family of religion’s story of the execution by crucifixion of its central character, Jesus, are intended as a description of a distinction between unconscious and conscious thought, or to suggest that Jesus advocated a psychological model similar to ones advocated by psychologist known for emphasizing the importance of this distinction, such as Sigmund Freud.

 

The idea of a separate conscious and unconscious mind was, I think unknown to the writers of the 4 gospel books of the Bible. Although many sources, such as this encyclopedia article, assert that “The idea of an unconscious mind originated in antiquity” I don’t believe such ideas were similar enough to the 20th century idea of the conscious and unconscious mind for people living in the early part of the first millennium (1 – 1000 AD) to have had a thought like you are describing, Page.

 

I also disagree with the claim “we only realize 'after an act,' the consequences of that action. In other words action is unconscious but memory and the after effects are not.” Sane people are expected to be able to understand the consequences of their planned actions before doing them. People who are not able to do this are considered insane, and in many legal systems, not considered guilty of committing crimes for which they are unable to understand the consequences.

 

Luke 23:33 (KJV),

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

is, in my interpretation, intended to explain to Christians that Jesus father, God, might have terribly punished the soldiers who took Jesus cloths and executed him, had Jesus not pleaded that they be forgiven, explaining that they didn’t know he was God’s son. Such a message was, I think, seen as important to the early Christian church leaders who selected from the many then existing accounts of Jesus’s execution the texts included in the Bible as the 4 gospels, because it further explained how a God, a powerful supernatural being, could allow the killing of his son, by emphasized that Jesus’s execution was consensual and voluntary.

 

Note that the “forgive them” line appears in only 1 of the 4 gospels. The other 3 gospels contain no mention of Jesus forgiving anyone.

 

The 4 gospels disagree other ways: 3 of them (all except John) describe supernatural events, such as a 3 hour “darkening of the sun”, and in one, Matthew, an earthquake, and the rising from their graves of many “bodies of the saints”.

 

They might not have known but we do.  Even if the writers of the testament didn't understand it and even if I misunderstand it now, it is through the light of looking back on what has been done by me or others.  I used the text to put my interpretation upon it in the p[resent and to make the point I did.

 

Sane people have the memories of the folly of their past actions to rein them in, insane people do not (Think of your misspent youth and your life now or at least I do as a 63 year old person who did things in the past 'just for the hell of it' and am now suffering the after effects of.  There is a difference between obeying the law put down by other people and your own self-control, based on consequences or imagined consequences upon yourself or others).

 

My belief is that everyone is innocent (or stupid) in this sense and that only experience and memory keeps such ideas in place, to stop us continuing our folly.

 

To further clarify, think about the following analogy of settlers, pioneers and would-be immigrants.  The last want to get away from a life they consider 'hell' (too well known / boring as with the young and their constant belly-aching about life in a small town) and move towards what they consider 'heaven' (the unknown - new lands to explore (as with pioneers)).  Do they really know where they are going?  No because they haven't 'arrived' yet but they believe the hype about the place.  Settlers live ordinary, controlled lives - not wanting to be anywhere else (aware of everything around them in detail / experienced adults).  Think also of life as an experiment where you can theorize about what you'll find when you make a leap of faith into the unknown but cannot 'know' until you actually arrive at your destination - hence science fiction writers and conspiracy theorists (scientists may have a better idea than the former but it is still a 'guess').  You could say that science is the adult that has arrived and the religious followers are the innocent immigrants, traveling hopefully but still in the dark at what only experience can reveal:  Experience becomes knowledge (memory) as imagination is the carrot that leads us forward. 

 

You might also like to look up The Dunning - Kruger effect (General Ignorance in Q.I.), which states that incompetent people have no insight into their incompetence, so don't know that they are incompetent.

 

Hope this makes it clearer.

Edited by pagetheoracle
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They might not have known but we do.  Even if the writers of the testament didn't understand it and even if I misunderstand it now, it is through the light of looking back on what has been done by me or others.  I used the text to put my interpretation upon it in the p[resent and to make the point I did.

 

Sane people have the memories of the folly of their past actions to rein them in, insane people do not (Think of your misspent youth and your life now or at least I do as a 63 year old person who did things in the past 'just for the hell of it' and am now suffering the after effects of.  There is a difference between obeying the law put down by other people and your own self-control, based on consequences or imagined consequences upon yourself or others).

 

My belief is that everyone is innocent (or stupid) in this sense and that only experience and memory keeps such ideas in place, to stop us continuing our folly.

 

To further clarify, think about the following analogy of settlers, pioneers and would-be immigrants.  The last want to get away from a life they consider 'hell' (too well known / boring as with the young and their constant belly-aching about life in a small town) and move towards what they consider 'heaven' (the unknown - new lands to explore (as with pioneers)).  Do they really know where they are going?  No because they haven't 'arrived' yet but they believe the hype about the place.  Settlers live ordinary, controlled lives - not wanting to be anywhere else (aware of everything around them in detail / experienced adults).  Think also of life as an experiment where you can theorize about what you'll find when you make a leap of faith into the unknown but cannot 'know' until you actually arrive at your destination - hence science fiction writers and conspiracy theorists (scientists may have a better idea than the former but it is still a 'guess').  You could say that science is the adult that has arrived and the religious followers are the innocent immigrants, traveling hopefully but still in the dark at what only experience can reveal:  Experience becomes knowledge (memory) as imagination is the carrot that leads us forward. 

 

You might also like to look up The Dunning - Kruger effect (General Ignorance in Q.I.), which states that incompetent people have no insight into their incompetence, so don't know that they are incompetent.

 

Hope this makes it clearer.

 

In the days of growing crops, imagination, was simply hoping for the best, and then slowly learning to calculate for the best.

Nothing has really changed.

 

While you wait for your crop to grow, you dance and eat last years crop. Which is another set of experiencing peoples creativity (imagination)

b/c Crops take a year to grow: This gives ALOT of free time to do said dancing/partying.

 

What happens when the periods of partying get boring?; is that members of the group become even more imaginative e.g. Two males are sitting back relaxing watching a baby goat drink it's mothers milk...see that their own wife/mother has stopped giving milk the pair decide to try and milk the goat.

-This is a TEENAGE act. It's the adult that found out about the curiosity of the teenager, and either punishes(religious/safety officer) or steals their invention and says cheese.

 

Today it's information:

Adults create established criteria in order for a group to be stable (according to set practices)

Adults promote the creativity of their offspring where deemed appropriate (Facebook/established business(only responsible person is owner of business))

 

-->Note: That b/c in our system the establishment is based on the adult needing reward for themselves: They do more of the promotion of said children's work...while stealing the offspring's profit: b/c as adults senility has set in and they are no longer "creatives". - they are now just leeches: trying to keep stability in a system that is done in such away so that they may sit at the camp fire: Continuing too "spin" stabilisation rulings (lawyer).

 

The scientist can and does behave in a similar manner: It was a creative teenager, turns into an adult...knows its out of creativity: but thanks to established criteria it co-operates with neighbouring adults in order to profit out of its offspring's work. (aka as Religious Faith - or Church)

 

The real difference: The biggest Churches in the world only exchange in absolutes (food/good company) ... government/Science/Established prop artists/Lawyers/Complaining adults/"vocal indviduals"/etc (ie Mostly that which toughts being adult but too the observer actually looks like child) ask/exchange in much larger amounts...

 

...mainly b/c there are less of them and more of the average that live by their means and are in effect more adult like.

 

in other words:

 

Most adults, when you take thier wage out from under thier feet...turn into quivering children, that band together much like a scene out the the Lord of the Flies....and the first thing they do is look toward the nearest bank (food reserve) - in effect stealing from thier offspring.

 

This is the state of the world at the moment: and the offspring are learning to sharpen knives. (Some of them are more adult than the current established over grown children)

 

It is/will/always has been the Church (that lives at the lowest exchange rate) that rescues the most amount of people...not some "scientifically" established helper organisation.

(At least Church provides entertainment once a week - what does Greenpeace do?)

Edited by ErlyRisa
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  • 3 weeks later...

If we project who we are into the world, then how can we judge ourselves or others as we have nothing to compare our lives to?  This is the true meaning of innocence.  Only by aspiring to be other than who we are (role models for better or worse 'I want to be like them!' / 'I don't want to be anything like that person!"), do we become aware of the existence of a different way of living and judge our present way of life (and that of others) as wanting in some way (become guilty of value judgement:  When we're centred, we don't care about what others think about us, so are not insecure.  Shattered egos are split into awareness of good and evil (see my post on the Tree of Good & Evil, in theology forum), instead of united as a whole being, that sees only differences and similarities (neutral stance, rather than strong pro and anti feelings, the source of conflict).

 

I based this on observations of my neighbour, who my wife criticized for not exercising his dogs.  The thing is this pattern reflects how he raises his children too as they only seem to venture into the outside world, when forced to go to school, by the authorities. 

Edited by pagetheoracle
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If we project who we are into the world, then how can we judge ourselves or others as we have nothing to compare our lives to?  This is the true meaning of innocence.  Only by aspiring to be other than who we are (role models for better or worse 'I want to be like them!' / 'I don't want to be anything like that person!"), do we become aware of the existence of a different way of living and judge our present way of life (and that of others) as wanting in some way (become guilty of value judgement:  When we're centred, we don't care about what others think about us, so are not insecure.  Shattered egos are split into awareness of good and evil (see my post on the Tree of Good & Evil, in theology forum), instead of united as a whole being, that sees only differences and similarities (neutral stance, rather than strong pro and anti feelings, the source of conflict).

 

I based this on observations of my neighbour, who my wife criticized for not exercising his dogs.  The thing is this pattern reflects how he raises his children too as they only seem to venture into the outside world, when forced to go to school, by the authorities. 

 

There is always TV/Writing/Actors/Scholars...You know, the ones giving it away.

 

which brings up the topic of school: may-aswell lock the children infront of the TV, it's easier/cheaper and seems too work. It will happen anyway, there are self help books, and there are advanced teaching disciplines/methods pubilshed/sold as product for the masses.

 

Personally I like the idea of wikipedia. I'm not sure how it will keep going without an economy...but it would be great if stuff like that in the format that its in survives anything that instability of society can throw at it. In my opinion sliced bread is nothing by comparison, and most if not all of the internet wouldn't be missed...but wikipedia very much would be (missed).

 

The question is where creativity comes from in a serene world? History has showed us that most of the time serenity collapses...and then creativity starts again: as if boredom is what sets in due to serenity.

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And how do you know that they know?  This sounds like an assumption, not fact.

When the facts aren't in you sometimes have to Assume.. Thats called Real Life

 

If people do not know what they are doing during their own existence, then I assume they are retarded.

Or I don't give a Rats *** who some of these people might be who have NO direct influence in my life.

 

Seriously? - 'You don't know what you're doing' sounds like an assumption?

 

How can any person with a functional brain and body NOT know what they are doing at any given time?

Just Stop Bullshitting Yourself with endless Liberalism nonsense.

 

You are here. You can do something. Now do it, or don't. Try or not try.

Stop with all this obfuscated bullshit.

 

You want to be a Christian, or you Don't... You get Baptized or you Don't.

Nobody really cares either which way.

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When the facts aren't in you sometimes have to Assume.. Thats called Real Life

 

If people do not know what they are doing during their own existence, then I assume they are retarded.

Or I don't give a Rats *** who some of these people might be who have NO direct influence in my life.

 

Seriously? - 'You don't know what you're doing' sounds like an assumption?

 

How can any person with a functional brain and body NOT know what they are doing at any given time?

Just Stop Bullshitting Yourself with endless Liberalism nonsense.

 

You are here. You can do something. Now do it, or don't. Try or not try.

Stop with all this obfuscated bullshit.

 

You want to be a Christian, or you Don't... You get Baptized or you Don't.

Nobody really cares either which way.

Actually it's an observation - I see it in myself, so why shouldn't it exist in other people?

 

You don't "have to" assume but you just do.  There is no force involved:  You can know or not know - to assume is to make up stories based on your best guess but that could be way out.

 

Who is this nobody who doesn't care - if it's you, say so and stop hiding behind other people or "the crowd is against you because they outnumber you, so give up." Unproven nonsense in other words. 

 

If you are walking along and get hit by a bus as you're crossing the road, is it because you are paying attention and you are aware of the outside world? No, it is because your attention is elsewhere and is obvious (assumption*) to anyone who has experienced this, even with regards to a minor accident, which is why the term exists to describe the opposite of 'deliberate.'

 

*My little joke

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In the days of growing crops, imagination, was simply hoping for the best, and then slowly learning to calculate for the best.

Nothing has really changed.

 

While you wait for your crop to grow, you dance and eat last years crop. Which is another set of experiencing peoples creativity (imagination)

b/c Crops take a year to grow: This gives ALOT of free time to do said dancing/partying.

 

What happens when the periods of partying get boring?; is that members of the group become even more imaginative e.g. Two males are sitting back relaxing watching a baby goat drink it's mothers milk...see that their own wife/mother has stopped giving milk the pair decide to try and milk the goat.

-This is a TEENAGE act. It's the adult that found out about the curiosity of the teenager, and either punishes(religious/safety officer) or steals their invention and says cheese.

 

Today it's information:

Adults create established criteria in order for a group to be stable (according to set practices)

Adults promote the creativity of their offspring where deemed appropriate (Facebook/established business(only responsible person is owner of business))

 

-->Note: That b/c in our system the establishment is based on the adult needing reward for themselves: They do more of the promotion of said children's work...while stealing the offspring's profit: b/c as adults senility has set in and they are no longer "creatives". - they are now just leeches: trying to keep stability in a system that is done in such away so that they may sit at the camp fire: Continuing too "spin" stabilisation rulings (lawyer).

 

The scientist can and does behave in a similar manner: It was a creative teenager, turns into an adult...knows its out of creativity: but thanks to established criteria it co-operates with neighbouring adults in order to profit out of its offspring's work. (aka as Religious Faith - or Church)

 

The real difference: The biggest Churches in the world only exchange in absolutes (food/good company) ... government/Science/Established prop artists/Lawyers/Complaining adults/"vocal indviduals"/etc (ie Mostly that which toughts being adult but too the observer actually looks like child) ask/exchange in much larger amounts...

 

...mainly b/c there are less of them and more of the average that live by their means and are in effect more adult like.

 

in other words:

 

Most adults, when you take thier wage out from under thier feet...turn into quivering children, that band together much like a scene out the the Lord of the Flies....and the first thing they do is look toward the nearest bank (food reserve) - in effect stealing from thier offspring.

 

This is the state of the world at the moment: and the offspring are learning to sharpen knives. (Some of them are more adult than the current established over grown children)

 

It is/will/always has been the Church (that lives at the lowest exchange rate) that rescues the most amount of people...not some "scientifically" established helper organisation.

(At least Church provides entertainment once a week - what does Greenpeace do?)

 

There is always TV/Writing/Actors/Scholars...You know, the ones giving it away.

 

which brings up the topic of school: may-aswell lock the children infront of the TV, it's easier/cheaper and seems too work. It will happen anyway, there are self help books, and there are advanced teaching disciplines/methods pubilshed/sold as product for the masses.

 

Personally I like the idea of wikipedia. I'm not sure how it will keep going without an economy...but it would be great if stuff like that in the format that its in survives anything that instability of society can throw at it. In my opinion sliced bread is nothing by comparison, and most if not all of the internet wouldn't be missed...but wikipedia very much would be (missed).

 

The question is where creativity comes from in a serene world? History has showed us that most of the time serenity collapses...and then creativity starts again: as if boredom is what sets in due to serenity.

Creativity doesn't come from the serene world as such but from stepping back and observing.  If we are lost in action, we are too busy carrying out our last program to come up with something new (the problem with habit or living hand to mouth).  You are not going to get out of such habitual thought or follow on action, unless you stop and reassess your life.

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I based this on observations of my neighbour, who my wife criticized for not exercising his dogs.  The thing is this pattern reflects how he raises his children too as they only seem to venture into the outside world, when forced to go to school, by the authorities. 

Before I make broad, sweeping generalisations I like to consider more than a single anecdotal example. You might wish to consider the merits of that approach.

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Before I make broad, sweeping generalisations I like to consider more than a single anecdotal example. You might wish to consider the merits of that approach.

I did.  I based my idea on my own life plus the Dunning-Kruger test I mentioned at the start.  In other words personal experience plus other people's research which reflects my own findings.  I brought in my neighbour as a personal example of this lack of insight.  Perhaps you lack this insight into your own life too and that is why you mention it?  I think it is why Raccoon got so upset at my reply to his first post, for which I humbly apologize as that was not my intention (Bit of ego on my part, getting in my way of a peaceful exchange of views).

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I did.  I based my idea on my own life plus the Dunning-Kruger test I mentioned at the start.  In other words personal experience plus other people's research which reflects my own findings.  I brought in my neighbour as a personal example of this lack of insight.  Perhaps you lack this insight into your own life too and that is why you mention it?  I think it is why Raccoon got so upset at my reply to his first post, for which I humbly apologize as that was not my intention (Bit of ego on my part, getting in my way of a peaceful exchange of views).

If you based your statement upon the varied sources you mention why did you categorically state in your post that ou had based it upon a single anecdote? Sloppiness? I see no plausible alternative.

 

It is well understood from personal experience and from many scientific studies that the focus of our consciousness varies through time for a complex array of reasons. We are also governed by habits formed through upbringing, peer pressure, cultural mores and the like. Awareness of this hardly constitutes an insight, but is rather a constant presence in ones approach to life, or ought to be.

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If you based your statement upon the varied sources you mention why did you categorically state in your post that ou had based it upon a single anecdote? Sloppiness? I see no plausible alternative.

 

It is well understood from personal experience and from many scientific studies that the focus of our consciousness varies through time for a complex array of reasons. We are also governed by habits formed through upbringing, peer pressure, cultural mores and the like. Awareness of this hardly constitutes an insight, but is rather a constant presence in ones approach to life, or ought to be.

No, I replied to your post which stated you needed more than one source and I gave it to you.  My 'insight' was generated by what I realized about my neighbour, which is not the same thing but the initial reaction.

 

Can't argue with your second point.

 

Sloppiness?  You missed the 'Y' in you, in your first statement.  Didn't spell check or are you too busy / rattled? (Could be both of course).

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