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Finding Alien Life And Changing Religious Philosophies


Deepwater6

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I agree Craig. I don't see anyone that have come up with any plausible theory for traveling ftl.

I’ve not seen any, either.

 

This isn’t to say there aren’t some interesting proposals. Two that come quickly to mind are the Alcubierre drive and the Morris–Thorne wormhole.

 

I’d not call Alcubierre or Thorne’s descriptions “implausible”, but rather intentionally imcomplete, because both require the use of the negative energy density kind of exotic matter. Nobody knows if this kind of exotic matter is possible or not, with the best thoughts hinting that the “harder than hard” vacuum involved in the Casimir effect may be an example of it, if it’s possible.

 

To the best of my knowledge (which is rough, as his work is a little beyond my only-undergrad physics-educate grasp), Alcubierre was purposefully ambiguous about causality violation from his drive, just suggesting “the math works out” for either case.

 

Thorne was unambiguous, giving a simple, nontechnical example in his 2004 Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein's Outrageous Legacy of how his wormhole could violate causality without the high-speed spacecraft described in Baker’s webpage, but rather via General Relativity in such a way that an ordinary room could have a literal door into its past.

 

When I wrote the statement about whether 'other beings' came here in craft that could travel ftl, I was being facetious. I quite realize the effects of such a possibility.

Facetious: treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant.

 

Not a good way to be in a non-humor internet forum :naughty: Please be chastised.

 

Seriously, my experience has been that few, even people with undergrad and advanced science degrees, are sufficiently familiar and impressed with the implication that faster than light travel or communication results in time travel and causality violations. The majority of popular science fiction (which I love, despite its faults) has lead us to take FTL as an innocuous likely future given, while only an obscure minority has stressed how profoundly and ontologically weird it would be if FTL was commonplace. That the past cannot be changed is deeply ingrained in our common ontology, the assumption that we will ongoingly and without limits find ways to go faster ingrained in our cultural beliefs. That these assumptions are contradictory is, I think, little and poorly understood.

 

Back on topic, to theology...

 

 

 

So with our understanding of physics and 'relativity,' the question(s) might be; are angels real ...

This isn’t a scientific question, because “angel” is too poorly defined a term in this context for science. To make and test scientific hypotheses about angels, you first must be able to describe a collection of measurements that indicate the presence of them, or an effect they have on measurable objects or phenomena. This has been done for such things as various particles predicted by quantum physics, but not for angels.

 

and how did they travel here? Did they even have to travel to here from anywhere else in the universe? Now if science has concluded (and I don't think it has) that GOD, His angels, and supernatural events never happened, how does science explain?

Given a specific test such as I describe above, it’s easy to design an experiment to scientifically test if God or angels exist. The Pentateuch (first 5 books of the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim holy scriptures) contains tests nearly meeting scientific requirements – one such is in Exodus 7 (KJV):

8And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,

9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.

10And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the Lord had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

This is from a story about showing someone – Pharaoh – skeptical of the existence of an entity – the Lord – capable of doing extraordinary things – changing staffs into snakes – proof that He exists.

 

Aaron’s staff to snake demonstration lacks a key scientific requirement – it’s not adequately reproducible. I can’t reproduce it, nor can the most devout religionists I’ve known.

 

Knowledgeable religionists I’ve known – professional and lay clergy of several kinds – have told me the reason tests of the existence of God such as this are not reproducible is because God doesn’t want people skeptical of His existence to conclude He exists, but wants only people willing to accept it without proof, as a demonstration of faith.

 

This difference – the clear demonstration of His existence to a skeptical Pharaoh in Exodus 7 vs. the present day requirement to accept His existence without proof – triggers my baloney detector, and is among the reasons I’m an atheist. I believe the events described in Exodus 7 didn’t happen.

 

As far as that goes, is Einstein's relativity theory, which now postulates on some very substantial experimental data, against the grain, so-to-speak? I mean if some of these supernatural events have taken place, such as, angels coming from somewhere "up there," does this defy the theory?

The various descriptions of angels in the Christian Bible (human-like, 6-winged, or 4-winged) don’t violate the laws of classical or modern physics. Their descriptions, though weird, seem to take pains to describe them physically realistically – for example, flying angels are described as having at least 1 pair of wings dedicated to flight.

 

Descriptions in the Christian bibles of angels don’t, to the best of my knowledge, describe angels as descending from “up there”, except this account of a dream from Genesis 28:

12And he [Jacob] dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

and this description of something yet to happen, from John 1:

51And he [Jesus] saith unto him [Nathanael], Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

The 4 4-winged, 4-faced angels in Ezekiel 1are described as coming “out of the midst of a whirlwind that approaches from the North:

4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

From such account, I think that the writers of the Bible believed the sky (firmament) to be a solid, not necessarily spherical, dome separating the Earthly realm from the heavenly, a view that persisted in some cultures until at perhaps as late as the 1500s AD. Early cultures, such as those of the Sumerians, Cannites and early Hebrews, believed the innermost layer of heaven to consist of water, but as suggested by illustration such as the Flammarion engraving:

An 1888 illustration believed intended to show the worldview of people hundreds of years earlier, that feature may have faded with time from the popular imagination.

 

A caution on the term “angel” as used in religious writing: it appears to me to refers more to the function of being a “messenger of God” than anatomical features. For example, Revelation 1-2 contains refers many times to Christian church leaders as “angels”. Early Christians were, it appears, accepting of the idea that their human teachers and leaders were messengers of God, even though they didn’t claim to have come from or visited heaven.

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Craig, a response to you will take some time. You've opened up a whole set of dynamics for me and a flippant answer, which I have been chastised for recently, will not likely be forthcoming again. I may however, throw a little humor at y'all now and again, I've been known to do that.

 

I would say about at least one of your points, though you have already expressed that you don't believe the events in Exodus happened anyway; you wrote that the "staff to snake" isn't reproducible, thus making it an event that couldn't be measured scientifically.

 

But, in fact, according to the story, it was reproduced. The pharaoh's "wizards" reproduced the same thing. How they did it is one of the things I have pursued for some time. According to the story they were able to reproduce several of the "miracles," up to a point.  

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Moontanman, I haven't ignored a response to you. In fact I already wrote it in a word doc. However, I don't seem able to transfer it to this forum, and I really don't want to retype it - but I did have an answer for you. I'll figure out how to do this yet.

 

 

I look forward to your response, just remember I expect evidence to be as extraordinary as the claims it supports, I showed you in scripture how you were mistaken and you still owe me a personal apology for insinuations that because I am atheist I cannot be trusted to be neutral and down right character assassination... 

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BTW, I looked at your youtube channel after I wrote the above comments. I could see immediately where your bent, bends. Interesting that I wrote something about atheism, since you have the David Silverman video about such things.

 

It was Joel Achenbach of the Washington Post that quoted Carl Sagen in 1996, who said: "I am not an atheist. An atheist is someone who has compelling evidence that there is no Judeo-Christian-Islamic GOD. I am not that wise, but neither do I consider there to be anything approaching adequate evidence for such a GOD. Why are you in such a hurry to make up your mind? Why not simply wait until there is compelling evidence?"

 

 

This post was unnecessarily insulting as well and is a personal attack on my own veracity.. 

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As has been written, I've had difficulty getting this post to this format. So it's a few days late and is not finished. For some reason some of the doc is missing - who knows what I did - must have hit delete when I meant to push copy or something. Now I'm looking for the rest of it. However, I do not think my response is near strong enough, but this is what I wrote days ago, and for now it will have to suffice, Moontanman. It did not seem to come with the formatting I had. I guess I'm going to have to try a few things here to see just exactly how to do what I was trying to do.

 

Your words stung some. They stung because at once I realized just how arrogant I’ve been. For me to have presumed anything about who you are and what you believe was the height of arrogance. For that I apologize. Though your rebuttal may have proved some of my conclusions, at least partially, it is still ill-mannerly of me to have assumed as much as it seems that I did. You have proven your point, as far as showing where you got your assertions from. I disagree with you about their meanings, and maintain that you are desperately mistaken, but you did at least show the citations, and therefore were not in any way being dishonest. I apologize for the insinuation.

 

With that said, let’s try a different approach. I don’t set out on my course in life to proselytize. I do attempt to persuade, if possible, as most do, a particular point of view, and I rarely shirk opportunities. I am never so arrogant however, that I think I can’t be taught by anyone. For I believe, and live my life with this view: As I have said forever, quoting someone I don’t even remember anymore, ‘I am forever a student.’

 

The Bible is one of the subjects that I have studied much longer and more intensely than probably any other. My reasons are both personal and spiritual. In my initial readings, I had the same problems that you do; with words that both shocked me and caused me to question validity. I have since understood the necessity that some of the actions, represented. It is still hard though, even today, to accept some of the precepts that were adhered to by the ‘ancients,’ for I liken them to some of the same zealot attitudes of radical Islam. But I will state here, there is a very large difference between what Islam teaches and what was described in some of the verses you quoted. On their face, it is difficult to explain. Someone immensely more knowledgeable than I; a theologian maybe, could probably give a better explanation, but it was me that stepped into this gap, and so it will be me that answers.

 

I do know the difference between an atheist and an anti-theist. I apologize, I tend to use the terms interchangeably; for anti-theism rejects the belief in any deity, although you will find that in some definitions, there is the belief that at least one deity exists, and an atheist is said to be the rejection of any deity at all. Mostly it is semantics to me. Arguing whether you can scientifically prove there is a GOD or angels, or whatever, spiritually thinking, is fairly a moot point. You cannot prove love exists, and yet we all seem to know what it is – at least I hope we all know.

As for the citation related to Carl Sagan, I gave it, as you may have seen later. That is what you were referring to, correct? I wasn’t sure because your sentence: “This statement needs a citation please.” Could have meant that you were asking me to give up sources that I may not have in the past and will not now, i.e., “I have had discussion with many scientists, and they are not quick to come to the conclusions you seem to have.”

 

Now, as for the scriptures you quoted; and I hesitate here because I’m wondering if as deep6 has mentioned, we should be starting another thread. But since I see that Craig also has gotten into the conversation, at least about angels, I suppose it is okay to continue.

 

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

 

In that verse there is much before-hand that could be talked about. But to summarize, the 70 elders, who were the keepers of the “Law” and sacrements, for lack of a better word, and others with them, were involved in practicing in secret, where they believed GOD could no longer see, things that were specifically forbidden in the Law – such as worship of “other gods,” among some of what they were doing. I believe they were probably like what we might call today, satanists. As you must know, a pact had been agreed during the time of the exodus and both blessing and curse was pronounced on the “contractees.” A blessing for those who adhered to the precepts and Law, and a curse for those who didn’t. The 70 elders and their offspring, and followers, stepped way beyond those boundaries.

I would ask you, how do you feel about some of the atrocities that Hitler performed, and compare them to what Iss is doing today, and tell me you wouldn’t feel the need to punish them for their evil practices. And they are evil, make no mistake about it.

 

"Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

 

In this verse, it is explained that it will be the Medes that are stirred up to attack, and when they did they would commit these crimes. GOD did not tell them to do so, He simply told His prophet Isaiah, this is what they would do.

 

"This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

 

Amalek has a long history of evil practices. In my opinion they may be the offspring, far removed, of the “fallen ones.” They were to be destroyed once and for all – for GOD knew that they would always be an evil thorn in Israel’s life. Take the story in Esther for instance about Haman, who atried to manipulate the Persian king into slaughtering all the Jews. He was a descendant of Amalek.

 

"They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

 

To be honest, the only thing I can say about this is that possibly, Moses was actually saving the livesof the young virgins. Other than that, it is hard to understand the reasoning behind all of it. However, I never think that I can understand what GOD’s reasons are – ask HIM!

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

 

"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."

 

I’m not sure if this was simply following what was already the practices in war at the time, or it was something else. Another hard scripture to understand, given our society’s beliefs. They were absolutely a different culture than ours, and in battle, it was the practice to vanquish your enemy – completely. Keeping the women and children, again may be a way to save their lives. I don’t know.

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Buffy and Moon, I think your statement about interbreed with aliens being completely impossible is too strong. The likelihood of it I agree is very low, why would a more evolved species want to do that and find humans attractive. But if aliens, managed to get to earth, it is quite a safe assumption that their level of science is much higher than ours. So no good argument against them being able to genetically engineer a version of themselves able to interbreed...

 

 

At this point we don't even know if they use the same nucleic acids much less the ones we use. I think it would be very interesting to find life some place else just to clarify this one point. But even if they use DNA with the same nucleotides as I think I've said in the past imagine trying to interbreed sharks with dolphins, they share 3.8 billion years of ancestry but I have my doubts about an inter species marriage...  :eek:

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As has been written, I've had difficulty getting this post to this format. So it's a few days late and is not finished. For some reason some of the doc is missing - who knows what I did - must have hit delete when I meant to push copy or something. Now I'm looking for the rest of it. However, I do not think my response is near strong enough, but this is what I wrote days ago, and for now it will have to suffice, Moontanman. It did not seem to come with the formatting I had. I guess I'm going to have to try a few things here to see just exactly how to do what I was trying to do.

 

Your words stung some. They stung because at once I realized just how arrogant I’ve been. For me to have presumed anything about who you are and what you believe was the height of arrogance. For that I apologize. Though your rebuttal may have proved some of my conclusions, at least partially, it is still ill-mannerly of me to have assumed as much as it seems that I did. You have proven your point, as far as showing where you got your assertions from. I disagree with you about their meanings, and maintain that you are desperately mistaken, but you did at least show the citations, and therefore were not in any way being dishonest. I apologize for the insinuation.

 

With that said, let’s try a different approach. I don’t set out on my course in life to proselytize. I do attempt to persuade, if possible, as most do, a particular point of view, and I rarely shirk opportunities. I am never so arrogant however, that I think I can’t be taught by anyone. For I believe, and live my life with this view: As I have said forever, quoting someone I don’t even remember anymore, ‘I am forever a student.’

 

The Bible is one of the subjects that I have studied much longer and more intensely than probably any other. My reasons are both personal and spiritual. In my initial readings, I had the same problems that you do; with words that both shocked me and caused me to question validity. I have since understood the necessity that some of the actions, represented. It is still hard though, even today, to accept some of the precepts that were adhered to by the ‘ancients,’ for I liken them to some of the same zealot attitudes of radical Islam. But I will state here, there is a very large difference between what Islam teaches and what was described in some of the verses you quoted. On their face, it is difficult to explain. Someone immensely more knowledgeable than I; a theologian maybe, could probably give a better explanation, but it was me that stepped into this gap, and so it will be me that answers.

 

I do know the difference between an atheist and an anti-theist. I apologize, I tend to use the terms interchangeably; for anti-theism rejects the belief in any deity, although you will find that in some definitions, there is the belief that at least one deity exists, and an atheist is said to be the rejection of any deity at all. Mostly it is semantics to me. Arguing whether you can scientifically prove there is a GOD or angels, or whatever, spiritually thinking, is fairly a moot point. You cannot prove love exists, and yet we all seem to know what it is – at least I hope we all know.

As for the citation related to Carl Sagan, I gave it, as you may have seen later. That is what you were referring to, correct? I wasn’t sure because your sentence: “This statement needs a citation please.” Could have meant that you were asking me to give up sources that I may not have in the past and will not now, i.e., “I have had discussion with many scientists, and they are not quick to come to the conclusions you seem to have.”

 

Now, as for the scriptures you quoted; and I hesitate here because I’m wondering if as deep6 has mentioned, we should be starting another thread. But since I see that Craig also has gotten into the conversation, at least about angels, I suppose it is okay to continue.

 

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

 

In that verse there is much before-hand that could be talked about. But to summarize, the 70 elders, who were the keepers of the “Law” and sacrements, for lack of a better word, and others with them, were involved in practicing in secret, where they believed GOD could no longer see, things that were specifically forbidden in the Law – such as worship of “other gods,” among some of what they were doing. I believe they were probably like what we might call today, satanists. As you must know, a pact had been agreed during the time of the exodus and both blessing and curse was pronounced on the “contractees.” A blessing for those who adhered to the precepts and Law, and a curse for those who didn’t. The 70 elders and their offspring, and followers, stepped way beyond those boundaries.

I would ask you, how do you feel about some of the atrocities that Hitler performed, and compare them to what Iss is doing today, and tell me you wouldn’t feel the need to punish them for their evil practices. And they are evil, make no mistake about it.

 

"Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

 

In this verse, it is explained that it will be the Medes that are stirred up to attack, and when they did they would commit these crimes. GOD did not tell them to do so, He simply told His prophet Isaiah, this is what they would do.

 

"This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

 

Amalek has a long history of evil practices. In my opinion they may be the offspring, far removed, of the “fallen ones.” They were to be destroyed once and for all – for GOD knew that they would always be an evil thorn in Israel’s life. Take the story in Esther for instance about Haman, who atried to manipulate the Persian king into slaughtering all the Jews. He was a descendant of Amalek.

 

"They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

 

To be honest, the only thing I can say about this is that possibly, Moses was actually saving the livesof the young virgins. Other than that, it is hard to understand the reasoning behind all of it. However, I never think that I can understand what GOD’s reasons are – ask HIM!

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

 

"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."

 

I’m not sure if this was simply following what was already the practices in war at the time, or it was something else. Another hard scripture to understand, given our society’s beliefs. They were absolutely a different culture than ours, and in battle, it was the practice to vanquish your enemy – completely. Keeping the women and children, again may be a way to save their lives. I don’t know.

 

 

I thank you for setting things straight, to be painted with so broad a brush when the person doing the painting has no clue as to the content of your character and is judging you by what you do not believe is disheartening. 

 

Carl Sagan's wife says he made no such death bed remarks, I provided a link to that fact. 

 

As for the rest it's disturbing to me that any of those things can be justified in any context, slavery, sexual slavery of young girls won as prizes in war after seeing their parents slaughtered, babies dashed on rocks, it almost brings me to tears to even know such things could ever be justified. If you can be content with such horrors and worship the being that allows and demands them  in any context then I guess we are too far apart to ever see eye to eye.  

 

As for the idea of the supernatural, it is by definition non existent, since anything that has an effect on the natural world is by definition natural. 

 

I am an atheist, I see no positive evidence supporting the existence of gods, therefor I have to go with the null hypothesis, there are no gods...  

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I can't find the other section to my document; I'm sorry for that moonman, because maybe it had more of a substantial refutation to what your comments screamed loud and clear.

 

So I'll wing it a bit. It is not difficult for folks to find scripture that is so against the grain in our society. Maybe it all should be. But given what men were created (in my belief) to do and to be, some of these instances that speak of such horror most of us have a hard time accepting.

 

For instance, we in western civilized societies, do not see the justification of a punishment, such as cutting off the hand of a thief, after he has been caught several times stealing. In America it would be considered cruel and unusual punishment. Secretly however, many might think that it is justified. But, when we read things that took place several thousand years ago, where people took their deities very serious, and see their practices, we usually think, 'how arcane; how horrible, etc.

 

In the case of the Hebrews, the "contract" made with GOD at Mt. Horeb, was taken very seriously. In my opinion many of them simply went along to get along and to be fed, and sheltered. But there were a few that took the covenant very serious and tried to follow it to the best of their ability.

 

We think that the punishment for some of the evil practices of some people were overboard, harsh and could never be accepted today. But as you read the Bible, you see very quickly, GOD takes promises very serious. He takes sin very serious. He will not tolerate it, in any form, and He will not let it go unpunished, no matter how much societies or individuals balk the directives or the words. He makes righteous judgments and He doesn't base His judgments on what men may think is right or wrong.

 

I'll say this; if there is no GOD, I've wasted a lot of time in my life. But if there is, and what He has said is right or wrong is not to be challenged, then you and many like you could be standing on the wrong side of the equation.

 

But since you dismiss it all as a myth or worse, it may be much harder for you to look past your own would-be wisdom. I'd ask you to reread what you've read, and look past what you think is horror and accept the fact that GOD punishes those that deserve the punishment.

 

As I believe you must know, there is a way out.

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I can't find the other section to my document; I'm sorry for that moonman, because maybe it had more of a substantial refutation to what your comments screamed loud and clear.

 

So I'll wing it a bit. It is not difficult for folks to find scripture that is so against the grain in our society. Maybe it all should be. But given what men were created (in my belief) to do and to be, some of these instances that speak of such horror most of us have a hard time accepting.

 

For instance, we in western civilized societies, do not see the justification of a punishment, such as cutting off the hand of a thief, after he has been caught several times stealing. In America it would be considered cruel and unusual punishment. Secretly however, many might think that it is justified. But, when we read things that took place several thousand years ago, where people took their deities very serious, and see their practices, we usually think, 'how arcane; how horrible, etc.

 

In the case of the Hebrews, the "contract" made with GOD at Mt. Horeb, was taken very seriously. In my opinion many of them simply went along to get along and to be fed, and sheltered. But there were a few that took the covenant very serious and tried to follow it to the best of their ability.

 

We think that the punishment for some of the evil practices of some people were overboard, harsh and could never be accepted today. But as you read the Bible, you see very quickly, GOD takes promises very serious. He takes sin very serious. He will not tolerate it, in any form, and He will not let it go unpunished, no matter how much societies or individuals balk the directives or the words. He makes righteous judgments and He doesn't base His judgments on what men may think is right or wrong.

 

I'll say this; if there is no GOD, I've wasted a lot of time in my life. But if there is, and what He has said is right or wrong is not to be challenged, then you and many like you could be standing on the wrong side of the equation.

 

But since you dismiss it all as a myth or worse, it may be much harder for you to look past your own would-be wisdom. I'd ask you to reread what you've read, and look past what you think is horror and accept the fact that GOD punishes those that deserve the punishment.

 

As I believe you must know, there is a way out.

 

 

zazz54, you do understand that up until secular governments gelded the christian religion all the things you say it doesn't do now were done, religion had to dragged kicking and screaming into the modern age, the version of christianity you see now is kind and ingratiating because it no longer has the power of life and death over everyone. I think we should start another thread if we wish to continue this, i am pretty sure it is off topic.. 

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