Weightlessness & Greys

[Moontanman]

When you say large, I would guess you are talking only a few pounds. There is a good reason why creatures with an exoskeleton can only get so big as land animals. Even with a high oxygen atmosphere they would still be very limited in the size they could attain. But then nothing says intelligent social species has to be large. But if they could be not so good to eat, maybe they would have the time they need to develop into a technological society.:rolleyes:

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_crab

 

The coconut crab, Birgus latro, is a species of terrestrial hermit crab, also known as the robber crab or palm thief. It is the largest land-living arthropod in the world, and is probably at the upper size limit for terrestrial animals with exoskeletons in recent Earth atmosphere, with a weight of up to 4.1 kg (9.0 lb). it can grow to up to 2m in length from leg to leg. It is found on islands across the Indian Ocean and parts of the Pacific Ocean as far east as the Gambier Islands, mirroring the distribution of the coconut palm; it has been extirpated from most areas with a significant human population, including mainland Australia and Madagascar.

 

What we see today is a lot like mammals of the dinosaur era, dinosaurs suppressed mammal evolution, only small body size was available so mammals were small. If vertebrates had never evolved there is no reason why invertebrates couldn't have evolved more efficient breathing apparatus and larger body size. We really need to think outside the box and stop thinking of invertebrates as sprawling animals, get their legs under them like mammals and dinosaurs and improve their breathing and you could have quite large arthropods. At one time there were rather large insects, spiders and such but reptiles out competed them...

[Aethelwulf]

Oooo... aliens. My favorite subject... It was why I took science as my past time... You know. We are not alone we have always been visited and are most likely... not far from here.

 

Besides... if aliens don't exist, I think we are forgetting what we are :)

[Lancewen]

Oooo... aliens. My favorite subject... It was why I took science as my past time... You know. We are not alone we have always been visited and are most likely... not far from here.

 

Besides... if aliens don't exist, I think we are forgetting what we are :)

 

Earthlings I would think.:rolleyes:

[Aethelwulf]

Earthlings I would think.:rolleyes:

 

 

Missed the memo? If they are alien to us, what are we by definition?

 

You think the universe, the wide vast cosmos is reserved for us, then selfish in your own right sir. But we are all brothers in a universe. We are aliens by definition.

[Lancewen]

Missed the memo? If they are alien to us, what are we by definition?

 

You think the universe, the wide vast cosmos is reserved for us, then selfish in your own right sir. But we are all brothers in a universe. We are aliens by definition.

 

It's a matter of perspective. Any life not born on earth or is not originally from earth born life is alien to us.

[CraigD]

Weightlessness affects fertility - could this reflect their alleged breeding program?

While it’s true that microgravity (weightlessness) appears to cause problems with mammal reproduction, producing pseudogravity is space is within reach of even present-day spaceflight technology, using centrefuges. It seems fantastic and unreasonable that humanoid aliens would not also be able to generate pseudogravity, avoiding a reproductive crisis due to lack of gravity. And, although we have far too little scientific data (essentially just a handful of experiments carried out in spacecraft and clinostats using whole mice and mouse tissue, and medical data from astronauts) to more than speculate, it’s reasonable to imagine that humans who spent many generations living most or all of their lives in microgravity would naturally evolve, or have artificially engineered, reproductive systems that would be able to work without problems in microgravity.

 

Scientifically, we know with high certainty that many people who believe they have been visited by grays were actually experiencing a hypnogogic (near sleep) hallucination. Distortion of familiar shapes, such as the human body, especially thinning and elongation, are common in hypnogogic hallucinations. According to Whitley Strieber’s 1987 cult classic Communion, people have been seeing greys for centuries, even millennia, prior to our 20th+ century awareness of the possibility of spaceflight, believing them to be from remote places on or inside the Earth. This is consistent with the hypothesis that their appearance is due to innate human neuropsychological factors

 

For instance being a water creature, means you would never master fire.

... So while it's obviously impossible for sea creatures to directly take advantage of fire ...

Though the differences between living primarily above or under water are important, I don’t think it follows that an aquatic creature with a human-like penchant for technology would not be able to master ordinary (fuel burning in air) fire. Sufficiently advanced underwater tool-users would, I imagine, be about as good at carrying air in containers underwater as above-water tool-users are at carrying water in containers above water. Believing that underwater tool users couldn’t master making fire because it requires air is similar to believing that above-water tool users couldn’t master making tea because it requires water.

 

I've always believed that dolphins were great proof that "technology" is not necessarily an evolutionary "advantage", at least not in the sense that it's imperative to not just survival but being well positioned at the top of the food chain. Their brains are physically larger than ours, they evidence sophisticated communications and highly complex social interactions making them in those respects, every bit our equals, and perhaps our superiors (they haven't gotten as close to destroying themselves as we have!).

But dolphins are not at the top of the food chain – we (not me or presumably you, but many humans) catch and eat them. We are able to do this entirely because we are more “technological” than they are. A non-tool-using human practically can’t catch a dolphin, while a dolphin can pretty handily catch a human who strays more than about waist-deep in the ocean. Though dolphin species such as bottlenoses have only been observed killing humans defensively, the orca species is know, rarely, to attack humans. Of course, we humans catch and eat orcas, too.

 

Orcas also occasionally attack and eat smaller dolphin species – they’re sometimes wanton killers, not entirely undeserving the reputation of “killer whales”. Like most predators, seem to enjoy killing in cruelly imaginative ways. Dolphins, unlike humans, are obligate carnivores – killing is a necessary behavior for them. I’m far from convinced that a technologically advanced dolphin species would be a less destructive than ours.

 

And while I agree that fire is a key enabler of technological advancement, I'd argue that the key is not fire itself (we use it less and less as technology accelerates) that is important but rather *any* source of power.

I agree. Were an aquatic species to have a human-like aptitude for technology, I can imagine they might be better promoted by their environment than we are to become very technological, because their energy sources might be more easily exploitable than ours. I often wonder if an animal with the intuitive grasp of 3D space of a swimmer might be better suited to math than us humans.

 

Why couldn't cephalopods evolve into land animals? The octopus shape is what I'm on about ...

You might enjoy the speculative fictional Squibbon, from the 2002-2003 “future documentary” The Future Is Wild, MTM.

 

... not that underwater creatures could build star ships...

I suspect you’ve either not read or forgotten the Hugo and Nebula award winning 1983 novel Startide Rising, with its “neofin” dolphin-crewed starship Streaker. Though the ship was actually built by humand, and the neofins were genetically engineered – “uplifted” – by humans, it wouldn’t be a major rewrite to remove those plot elements. PS: one of the long chase scenes in this novel remains the most thrilling thing I’ve ever.

 

Now that I’m throwing out SF references, on the subject of microgravity evolved humans, I’ve gotta throw in Larry Niven’s IMHO underrated and oft overlooked (not only by readers, but by Niven himself, who abandoned the series after one sequil) 1984 novel

(notice the long finders and prehensile toes).

 

IMHO, the world in this novel and its sequil, a breathable “smoke ring” of gas around a neutron star, is one of the most wonderful imagined world in SF, more wonderful than his more popular Ringworld.

[Aethelwulf]

It's a matter of perspective. Any life not born on earth or is not originally from earth born life is alien to us.

 

 

Well, who says we originally come from Earth any way?

 

If we shall get very technical, you could argue that carbon itself never came from a planet in the first place.

[Moontanman]

While it’s true that microgravity (weightlessness) appears to cause problems with mammal reproduction, producing pseudogravity is space is within reach of even present-day spaceflight technology, using centrefuges. It seems fantastic and unreasonable that humanoid aliens would not also be able to generate pseudogravity, avoiding a reproductive crisis due to lack of gravity. And, although we have far too little scientific data (essentially just a handful of experiments carried out in spacecraft and clinostats using whole mice and mouse tissue, and medical data from astronauts) to more than speculate, it’s reasonable to imagine that humans who spent many generations living most or all of their lives in microgravity would naturally evolve, or have artificially engineered, reproductive systems that would be able to work without problems in microgravity.

 

Scientifically, we know with high certainty that many people who believe they have been visited by grays were actually experiencing a hypnogogic (near sleep) hallucination. Distortion of familiar shapes, such as the human body, especially thinning and elongation, are common in hypnogogic hallucinations. According to Whitley Strieber’s 1987 cult classic Communion, people have been seeing greys for centuries, even millennia, prior to our 20th+ century awareness of the possibility of spaceflight, believing them to be from remote places on or inside the Earth. This is consistent with the hypothesis that their appearance is due to innate human neuropsychological factors

 

 

 

Though the differences between living primarily above or under water are important, I don’t think it follows that an aquatic creature with a human-like penchant for technology would not be able to master ordinary (fuel burning in air) fire. Sufficiently advanced underwater tool-users would, I imagine, be about as good at carrying air in containers underwater as above-water tool-users are at carrying water in containers above water. Believing that underwater tool users couldn’t master making fire because it requires air is similar to believing that above-water tool users couldn’t master making tea because it requires water.

 

 

But dolphins are not at the top of the food chain – we (not me or presumably you, but many humans) catch and eat them. We are able to do this entirely because we are more “technological” than they are. A non-tool-using human practically can’t catch a dolphin, while a dolphin can pretty handily catch a human who strays more than about waist-deep in the ocean. Though dolphin species such as bottlenoses have only been observed killing humans defensively, the orca species is know, rarely, to attack humans. Of course, we humans catch and eat orcas, too.

 

Orcas also occasionally attack and eat smaller dolphin species – they’re sometimes wanton killers, not entirely undeserving the reputation of “killer whales”. Like most predators, seem to enjoy killing in cruelly imaginative ways. Dolphins, unlike humans, are obligate carnivores – killing is a necessary behavior for them. I’m far from convinced that a technologically advanced dolphin species would be a less destructive than ours.

 

 

I agree. Were an aquatic species to have a human-like aptitude for technology, I can imagine they might be better promoted by their environment than we are to become very technological, because their energy sources might be more easily exploitable than ours. I often wonder if an animal with the intuitive grasp of 3D space of a swimmer might be better suited to math than us humans.

 

 

You might enjoy the speculative fictional Squibbon, from the 2002-2003 “future documentary” The Future Is Wild, MTM.

 

 

I suspect you’ve either not read or forgotten the Hugo and Nebula award winning 1983 novel Startide Rising, with its “neofin” dolphin-crewed starship Streaker. Though the ship was actually built by humand, and the neofins were genetically engineered – “uplifted” – by humans, it wouldn’t be a major rewrite to remove those plot elements. PS: one of the long chase scenes in this novel remains the most thrilling thing I’ve ever.

 

Now that I’m throwing out SF references, on the subject of microgravity evolved humans, I’ve gotta throw in Larry Niven’s IMHO underrated and oft overlooked (not only by readers, but by Niven himself, who abandoned the series after one sequil) 1984 novel

(notice the long finders and prehensile toes).

 

IMHO, the world in this novel and its sequil, a breathable “smoke ring” of gas around a neutron star, is one of the most wonderful imagined world in SF, more wonderful than his more popular Ringworld.

 

 

I have read Nivens books about the smoke ring, two of his best in my opinion as well. But you have to admit that the dolphins in the uplift series had human help and could not have developed technology without us. I don't see how technology beyond the stone age could be developed under water but I think the idea of humanoid aliens is unlikely especially if they look just like us as many "contactees" say. I have sleep paralysis and I have seen the stick like grey guys a few times, mostly my sleep disorder is perceived as out of body experiences but a couple of times I have seen the little grey guys and manged to grab one once and hold on, when I finally got myself awake i was gripping my own thumbs in my fists... :blink:

 

I still say that we have no reason to expect humanoids or even vertebrates when we encounter aliens, and breeding programs are just silly...

[Moontanman]

Also a spinning torus or sphere could easily be used to simulate gravity colonies shaped thusly would not have to worry about micro gee.

[paigetheoracle]

Who can say what form intelligent life would take or even if it would take any (might be composed of energy or able to manipulate it, to communicate across vast distances it couldn't reasonably travel)? A body would require the ability to manoeuvre reality in some delicate form, in order to create technology (claws might work as might tentacles but so might hands as know them). Outside of this maybe a fluid form or a body composed of energy, that could become solid in parts to work at existence, might be possible. If you're made of energy perhaps you could just think yourself across space as you wouldn't need a space suit to protect yourself from radiation or lack of atmosphere as you wouldn't need to breathe. In such a state perhaps telekinesis would be the normal order of the day.

 

As for The description of the Greys being like something out of a dream - maybe they are. When we are in a state of delirium, the real, solid world appears unreal - perhaps they are only able to access our consciousness in this state? They maybe a figment of our imagination but my point is what if they are not, even hypothetically, what could explain their form and activities? Are they from outer space or inner space? Do they live on another planet or within our own? If they are advanced enough, could they breed with humans by manipulating matter in ways we have yet to discover but still need organic material to do so? (The idea that we know all there is to know, now at this point in time is both ridiculous and self defeating for Man's progress: We don't need barriers to discovery but imagination to go beyond our limits in both time and space or what is all this scientific exploration about? As Eclogite said on another thread, science is about acceptance of how things seem not rigid belief that says there isn't another explanation to be found at a later date).