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Why Didn't God Kill Lucifer ?


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#18 Rade

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:41 PM

God’s intentions for this reality are not necessarily optimal game-play. In fact, part of the problem, I think, is that we are left to guess about her true intentions.

I agree, and notice that one commonly quoted intention was to make humans happy, you know, God created humans to be a good friend on good earth as image of God reality. But, does the decision of God to allow evil and not kill Lucifer in any logical way make humans happy ? Seems to me that very high % of human problems are caused by presence of evil of human inhumanity to each other, not natural causes such as floods, etc. Can we suggest that if God is all knowing, God wills not to use logic to make knowledge decisions ? How many illogical acts taken by God are recorded in the Hebrew bible, does anyone have examples ? I think it likely the decision not to kill Lucifer is one of them, for I cannot logically find any good reason for evil.

#19 Moontanman

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:46 PM

I agree, and notice that one commonly quoted intention was to make humans happy, you know, God created humans to be a good friend on good earth as image of God reality. But, does the decision of God to allow evil and not kill Lucifer in any logical way make humans happy ? Seems to me that very high % of human problems are caused by presence of evil of human inhumanity to each other, not natural causes such as floods, etc. Can we suggest that if God is all knowing, God wills not to use logic to make knowledge decisions ? How many illogical acts taken by God are recorded in the Hebrew bible, does anyone have examples ? I think it likely the decision not to kill Lucifer is one of them, for I cannot logically find any good reason for evil.



Try to write a fictional story with out a bad guy... no one would read it much less pay any attention to it...

#20 Moontanman

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:49 PM

No... Let's not start another thread on Urantia! These forums are designed for our discussions to emulate scientific methods - even our diversions in philosophy. Revelatory-based knowledge is appropriate only elsewhere.



I second this, the Book of Urantia has been totally debunked here so many times it would simply be a matter of directing people to old posts, nothing new here people... move along... of course I guess it's possible someone has a new take on old horse feathers...

#21 Snax

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 01:10 AM

Everyone in this thread seems to be failing to understand that any argument built off a false premise collapses, much like teleporting all the foundation of a house away and watching the house fall twenty feet into a pit.

Paraphrase of the all the arguments thus far:

Why didn't a mythical creature kill another mythical creature? Well one of the fake made-up creatures says the other one is necessary to oppose him despite his omnipotence (another logical fallacy btw), and the opposing mythical creature who is being a bigger man because he hasn't written a book talking **** on the first one (the christian god is an *******) creates a "necessary evil" in order to balance this made-up realm of mythical creatures which used to house a few hundred other mythical entities before humans changed their minds and said it was just the two opposing ones. By why is the balance needed with two fairies? Can't the first one handle **** on its own?

These are all a ridiculous house of questions built on a sinking foundation. Not only is the premise a logical fallacy because god doesn't exist (making the foundation compromised) but it's a logical fallacy after logical fallacy, meaning the house built on the sinking foundation was made from pudding all along. Lucky you, though, it's 102 degrees out as well so at least you get to eat the pudding as it melts.

The only way half of religion's arguments don't sound completely absurd is if you've allowed the ignorance of the religion's preceding arguments to hold up against your better reasoning. Stop allowing this. It is this kind of absurdity that perpetuates religion and other problematic belief systems in human societies. Granted I realize a lot of you are posting for the sake of messing with logic puzzles, but there are people who read this crap and think you highly intelligent people actually believe this stuff, which is the wrong message we should be sending to the skeptics.

Also, I can never manage to post in the morning or mid-day when my brain still works, so I apologize if this post was disjointed, you get the idea nonetheless.

Edited by Snax, 28 May 2013 - 01:13 AM.


#22 Buffy

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 03:41 AM

Not only is the premise a logical fallacy because god doesn't exist (making the foundation compromised) but it's a logical fallacy after logical fallacy, meaning the house built on the sinking foundation was made from pudding all along. ...Not only is the premise a logical fallacy because god doesn't exist...


This is allowed here because it is the "Theology Forum." If you don't like what's posted here, don't read the posts and don't respond to them.

There are many places on the Internet where you can call the majority of the people who say they believe in some deity "idiots."

This is not one of them.

We don't allow proselytizing here either, but religion is in fact a sociological and literary phenomenon, and that's well within the scope of the arts and sciences we do promote here. In a similar vein though, you'll find a very large number of scientifically minded folk have various spiritual beliefs, and insisting on an a priori dictate that "god doesn't exist" is unscientific, as well as being offensive to people who might otherwise agree with you on a wide variety of other topics. We have taken a dim view of anti-religious crusades being carried on here precisely because they are still a form of negative proselytizing ("anybody who believes X is an idiot").

We do support identifying ideas as unscientific on Hypography (which you will see much of in the forums touching on Evolution), but the primary rule of the Theology forum is that by definition the scientific study of religious doctrines, history and literature includes beliefs in gods, prophets and other supernatural (i.e. not scientifically proven) entities, and therefore it is tolerated here.

What is objectionable, what is dangerous, about extremists is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. The evil is not what they say about their cause, but what they say about their opponents, :phones:
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#23 SaxonViolence

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 03:08 PM

Is the Universe Deterministic?

Did the "Big Bang"—or whatever—set a bunch of particles into motion, on trajectories that will never deviate from the laws of motion?

Of course, there are far too many factors to even begin to "Tell the Future"—but not because there are any Metaphysical "Improvisations" possible.

Einstein believed this.

Others believe that there are "Random Number Generators" built into the Universe.

Well, "Random Number Generators" don't make the Universe any less deterministic—they just add in a certain "Throw of The Dice" every so often.

Like switches where a Train has the option of going "Right" or "Left"—but whichever way the coin toss goes, it sets the Train on an Equally Deterministic set of Tracks.

I read an article that said that mankind has yet to make a 100% Random Number Generator.

Certainly, when Dice are tossed they follow a deterministic trajectory to their final resting place—no less deterministic because we can't calculate it beforehand.

But what if we study the Random Number Generator in such depth, that we know ahead of time what Number it will spit forth next?

Well then, it never was truly Random, we say. It was simply highly turbulent and chaotic.

But what about God—any God—An Omniscient Being?

In human logic:

If it is Random, even God can't Know.

If God knows ahead of time, then it wasn't truly Random.


But let us imagine for a moment that God has a means of knowing that transcends our human logical limitations.

God can build a Perfect 100% Random Number Generator AND know with perfect certainty which Numbers will come out.

No, you can't imagine it—but can you imagine what a Basketball would look like if you had eight pairs of eyes, six pairs distributed radially around the basketball, every 60o; one pair looking at the top, and the last pair gazing serenely at the bottom?

No, you can't fully imagine—but one day in the near future, an artificial intelligence hooked up to enough cameras could...

So "Unimaginable" doesn't mean "Inconceivable".

God, in his infinite wisdom, wishes to create an intelligent being with free will.

"Free Will" is another one of those things—like knowing with absolute certainty what is Going to come out of a 100% Random Number Generator—that isn't truly possible with human logic.

You either have something that follows its programming (including the alterations to the original programming that it wrote—using built-in meta-programs)

OR,

You have something that shoots craps occasionally.

Just because it is hard, perhaps impossible to anticipate does not mean that it has "Free-Will".

An Omniscient God can track every single sub-atomic particle through every possible permutation of what "Could have been"—in this and in an infinite number of "Conceivable" Universes—Conceivable to God.

Apparently, when God chooses voluntarily to limit himself sufficiently for "Free Will" to develop, it is a highly complex process.

Knowing how every possible "Might Have Been" would have turned out, God nonetheless chose to put this program online...

For reasons that would be incomprehensible to mere Humans.

Did Adam and Eve have "Free Will" before they were tempted?

The Nascent Capability, but did they have the genuine article?

I don't know.


Saxon Violence

Edited by SaxonViolence, 28 May 2013 - 03:10 PM.


#24 Moontanman

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 10:09 PM

O O O I know I know.... God is Satan, doesn't anyone read the bible?

#25 Moontanman

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 10:09 PM

Old testament anyway...