Aliens And Ufo Discussions

[Aethelwulf]

Ok let us start with my favorite case of all, the 1966 Westall Incident. I've done quite a bit of extensive research on this one particular case - it definately happened, this much I can make out. Even though the Military chased this object, some have speculated that it probably was a Military vehicle, but to make that assertion it did not add up. For instance, the UFO was over well-populated area's. It is in my understanding that when the Military involve top-secret projects, it is usually performed out of the vision of the public eye. The UFO had the audacity to hover over a school, (even one girl got injured somehow and was taken away in some kind of Military ambulance - she was later found by reporters as an adult, here class mates never saw her again) - It is also claimed this UFO actually decended on a field where long grass had been growing, leaving an indentation which in a sense fits the example of a Crop Cirle - I don't have much faith in Crop Circles because I know they can be made over night, however, in this particular case because there was a direct link to an unknown aerial craft, I believe there is some truth behind it. The teachers where urged to stay quiet and if they did not, they would have been open to ridicule... even the children had been prepped by the headmaster telling them not to say anything about the event.

 

There was vital photographs taken which had been handed to the police. An investigator quite recently went to their archives to find container which kept the photograph in. It was empty. Someone, probably a Military Official was covering their tracks. The only record of this event is located in a public archive (meaning any original coverage of the event). The story is well known in Australia. I believe, the Military had been chasing the object for a while. I don't believe it was their technology, as some investigators would like you to believe. I don't believe the evidence fits the bill to make such a speculation.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westall_UFO

Edited July 21, 2012 by Aethelwulf

[Aethelwulf]

In fact, like it goes with many accounts (such as the Pheonix Lights case), why would the officials perform Military tasks in plain view of the public?

 

One thing to keep in mind, that when I say ''displayed an advanced technology'' we don't need to be assuming these objects are going at very high speeds, though, they where dubbed by the Military ''Fast Walkers'' as opposed to ''Slow Walkers'' which are satellites. The very fact that these aircraft do not show any method of propulsion and they are of unconventional aerodynamical shape (saucers) that is quite advanced enough. We have tried making flying saucers.

 

The avrocar VZ-9 was in fact a secret Military experiment to see if they could fly a saucer shaped craft with a simple lift and thrust engine.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_VZ-9_Avrocar

 

Here is a question... why the secret interest in trying to develop a saucer shaped craft? We know the shape is not practical aerodynamically-speaking with our kind of technology. But perhaps... this is what they where trying to find out... exactly how these UFO's are capable of flying the way they do. Back-engineering a UFO no doubt would be like handing a stop watch to some ancient civilization and asking them how it works.

[Aethelwulf]

Of course, one has to keep in mind that this is all a big cover up, and that the truth of the matter be told, these UFO's are simply our technology which had progressively became more advanced over the years. There are still problems with this though, when we know from documented records that UFO's have been known to cascade the sky long before our government even showed a remote interest in disk-like craft.

[Aethelwulf]

Here is how blatant the cover up was... not only did the photographs go missing, but wiki reports:

 

''GTV Channel 9 television also ran a news report about the encounter. A student, Joy Tighe, described the event for the reporter. However, a copy of this film is not available. Channel 9 reports that it was removed from their archive and not returned.''

[Aethelwulf]

And all I can say it this next report:

 

''Broadsheet newspaper, The Age ran a very small article about the Westall incident on 7 April 1966, on page 6:

"Object Perhaps Balloon - An unidentified flying object seen over the Clayton-Moorabbin area yesterday morning might have been a weather balloon. Hundreds of children and a number of teachers at Westall School, Clayton, watched the object during morning break."

 

Is hogwash! Almost laughable. A weather balloon does not require nearly as much Military personel which appeared that day, not to mention, a balloon does not justify the threats the children got and the teachers for stating they saw a disk shaped object.

 

Saying it was a balloon is only done at the expense of ignoring all the witness reports. I am sure people can tell a weather balloon to a flying disk.

[Aethelwulf]

Here is witness testimony... quite incredible.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTqE805dhOE

[SmoothHerring]

I'm wondering why it is relevant to post so much about the attempts to cover the UFO related information? Wouldn't the point of this thread be the UFO's, not the cover up? Why not just concentrate on evidence of their existence, not the evidence of cover-ups?

 

FWIW, I keep an open mind with UFO's and don't dismiss them as a possibility. But I'm not blown away by the scenario that there is real, more advanced technology and other species out there. Aethelwulf, since you are convinced they are real and seem to be well versed with the issue, why do you still think it's so incredible? Aren't you already gotten accustomed to a fact that there are other lifeforms?

 

I mean, if you were the alien, and you would meet less advanced civilizations, would you like them to be breathless when you show them a vacuum cleaner, or would you like to get to know each others way of life in a spirit of mutual respect of meeting an unknown culture? Don't you think they have the same kind of consciousness as you have?

Edited July 21, 2012 by SmoothHerring

[Aethelwulf]

I'm wondering why it is relevant to post so much about the attempts to cover the UFO related information? Wouldn't the point of this thread be the UFO's, not the cover up? Why not just concentrate on evidence of their existence, not the evidence of cover-ups?

 

FWIW, I keep an open mind with UFO's and don't dismiss them as a possibility. But I'm not blown away by the scenario that there is real, more advanced technology and other species out there. Aethelwulf, since you are convinced they are real and seem to be well versed with the issue, why do you still think it's so incredible? Aren't you already gotten accustomed to a fact that there are other lifeforms?

 

I mean, if you were the alien, and you would meet less advanced civilizations, would you like them to be breathless when you show them a vacuum cleaner, or would you like to get to know each others way of life in a spirit of mutual respect of meeting an unknown culture? Don't you think they have the same kind of consciousness as you have?

 

 

It's because the cover-up nature of these events are the most important evidence about these cases - the reason why is because you don't cover something up unless there is something to hide.

 

As for gotten accustomed to these things, I don't think I ever will.

 

I witnessed my own UFO's when I was much younger - my family saw them as well and so did several families in my vicinity. The police where notified and a report when to the MoD. Nothing was ever heard about it since... I was... quite aware what I had seen could only be described as supernatural. So even to this day, nothing ceases to fascinate me... maybe... until the day I actually see an alien face to face, the sheer wonder of the phenomenon will lay to rest. That is of course, if the alien hypothesis is the correct solution.

[Aethelwulf]

In a sense, my own sighting was the catalyst which led me to investigate science to the best of my ability, because I knew what I had seen that day did not fit any kind of aerodynamical object I might have seen on TV or the cinema. To this day, what I saw still fits no description of any technology we have... or led to believe we have.

[SmoothHerring]

It's because the cover-up nature of these events are the most important evidence about these cases - the reason why is because you don't cover something up unless there is something to hide.

 

As for gotten accustomed to these things, I don't think I ever will.

 

I witnessed my own UFO's when I was much younger - my family saw them as well and so did several families in my vicinity. The police where notified and a report when to the MoD. Nothing was ever heard about it since... I was... quite aware what I had seen could only be described as supernatural. So even to this day, nothing ceases to fascinate me... maybe... until the day I actually see an alien face to face, the sheer wonder of the phenomenon will lay to rest. That is of course, if the alien hypothesis is the correct solution.

 

Yeah, in that sense the cover up aspect is relevant.

 

But still... supernatural? They are not breaking the laws of physics, so it is only more advanced. The bottom line I have is that, in addition to the technology, I would be intrigued about how they go about their lives, what do they think about the age old philosophical questions. Do they have a culture, or have they gotten beyond it into some kind of ultra-individualism, where everyone ponders and meditates about the meaning of existence for themselves? In essence, what is the imperfect aspect about them like.

 

For me, the only reason of being constantly excited about them would be if one was not sure if they exist, and would regularly play with the idea of meeting with them face to face. Your posts give the impression that you are sure that they exist. But since you have not met any face to face, you can't be completely sure, you can only tell yourself there is no other possibility with the evidence, but you can't 'realize' it to be true and be affirmed.

 

What I think is that if the contact is to happen, we are as alien to them as they are to us. If they are truly further evolved than us, they won't reduce all of us to where we are going at as species. Every culture have exceptional people that can see things outside of the context of their culture.

[SmoothHerring]

In a sense, my own sighting was the catalyst which led me to investigate science to the best of my ability, because I knew what I had seen that day did not fit any kind of aerodynamical object I might have seen on TV or the cinema. To this day, what I saw still fits no description of any technology we have... or led to believe we have.

 

I can sympathize with this. If you mind googling ayahuasca, you will find out it's an old indian medicine which allows one to seemingly travel to other, higher dimensions of existence, which are often very alien, and many reports include communication with extraterrestials. When I experienced it for the first time, I just knew it's profound and real. It's what one would think happens when you die, a world where time is always now and everything is interrelated.

 

Not to get too far offtopic, I know what it's like to have an experience with an other. The thing is, though, if it really is the ultimate reality, then everybody already exists there, only there is a thick layer of cognition and psychological time etc. over it. The question is(for me at least), why would you want to try to rip "the veil" off, if you're sure you are right? If not, then go on speculating from an impartial standpoint of not-knowing.

Edited July 21, 2012 by SmoothHerring

[Aethelwulf]

Yeah, in that sense the cover up aspect is relevant.

 

But still... supernatural? They are not breaking the laws of physics, so it is only more advanced. The bottom line I have is that, in addition to the technology, I would be intrigued about how they go about their lives, what do they think about the age old philosophical questions. Do they have a culture, or have they gotten beyond it into some kind of ultra-individualism, where everyone ponders and meditates about the meaning of existence for themselves? In essence, what is the imperfect aspect about them like.

 

For me, the only reason of being constantly excited about them would be if one was not sure if they exist, and would regularly play with the idea of meeting with them face to face. Your posts give the impression that you are sure that they exist. But since you have not met any face to face, you can't be completely sure, you can only tell yourself there is no other possibility with the evidence, but you can't 'realize' it to be true and be affirmed.

 

What I think is that if the contact is to happen, we are as alien to them as they are to us. If they are truly further evolved than us, they won't reduce all of us to where we are going at as species. Every culture have exceptional people that can see things outside of the context of their culture.

 

 

I'll rephrase it, ''they seemed supernatural.''

 

Certainly, whatever these objects are, they are still subject to the laws of physics. Now to the bolded part, I certainly believe they exist, but because of the highly secretive unknown origin surrounding them, I get just as excited with any new material. I am very easily pleased :)

 

I can honestly say though, if they are aliens, there is no doubt in my mind they are more evolved than us and would be superior in intellect.

[Moontanman]

Ok, it's obvious I am going to have to assume the role of skeptic here. Smootherring, you are off topic with the astral plane stuff, this is about UFOs, the official definition of UFO is not just lights in the sky, in the military it means something that cannot be identifed even though it has been clearly seen

 

The United States Air Force, which coined the term in 1952, initially defined UFOs as those objects that remain unidentified after scrutiny by expert investigators,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object

 

In any case i think we need to define what we are talking about before we continue.

 

I suggest this if for no other reason than to simply the debate.

 

Nuts and bots space craft from an alien civilization... Can we agree on that for now?

 

If someone wants to go another direction feel free to start another thread.

[Moontanman]

Before we go forward I would like to address one of the main reasons skeptics say UFOs cannot be anything more than false...

 

Interstellar distances, Aethelwulf, you would seem to be in a unique position to critique this idea, can you lend us some insight ont eh problems of interstellar travel... in other words how can we get them here from there in a reasonable life time?

 

Can the FTL barrier be broken? Side stepped?

[Aethelwulf]

Before we go forward I would like to address one of the main reasons skeptics say UFOs cannot be anything more than false...

 

Interstellar distances, Aethelwulf, you would seem to be in a unique position to critique this idea, can you lend us some insight ont eh problems of interstellar travel... in other words how can we get them here from there in a reasonable life time?

 

Can the FTL barrier be broken? Side stepped?

 

 

There are in fact a number of different ways interstellar travel could be achieved.

 

It's not so much that interstellar travel will be really fast, some methods may still take a civilization quite a few years... it just wouldn't be mind-blowingly long. For instance, an antimatter powered propulsion system would take 9 years to get to Alpha Centauri. This isn't science fiction it is science fact.

 

We could actually expect a number of things concerning aliens... It is likely they traveled here on a mother ship. It is arguable that a group of smaller ships would not have the energy requirements to travel very large distances, but mind you that would be speculation since it is unclear what their method of transportation is including what their energy source is exactly. It is probably also likely the smaller ships we see on Earth, the classical UFO's moving at tremendous speeds and cutting 90 degree corners, are unmanned. It seems unlikely that anything biological could withstand the inertial effects from what is observed in these objects. So... it is most likely they are probes.

 

Anyway, there is also a more primative method to get to Alpha Centauri, called Solar Sails. Basically, radiation packs a punch when it hits objects due to photons possessing momentum. You can actually push object therefore using only just photon radiation. In a similar idea, it has been conjectured that maybe we can use this force to travel large distances without us costing a single penny towards fuel expenses. It would take a bit longer to get to Alpha Centauri using this method. I don't have an exact figure though.

 

Another method uses the science of planets and also take into account inflation.

 

Hawking mentions in his book, ''A Brief History of Time'' that the inflationary phase of our universe left certain parts of the universe expanding at different rates. The result of this would be that planets and entire star systems are left moving at different rates relative to us. Some are probably moving at relativistic speeds. Now, there is what is called ''The Slingshot Effect'' or as it is known more commonly in physics as the ''Gravitational Assistance Effect.'' You can have a probe move towards a planet and use the gravitational attraction of the planets to have the probe curve round and leave at twice the speed the planet is moving at. In this case, I have questioned, is it possible a civilization could use relativistically moving celestial objects to shoot away at tremendous speeds? It is possible.

 

Then there is the pista resistance. In Einstein's equations, we know that the vacuum is in fact a dynamical sheet. It can be warped and manipulated, which brings us to the next theoretical idea, the Alcubierre Drive. Using this special drive, you can cut very large distances, almost instantly. In fact, you would be able traverse distances faster than the speed of light without ever breaking the laws of physics. I could get to Alpha Centauri in little less than a second if I was able to use this machine. You know, maybe alien craft do similar things. I have heard numerous reports from different case sightings which may suppose that some kind of warping device is around the machines. There is a slight problem involving tachyonic matter or some kind of exotic matter ... let me explain from wiki:

 

''Yet another problem is that, according to Serguei Krasnikov,[5] it would be impossible to generate the bubble without being able to force the exotic matter to move at locally FTL speeds, which would require the existence of tachyons. Some methods have been suggested which would avoid the problem of tachyonic motion, but would probably generate a naked singularity at the front of the bubble''

 

This maybe so, however, there may be other solutions. We certainly don't know everything there is about relativity, all we have is to work from the equations as best we know them. I'd say strongly to keep an open mind that there could be more valid solutions to this type of drive. We should also expect, that perhaps the aliens use none of these solutions. It is not utterly inconceivable to think that if aliens existed and reached us, that they are in fact... thousands upon thousands of years more advanced than us. Who knows... if their star was sufficiently large enough, we could be talking even greater periods of evolution. Which would mean the types of methods we consider in theoretical physics today to move from A to B, would be... primitive if not... laughable in their eyes.

[Moontanman]

I would like to add another possibility, Aliens are already here, have been for thousands if not millions of year living in rotating torus type colonies among the Ort Cloud or Keiper belt... It could very well be that using slow boats that the ort clouds of nearly all stars are inhabited. These aliens probably had adapted to as low a gravity as possible for ease of building and maintaining artificial gravity in their colonies. These aliens would have ho use for planets except as a source of rare metals like gold, silver, and copper.

 

Any way you have three scenarios,

 

#1. FTL,

 

#2. Huge mother-ships going from star to star as explorers

 

#3. They are already here, traveling by slow boats, possibly multiple species inhabiting the ORT clouds of most stars.

 

#2 and #3 could be the same thing in the long haul. Colony torus' could be converted into mother-ships and take the slow road to another stars halo.

 

It's also possible we have #1 and #2 combined as well.

[Moontanman]

Lets start out with the Tehran sighting I posted a link to in post 14 of this thread.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Tehran_UFO_incident

 

http://aboutalien.com/2011/07/tehran-ufo-incident-1976-the-dogfight/