peacegirl Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 That's cool. Put me where you must. ;) I cannot go any faster than I am going. I am not dragging my feet at all. It is very difficult to explain a new discovery as quickly as you would like but if you stick with me, we'll get there. It's completely up to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumab Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 Where are you starting? Declarations that free will is a myth have been made many times, in fact you'll find many who agree with you (although I'm not one of them, pray continue in a more concise fashion). So, free will is an illusion. Now what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 The author's name is Seymour Lessans. He passed away in 1991 at the age of 72. He tried for many years to get his work investigated but to no avail. Unfortunately, there was no internet and he had very little access to the people who might have been able to understand what he had uncovered. Fourteen years after his death, I compiled 6 of his books. I am waiting for the proof as we speak although I am limited in marketing funds. Hopefully, the book will spread by word of mouth as those who understand it will recognize its authenticity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 bumab, then the starting place is letting me explain why will is not free. Many people have incursions of thought that free will is an illusion but they have not been able to explain why or the implications of this knowledge. That is where the starting point begins as far as my contribution to the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 bumab, then the starting place is letting me explain why will is not free. Many people have incursions of thought that free will is an illusion but they have not been able to explain why or the implications of this knowledge. That is where the starting point begins as far as my contribution to the discussion.Talking about the intent to get around to explaining something is not actually getting around to explaining something. If you have a claim to make then make it and let's debate. Posting one message after another saying that you have some claim to make while you dilly dally around about actually making it is a waste of evryone's time to return to this thread only to see that you're still dragging your feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 Clay, I would have explained why man's will is not free yesterday, but I got posts that argued with me and caused me to answer them. Please don't blame me for that. If I get people questioning me or telling me I don't have something of value (because of whatever reason they use to determine this), then I am obliged to answer them which prevents me from getting on with the purpose of my being here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 Do you have a chatroom by any chance? I agree that posting is very very slow and tedious and makes people upset because they can't get answers as quickly as they want them. I would be willing to chat with anyone if they desire this, but I would like to do this in a public chatroom because it takes a lot of effort to explain what I need to explain and the more people that hear it will requires me to do less work by having to repeat myself over and over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 Do you have a chatroom by any chance? I agree that posting is very very slow and tedious and makes people upset because they can't get answers as quickly as they want them. I would be willing to chat with anyone if they desire this, but I would like to do this in a public chatroom because it takes a lot of effort to explain what I need to explain and the more people that hear it will requires me to do less work by having to repeat myself over and over again.No, this is a bulletin board. It need not be slow if the members say what they have to say instead of posting over and over to say that they have something to say. If the member just posts whatever their claim is then no one has to wait, it's there for them to read at their leisure. If you post it once then everyone will hear it as soon as they want, it will be here for them to read at their leisure. Here's an example of someone that gets the idea. Mac had a claim to make and the meat of it is posted to start the discussion. Now if you've got something to say, say it. If not, say so and we'll close the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 If you don't want me to be here Clay, I will leave. Please don't tell me you will close the thread. It sounds like a threat. Do what you feel you need to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 If you don't want me to be here Clay, I will leave. Please don't tell me you will close the thread. It sounds like a threat. Do what you feel you need to do.It's not that we don't want you here. We want to discuss and debate. We don't want somebody wasting our time telling us over and over and over that they have something to say, yet never say it. Now, if you have some claim get to it, right now you're just wasing everyone's time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 It's not that we don't want you here. We want to discuss and debate. We don't want somebody wasting our time telling us over and over and over that they have something to say, yet never say it. Now, if you have some claim get to it, right now you're just wasing everyone's time. Clay, please don't put this on me. I said this before and I'll say it again; I would have explained why man's will is not free but I got a lot of immediate slack. I needed to answer people which prevented me from continuing. Why is this so hard to understand? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 Clay, please don't put this on me. I said this before and I'll say it again; I would have explained why man's will is not free but I got a lot of immediate slack. I needed to answer people which prevented me from continuing. Why is this so hard to understand? ;)Then your next post needs to be about why man's will is not free and not another post about why you can't post. End of warning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 I'm not sure if this is going to work but I will start and see what happens. If I get relevant questions, great. If I get curious responses, fantastic. But if I get mean remarks just because people don't like my proof, even though it's undeniable, then there will no reason for me to stay. Some people have their own personal biases and they cannot put them aside to even hear what I am saying. I am not saying that this is anyone in here, but if it turns out this way, I don't have the time to defend myself against those who are determined to be right just for the sake of being right. Only the truth is the judge and jury of what is right, not someone's personal opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 The dictionary states that free will is 'The power of self-determination regarded as a special faculty of choosing good and evil without compulsion or necessity.' But this is only part of the definition since it is implied that a man can be held responsible, blamed and punished for doing what is considered wrong or evil since it is believed he could have chosen otherwise. In other words, it is believed that man has the ability to do other than he does, if he wants to, and therefore can be held responsible for doing what he is not supposed to do. These very words reveal the fallacy of this belief to those who have mathematical perception: Man is held responsible not for doing what he desires to do or considers right, better or good for himself under his particular set of circumstances, but for doing what others judge to be wrong or evil, and they feel absolutely certain he could have acted otherwise had he wanted to. Isn't this the theme of free will? But take note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 Supposing the alternative judged right for him by others is not desired by himself because of conditions known only to him, what then? Does this make his will free? It is obvious that a great part of our lives offers no choice; consequently, this is not my consideration. For example, free will does not hold any person responsible for what he does in an unconscious state like hypnosis, nor does it believe that man can be blamed for being born, growing, sleeping, eating, defecating, urinating, etc; therefore, it is unnecessary to prove that these actions, which come under the normal compulsion of living, are beyond control. Supposing a father is desperately in need of work to feed his family but cannot find a job. Let us assume he is living in the United States and for various reasons doesn't come under the consideration of unemployment compensation or relief and can't get any more credit for food, clothing, shelter, etc., what is he suppossed to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 If he steals a loaf of bread to feed his family the law can easily punish hiim by saying he didn't have to steal if he didn't want to, which is perfectly true. Others might say stealing is evil, that he could have chosen an option which was good; in this case almost any other alternative would have sufficed. But supposing this individual preferred stealing because he considered this act good for himself in comparison to the evil of asking for charity or further credit because it appeared to hiim, at that moment, that this was the better choice of the three that were available to him - so does this make his will free? It is obvious that he did not hav eto steal if he didn't want to, but he wanted to, and it is also obvious that those in law enforcement did not have to punish him if they didn't want to, but both sides wanted to do what they did under the circumstances. In reality, we are carried along on the wings of time or life during every moment of our existence and have no say in this matter whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacegirl Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 We cannot stop ourselves from being born and are compelled to either live out our lives the best we can, or commit suicide. Is it possible to disagree with this? However, to prove that what we do of our own free will, of our own desire because we want to do it, is also beyond control, it is necessary to employ mathematical (undeniable) reasoning. Therefore, since it is absolutely impossible for man to be both dead and alive at the same time, and since it is absolutely impossible for a person to desire committing suicide unless dissatisfied with life (regardless of the reason), we are given the ability to demonstrate a revealing and undeniable relation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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