Aethelwulf Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 Sorry, That last post was incomplete: ''I don't know how you can justify a time interval existing between two points'' Then I should have said ''with each point existing outside of time.'' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 The question is how time is even fundamental when we only understand time as a geometric property? The universe, when big bang happened (and is still happening) arose from a situation where there was no geometry to even comprehend. So how can time be a fundamental property of the vacuum? It is my contention that time allows geometry, geometry does not allow time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwulf Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 How can time precede itself? Think about what time is in our current relativistic models - it is the geometry of the vacuum, along with space itself. Saying time brings about geometry is not very meaningful - it is like saying a feather brings about a duckling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 How can time precede itself? Think about what time is in our current relativistic models - it is the geometry of the vacuum, along with space itself. Saying time brings about geometry is not very meaningful - it is like saying a feather brings about a duckling. I will have to go with your expertise on this, it's always just felt backwards to me to say that somehow anything other than time is fundamental to existence... Unless you have time you don't have anything else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawcat Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Interesting but I'll be long gone by that time, save for the fact i'm made of elementary particles, and will truly be free at the end of spacetime. How did we end up with the "end of time" topic? I don't think that the links suggest end of time, rather the end of universe as we observe it now. As far as the suggestion that time is a geometric property, nothing in physics is just geometric. Geometry is a tool, but we are dealing with obesrved phenomena--you know, length, speed, that kinda stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwulf Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 And yet... what is time, but merely a tool we use to book-keep events in a particular order of understanding? Time is like our minds way to keep us from insanity - outside of the mind, nature does not care about such an understanding, nature doesn't care whether there is a particular book-keeping of events, it is just our awareness which scrutanizes the world in such a way. In a sense, consciousness is time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pincho Paxton Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 I would suggest that time can be thought of as an arrow with two points (< and >) such as: A<---^---time interval---*--->B In this example, the ^ = antimatter and the * = matter, and A & B are two moments that are outside of time the time interval A <---> B. Following the suggestion of Feynman, antimatter can the thought to move in the opposite direction of matter, call them backward B ---> A and forward A ---> B if you wish. Any phenomenon without mass is 100% within a moment, exists forever, and thus outside of any time interval, for example the photon. Comments welcome. I just think that the decimal counting system creates these lines, and in reality they don't exist. It's like Newton's 3rd law... every action has an equal, and opposite reaction. Well decimal counting doesn't cover the opposite reactions to time. The decimal counting system is linear... -3,-2,-1, 0, 1, 2, 3 The decimal counting system has ENDS. Zero is in the middle, but you need a -0 to complete the loop, or just remove zero completely. What you need in my example is that 3, and -3 are joined together just like 1 and -1. You create a ring counting system. You need to think that 3 is next to -3. In decimal it is hard to imagine 3 next to -3. The universe however has energy inside membranes made from the bending of spacetime. This sphere of physics is always looped. So 3 is next to -3, or 6 is next to -6. This completes Newton's 3rd law, and this means that time has no arrow. It has no ends, and is completely looped. The best way to picture time is as a rainbow, and time is green. So the rainbow colours are either side of time. Your counting system needs to be either side of time with time in the middle. The negative colours are red, and the positive colours are blue. Life requires a lot of green, therefore Earth is green, and time is in the middle, and DNA is the collapse between the two states of positive, and negative. The collapse creates a storage system, a sort of see-saw. Life out, death in, and evolution stored in holes. The holes are a pressure release like a hose pipe, and the shapes are the pressure that is stored in the green zone of holes. 12 holes per time release which create hexagons, sphere, and star shapes. Life shapes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaurieAG Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 The arrow of time is like being able to draw a line from some distant past event in our universes history with an arrow pointing to the current present moment - there is no past in physics, there is certainly no future in physics and most important of all, time is not linear - time is not an arrow which you can draw from one past distant event and linearly connect it to another event. So a beam of photons emitted from a rotating source and travelling towards an observer over time doesn't indicate a time direction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pincho Paxton Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) So a beam of photons emitted from a rotating source and travelling towards an observer over time doesn't indicate a time direction? It doesn't indicate a direction when you remove decimal from it. X/Y/Z stored as decimal have linear locality. X1,Y1,Z50, but in reality X/Y/Z are contained in loops with time as an origin. It's more complicated, and hard for a human to cope with, and is best programmed into a computer. As the photon moves it travels from hole to hole, and each hole is an origin of zero. So no matter how far the photon moves, it is still at origin zero. It's the human sensory system that identifies a change in energy levels, and so stores locations of varying energy states. If a human called all locations the origin zero there would be no way to store the change in energy states. "I was at origin zero I saw a tree!""I was at origin zero I saw a mountain!""I rode my bike from origin zero to origin zero!" All locations are looped, but the energy trapped in those loops is not constant. So we invented a way to locate that energy, and visualise a change, and store that change as X/Y/Z. The universe however does something like -3, -2, -1, 1 ,2 ,3, -3, -2, -1, 1, 2, 3 And the gap between -3, and 3 is smooth like 1, -1, and isn't a step. Nobody uses the particle directional system. How does a particle know that it has bumped another particle? How does velocity get stored? How does direction get stored? How does energy have direction? It's all in the bending of Spacetime, and the bow shock. Spacetime bends particles into dimples. The direction of movement is bent into a bow shock trough. The trough is direction of movement. The length of the trough is velocity. X/Y/Z are not required, just a local trough. A blocked trough would be energy, and a particle moves around the energy through the nearest trough. A photon moves between 12 troughs right into the middle which is origin zero. I mean that's what I programmed into my computer, and it works. I took everything out of the computer like decimal, and vectors, and replaced it all with Knotted rings, and a grain stacking system. I try to program the universe how the universe really works. I try to avoid maths, and use locality of particles, and energy. From that you view each Galaxy as a new Origin Zero, and the origin is a hole, and from that hole comes the energy to create that Galaxy, and each particle has it's own energy hole the nucleus. So you have multiple origins. Each nucleus inflates the particle, and each membrane (bending of spacetime) is the end of that origin. It takes a long time to think equal to the Universe. Edited August 10, 2012 by Pincho Paxton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwulf Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 So a beam of photons emitted from a rotating source and travelling towards an observer over time doesn't indicate a time direction? ''There is no time, only change.'' Julian Barbour I want you to try and understand, that a system of entropy is not something which should induce a theory of ''time.'' Time is something we all come to experience, something which also has a biological answer. Time is not something the world, the inanimate world is concerned about. A photon does not move, nor does a beam, experiencing a sense of time pass - particles which don't have minds to care whether such things like a past or future could even exist, could even care that time in totality even exists. Time is not an ''outside'' world thing. Time is something we subjectively agree on. Time is a subjective phenomenon. Time is nothing but a subjective collective of agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaurieAG Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Time is not an ''outside'' world thing. Time is something we subjectively agree on. Time is a subjective phenomenon. Time is nothing but a subjective collective of agreement.This definition of 'space time' only applies if you have to multiply the units you describe as 'time' by the imaginary unit i to convert it to its euclidian space equivalent. All and every construct based on imaginary time is subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwulf Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 This definition of 'space time' only applies if you have to multiply the units you describe as 'time' by the imaginary unit i to convert it to its euclidian space equivalent. All and every construct based on imaginary time is subjective. Thinking of the definition of ''spacetime'' it is a geometrical feature of the vacuum. An arrow of time implies a linear directionality which according to our current theories, does not make sense. In the words of Doctor Who ''Time is more of a wobbly structure.'' This is true, insomuch that time is not something which has a linear arrow, time is everywhere where geometry is included. Entropy is a well-established concept, but trying to justify an arrow of time from it is meaningless also because time does not exist. You speak of time being subjective, there is no kind of time except for subjective time. An objective time, a feature of the world doesn't exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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