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On The Origin Of Life


sigurdV

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No! Im now searching but no one seems interested in the conditions in the solar cloud and how the organics in there were produced!

 

 

From Wikipedia:

"An alternative to Earthly abiogenesis is the hypothesis that primitive life may have originally formed extraterrestrially,

 

(Here Francis Crick is removed from the text. There should be one to be the first to mention the possibility of "Extra Terrestial Origin of Life", but im beginning to suspect that no one has hinted at the Solar Cloud as the origin of life... Not every Sun has planets ,but every sun was created out of a cloud!!! now to the rest of the quote:)

 

Organic compounds are relatively common in space, especially in the outer solar system where volatiles are not evaporated by solar heating.Comets are encrusted by outer layers of dark material, thought to be a tar-like substance composed of complex organic material formed from simple carbon compounds after reactions initiated mostly by irradiation by ultraviolet light. It is supposed that a rain of material from comets could have brought significant quantities of such complex organic molecules to Earth."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin "Primitive" extraterrestrial life

 

We have found organics in space, are they somehow "spitted out" from planets,

or are there spots in space where the building blocks of life (and who knows what else)

are produced?

 

What were the conditions in the cloud that later became our solar system?

Surely the organics came from there somehow?

 

Why would the "organics" as you call them not have come from Earth? Organic molecules in space seem to indicate these molecules are easily produced, I think the idea is that UV radiation provides the necessary energy, the raw chemicals are already there from super nova explosions, there are processes on the earth that can produce these molecules in far more concentrated form. (please see the short film I suggested earlier in this thread) To say they originated in space adds a layer of complexity to the problem for no apparent reason...

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Why would the "organics" as you call them not have come from Earth? Organic molecules in space seem to indicate these molecules are easily produced, I think the idea is that UV radiation provides the necessary energy, the raw chemicals are already there from super nova explosions, there are processes on the earth that can produce these molecules in far more concentrated form. (please see the short film I suggested earlier in this thread) To say they originated in space adds a layer of complexity to the problem for no apparent reason...

 

Im pretty sure comets dont have an earthly origin...If I understand it right we find chemicals all over the Oort cloud, how did they get there from Earth?

 

I cant believe you suggest that! We must somehow misunderstand each other! Do you think i meant that it was the chemicals and not life itself that was transported to Earth?

 

My idea is that life had time and space enough to evolve from chemicals in the cloud, and life seeded Earth when chemical conditions allowed it to survive here. Thats why life on Earth and the beginning of Earth are so closely related in time.

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Im pretty sure comets dont have an earthly origin...If I understand it right we find chemicals all over the Oort cloud, how did they get there from Earth?

 

No one is suggesting they got there from earth....

 

I cant believe you suggest that! We must somehow misunderstand each other! Do you think i meant that it was the chemicals and not life itself that was transported to Earth?

 

Well the idea that life it's self was transported to earth after forming in space has very little to back it up. As far as I know no one has suggested that life forms in space...

 

My idea is that life had time and space enough to evolve from chemicals in the cloud, and life seeded Earth when chemical conditions allowed it to survive here.

 

Again, the idea that life might have originated in space has very little if any support, there is no mechanism to allow that to happen, no fluid to allow chemical evolution past some complex molecules. The vacuum of space is not conductive to the formation of life forms, if you are asserting this you need to provide some evidence it could happen...

 

Thats why life on Earth and the beginning of Earth are so closely related in time.

 

I see absolutely nothing to suggest this is true, it's more likely that life forms easily and quickly and as soon as conditions allowed it, when life could come into being it did, no reason to assert it formed in the vacuum of space and then came to earth...

Edited by Moontanman
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No one is suggesting they got there from earth....

 

 

 

Well the idea that life it's self was transported to earth after forming in space has very little to back it up. As far as I know no one has suggested that life forms in space...

 

 

Again, the idea that life might have originated in space has very little if any support, there is no mechanism to allow that to happen, no fluid to allow chemical evolution past some complex molecules. The vacuum of space is not conductive to the formation of life forms, if you are asserting this you need to provide some evidence it could happen...

 

 

 

I see absolutely nothing to suggest this is true, it's more likely that life forms easily and quickly and as soon as conditions allowed it, when life could come into being it did, no reason to assert it formed in the vacuum of space and then came to earth...

It does not matter to the argument who is the first to state it:

 

I agree with you on one point:"life forms easily and quickly and as soon as conditions allow"

 

But otherwise I think you are caught in a medieval thinking pattern:

Since there is life on earth it must have its origin here!

 

Or is your argument stronger than that?

 

When the interstellar cloud to become our solar system was formed,

it contained everything needed for life. Your objection is that life to arise needs liquid water, energy and organics...

 

The energy was there in the form of lightning so the frozen water gets covered with organics.

 

We are talking a long time here...But eventually the center of the contracting cloud has a temperature above freezing point. From now on the temperature of the cloud will rise...

Im not sure of the tempo but I imagine heat flows to all cold places long before the sun and the planets are formed ...

 

THERE IS A LONG PERIOD WHEN A GIGANTIC (compared to earth) VOLUME IN SPACE CONTAINING LIQUID WATER CONTAINING ORGANICS IS EXPOSED TO LIGHTNING, AND LIFE WILL FORM THERE!

You make the mistake of believing that space have always been as it is today!

Edited by sigurdV
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Do you have a source for this? I have never seen anyone claim this before.

 

No!

 

I think all the details in the theory on how solar systems develop out of primordeal clouds are yet not there!

 

So as usual I had to do some thinking of my own.

 

But doesnt thermodynamics claim that heat is transported towards cold places?

 

In this case I assume the heat from the proto sun gets distributed throughout the cloud.

 

And that the time, volume and conditions suffice for life to arise.

 

I dont know where and how to check my assumptions...

 

Should I then hide my thoughts until somebody else with a better reputation asks the same question? :angry:

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Hi sigurdV,

 

As to your post #16 -- ???

 

maddog

 

Yes...ha ha ...I agree!

 

But even when im at my worst its not insanities...its sort of thinking privately not giving a damn whether any reader

(including also me if I wait too long to return) can follow the thinking or not.

 

The finger at Poincare? Well he says since all things are finite and time is endless then any situation occurs infinitely many times...

 

Such large scale theories I always find faults in...

 

My idea on large scale theories can be summed up in the theory that life will consume the universe long before the times and situations envisioned by the grand theory is arrived at :)

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No!

 

I think all the details in the theory on how solar systems develop out of primordeal clouds are yet not there!

 

So as usual I had to do some thinking of my own.

 

But doesnt thermodynamics claim that heat is transported towards cold places?

 

In this case I assume the heat from the proto sun gets distributed throughout the cloud.

 

And that the time, volume and conditions suffice for life to arise.

 

I dont know where and how to check my assumptions...

 

Should I then hide my thoughts until somebody else with a better reputation asks the same question? :angry:

 

 

sigurdV, you are making a positive assertion, it's up to you to provide some sort of evidence to back up that assertion. The vacuum of space, and yes the clouds in space are a good vacuum, cannot support liquid water or any other fluid. for life to form it has to have a working fluid, water, ammonia, liquid hydrocarbons, sulfuric acid, but it has to be a liquid.

 

Liquids to not form in a vacuum and yes the clouds you talk about are very good vacuum. Then there is the problem of temperature, the clouds you refer to are close to absolute zero, any and all things are either a diffuse gas or frozen particles. Life requires a liquid of some sort and planetary surfaces are the only way to get fluids due to the atmospheric pressure.

 

I it a also true that the organic molecules found in these clouds are so diffuse any reactions that could happen in minutes on the earth would take a huge amount of time in molecular clouds and the organics found are an extreme far cry from life.

 

You made this assertion, you need to back it up with evidence, so far you have provided none.

Edited by Moontanman
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It does not matter to the argument who is the first to state it:

 

I agree with you on one point:"life forms easily and quickly and as soon as conditions allow"

 

But otherwise I think you are caught in a medieval thinking pattern:

Since there is life on earth it must have its origin here!

 

Or is your argument stronger than that?

 

When the interstellar cloud to become our solar system was formed,

it contained everything needed for life. Your objection is that life to arise needs liquid water, energy and organics...

 

The energy was there in the form of lightning so the frozen water gets covered with organics.

 

We are talking a long time here...But eventually the center of the contracting cloud has a temperature above freezing point. From now on the temperature of the cloud will rise...

Im not sure of the tempo but I imagine heat flows to all cold places long before the sun and the planets are formed ...

 

THERE IS A LONG PERIOD WHEN A GIGANTIC (compared to earth) VOLUME IN SPACE CONTAINING LIQUID WATER CONTAINING ORGANICS IS EXPOSED TO LIGHTNING, AND LIFE WILL FORM THERE!

You make the mistake of believing that space have always been as it is today!

 

 

No, the clouds you are talking about do not support liquid water (they are still a good approximation of a vacuum and water can exist only as a gas or a solid, and if you had watched the video i provided you would see that not only is a working fluid necessary to dissolve the chemicals of life certain catalysts are also necessary for the reactions to occur. If you have evidence to the contrary then i suggest you show it.

 

But one thing is sure, large "clouds" of liquid water do not exist, water in a vacuum acts like frozen C02 does on earth, it's either gas or a solid, no liquid state.

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sigurdV, you are making a positive assertion, it's up to you to provide some sort of evidence to back up that assertion. The vacuum of space, and yes the clouds in space are a good vacuum, cannot support liquid water or any other fluid. for life to form it has to have a working fluid, water, ammonia, liquid hydrocarbons, sulfuric acid, but it has to be a liquid.

 

Liquids to not form in a vacuum and yes the clouds you talk about are very good vacuum. Then there is the problem of temperature, the clouds you refer to are close to absolute zero, any and all things are either a diffuse gas or frozen particles. Life requires a liquid of some sort and planetary surfaces are the only way to get fluids due to the atmospheric pressure.

 

I it a also true that the organic molecules found in these clouds are so diffuse any reactions that could happen in minutes on the earth would take a huge amount of time in molecular clouds and the organics found are an extreme far cry from life.

 

You made this assertion, you need to back it up with evidence, so far you have provided none.

 

The center of the cloud becomes the sun with its enormous temperature... are you saying its near environment has a zero temperature? That water can remain frozen in the sun or near the sun?

 

Close to the proto sun water should (after the proto sun becomes hot enough) be vaporised...but there should be a border region where water is hot but not boiling forming drops because of gravity and surface tension...and further out theres another border where drops of water have temperatures close to freezing...

 

How mäny Earth volumes has it, and for how long time will it exist?

 

Are you saying that lack of pressure prevents it from forming?

 

By the way.. WHERE IS YOUR DEFENCE FOR YOUR THEORY!?

 

You CLAIM that life has its origin here on Earth!

 

But your only evidence is the fact that there IS life on Earth...

 

Life that you dont prove cannot come from elsewhere!

 

The real question is not how well sigurdV can defend his theory,

 

it is how YOU ALL decide by the Scientific method between the two competing theories!

 

Well... that is: only if you are Scientists...Are You?

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I dont know where and how to check my assumptions...Should I then hide my thoughts until somebody else with a better reputation asks the same question? :angry:

No, you should ask rather than making, in large typeface, statements as if they are fact. I never know when you are asking a question or stating a fact. I am trying to understand what you are claiming, and your obfuscation makes it quite difficult to follow you.

 

Are you saying that lack of pressure prevents it [liquid water] from forming?

 

YES! This is precisely what we've been saying all along and you seem to be ignoring. Pressure, temperature, and volume are all interrelated. Take a look at these phase diagram for water, you will note that at lower pressures, there is no temperature at which liquid water is present. Moon and I are both operating under the assumption that life as we know it requires liquid water, therefore, life as we know it could not have forme3d in the protosolar nebula.

 

source

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So there are NO places in the cloud where pressure and temperature exceeds 0.00603 and 0.01 degrees?

 

There should be! Pressure and temperature varies in the cloud!

 

The sun and the planets form at approximately the same time...and they are a very long time forming!

 

So what was the pressure near and in the proto sun volume as the temperature reached 0.01 , and what was the pressures and temperatures near and in the places where planets were forming? High enough to allow liquid water in and around the volumes?

 

How much favorable space does that add up to? And how much time is involved? Can you find out?

 

You have convinced me that pressure is a factor to be considered, and does diminish the available space and time for life to originate in stellar clouds... But not by very much...

Compared with Earth!

 

But I will Diminish my hypothesis:

THERE WAS A LONG PERIOD WHEN A HUGE(compared to earth) VOLUME IN SPACE CONTAINING LIQUID WATER CONTAINING ORGANICS WAS EXPOSED TO LIGHTNING, AND LIFE ORIGINATED THERE!

Life started on Earth very soon after the earth was cool enough...so the time involved is small compared to the time in the stellar cloud...and the favorable volume at Earth is probably close to zero compared to the favorable volumes in our stellar cloud...AND the story in the cloud takes place EARLIER...

 

I think my case still is strong! So what are the good arguments for life originating on Earth?

 

That everybody assumes it does, cant be the answer! But what else is there? :)

Edited by sigurdV
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Most importantly, my standard caveat applies. I am not an astronomer, an astrophysicist, nor an astrobiologist.

 

So there are NO places in the cloud where pressure and temperature exceeds 0.00603 and 0.01 degrees?

 

There should be! Pressure and temperature varies in the cloud!

 

Perhaps. If you twist my arm, I'd even be tempted to agree. However, note that these isolated areas are far less than the vast volume you were previously expecting to serve as a nursery for the first instances of life, and as pressure is the "limiting variable" for liquid water, and that pressure requires accumulated mass in order to generate the necessary gravity, these isolated areas of both sufficient pressure and temperature correspond very well to planets and moons, not vast volumes of a solar nebula.

 

 

So what was the pressure near and in the proto sun volume as the temperature exceeded 0.01 , and what was the pressures and temperatures near and in the places where planets were forming?

 

High enough to allow liquid water in and around the volumes?

 

How much favorable space does that add up to?

 

And how much time is involved?

 

Can you find out?

 

Honestly, we're venturing too far from an amateur level of knowledge for me to feel comfortable in even speculating. I think you should find it instructive, though, to notice that even though the moon is relatively right next door to the Earth, and has approximately 1/8 the gravity of the Earth, nowhere on the moon would you expect to find liquid water. My contention all along has been not that abiogenesis must have taken place on (or in) the Earth - though this is the simplest assumption, but rather, abiogenesis must have taken place on (or in) a planet or moon. I am not aware of any reason to believe that abiogenesis could have taken place in a solar nebula.

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So there are NO places in the cloud where pressure and temperature exceeds 0.00603 and 0.01 degrees?

 

There should be! Pressure and temperature varies in the cloud!

 

The sun and the planets form at approximately the same time...and they are a very long time forming!

 

So what was the pressure near and in the proto sun volume as the temperature exceeded 0.01 , and what was the pressures and temperatures near and in the places where planets were forming?

 

High enough to allow liquid water in and around the volumes?

 

How much favorable space does that add up to?

 

And how much time is involved?

 

Can you find out?

 

sigurdV, I'll say it again, water cannot be a liquid at the pressures inside a nebula, ice sublimes directly into a gas, the only places where there would enough pressure to form liquid water are on planets, or for that matter any of the liquids that might support life, these substances do not exist as liquids in the environment of space. JMJones's graph demonstrated this very well. Just repeating your assertion over and over will not change the laws of physics.

 

You might a leg to stand if you specified comets, it's possible some of the largest ones might have had some liquid in their interiors but again planets provide vastly more water in the liquid stat than any possible nebula or comet. Some of the moons in the outer solar system might have oceans of water under their crusts and life might have started there as well but we won't know until we drill down to the water layers and see.

 

On top of that simply having water in it's liquid form doesn't guarantee life, the indications so far seem to point to the needs of inorganic substances as well to serve as catalysts, not to mention oceans that break on a shore line to break apart the lipid bubbles that form, yes you guessed it... in water

 

It is very probable that life required a synergy of many different pathways to evolve the first cells, the clouds in interstellar space are too thin and diffuse to allow the reactions necessary to produce anything but some of the simple chemicals life builds on when they are dissolved in a fluid.

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Perhaps what started my thinking has not been understood? Let me ask:

 

What is more difficult, creating the first cell or creating multicellular life?

 

Rather immediately after Earth was cool enough to sustain life, life was there...

But multicellular life had to wait a looong time! (If im correctly informed.)

 

What is wrong here I asked myself...

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Perhaps what started my thinking has not been understood? Let me ask:

 

What is more difficult, creating the first cell or creating multicellular life?

 

Rather immediately after Earth was cool enough to sustain life, life was there...

But multicellular life had to wait a looong time! (If im correctly informed.)

 

What is wrong here I asked myself...

 

 

I ask you what does this have to do with life forming in interstellar clouds?

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